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butter or lesser??????
http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/pet/3412326838.html (for pic)
I got a female ball python from a really nice guy from a website called platinumpythons.com. I wanted a lesser female to add to my collection, and saw he almost specialized in them. Here is his email to me from late 2011...."I do have a very nice female lesser platinum (#9C) available. She is from my #09 clutch of eight babies. Here is her info: Hatched: 11/14/11 Breeding: Spider x Lesser Platinum".
After looking at other lesser I started to doubt if i had a lesser, on world of ballpythons the pic there make it seem that indeed i have a butter. Anyone care to post their thoughts are welcome.
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Butters and lessers are generally considered the same morph, from different wild caught snakes.
Your picture didn't show up, but there is a good chance you will get both answers anyways. If you had a tub full of butters and lessers, I seriously doubt there is anyone who would separate them correctly.
If the breeder says it's a lesser, from a lesser, it's a lesser. At least that's my opinion *shrug* Sorry I couldn't be of more help :(
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Lessers and Butters are different lines of the same morph.
If the breeder said its a lesser, its a lesser.
Just like if you bought a *insert line* pastel, then that's what it is.
btw link the picture url, not the page the picture is on. :)
http://images.craigslist.org/3Kd3F43...23c55312e7.jpg
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Re: butter or lesser??????
and so are mojaves but the three look different from one another and all will produce a slightly different supper form (blue eyed)http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/pet/3412326838.html
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Re: butter or lesser??????
thanks btw for your comments and the url pic heads up!!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
No. Mojaves arent the same as butters and lessers.
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I'm going to let owal take this. As I'm on my phone and typing is slow and irritating.
All I will say is Congrats on your new lesser. :D
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Ok i know I'm the one asking for help but mojoves are the same allele (an alternative form of a gene) thats why they can all give "blue eyed lucys". so any two of the three or any combo of the three(butter, mojove, or lesser) will get a white snake
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoseyReps
I'm going to let owal take this. As I'm on my phone and typing is slow and irritating.
All I will say is Congrats on your new lesser. :D
no problem :)
While the original wild caught animals may of looked different, as we continue to breed them, we can easily see there are butter that look like the original lesser and lessers that look like the original butter. More than 1 gene goes into making how a snake looks and even that one gene can have different levels of expression by itself. That's where variation in any morph comes from. Pastels imo vary more than any other morph, doesn't mean they are different morphs.
You can check out this thread also, http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nd-lesser-vote
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
Ok i know I'm the one asking for help but mojoves are the same allele (an alternative form of a gene) thats why they can all give "blue eyed lucys". so any two of the three or any combo of the three(butter, mojove, or lesser) will get a white snake
You got the right idea :gj: I just want to correct the terms. Mojaves are a different allele. Lesser and Butter are the same allele. All 3 are the same gene.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
Ok i know I'm the one asking for help but mojoves are the same allele (an alternative form of a gene) thats why they can all give "blue eyed lucys". so any two of the three or any combo of the three(butter, mojove, or lesser) will get a white snake
We all know this and are not arguing that the 3 can produce a BEL. Mojave lies on the same loci as Butter/Lesser, which is why they are compatible for a homozygous form. But mojave is still a completely different mutation.
Mojos are different. Butter and lessers are exactly the same, just a different name. If you put these 3 snakes together, you probably couldn't tell which was the lesser and which was the butter.
Can you tell what the snakes below are?(specifically the left one)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...g/DSC_0767.jpg
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser
Mojaves are a different allele. Lesser and Butter are the same allele. All 3 are the same gene.
If mojaves were on a different allele they couldn't make a super with any of the other BEL genes :P
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by snakesRkewl
If mojaves were on a different allele they couldn't make a super with any of the other BEL genes :P
you're mixing up locus and allele. Locus is a location where a gene sits. Allele is a variation of a gene. Mojave and lesser are different alleles. They are the same gene, which allows the to make supers.
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Re: butter or lesser??????
I never thought of it that way........thanks for the feed back youre reply makes total since! When she gets breeding age and I mate her to my black pastel male (fingers crossed) I can hope for a blackplatium and not a blackbutter, between you and me the blackplatium looks cooler....lol....Thanks again!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Based on the great info/insight of "ohhwataloser" i can agree that butters and lessers have different allele from mojoves.......i dissagree however that butters and lessers are the exact same, cause a butter bee and a lesser bee, look totally different, the same with a lesser pastel and a butter pastel, black butter vs the black platinum; the list goes on and on. It, to me at least, seems the butter morph combos black color is blushed out or fadded, brown looking even, while morph combos with the lesser are darker where the black color comes in. Even with the blue eyed differ from one another depending on which ones are combined (slight purple coloration in the head area). So I guess the only true way of knowing is to wait and see if/when she breeds.....and if/when that happens I'll be more then happy to share my results with you all...!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
Even with the blue eyed differ from one another depending on which ones are combined (slight purple coloration in the head area).
Super Mojave will make a purple/grey headed snake, as for lesser and butter....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...r/_MG_4915.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...ut124341as.jpg
look the same to me. As for the combos you listed, just look at the lesser combos and see how many of them you would have to divide up to meet your idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
So I guess the only true way of knowing is to wait and see if/when she breeds.....and if/when that happens I'll be more then happy to share my results with you all...!
You already have your answer, it is a lesser, breeding doesn't tell you origin. You know your animal came originally from RDR's platinum. What it looks like has to do with all the breedings that have been done since then. It's not just the lesser gene making it look like that, there are potentially thousands of other genes. those other genes can tweak color blushing pattern ect.
we will however be more than happy to see what offspring you produce :)
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How many times over the years do you think that someone has bred these two morphs together and then incorrectly sold the offspring as a Lesser when it was really a Butter? What if this happened near the beginning of these projects before they were widely available to the public? Because of this, perhaps a few dozen of the first "Lessers" were actually Butters, and now a large portion of the Lessers/Butters in the world could be incorrectly labeled.
It's a good thing that they're the same morph and it doesn't matter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
...i dissagree however that butters and lessers are the exact same, cause a butter bee and a lesser bee, look totally different, the same with a lesser pastel and a butter pastel, black butter vs the black platinum; the list goes on and on. It, to me at least, seems the butter morph combos black color is blushed out or fadded, brown looking even, while morph combos with the lesser are darker where the black color comes in. Even with the blue eyed differ from one another depending on which ones are combined (slight purple coloration in the head area). So I guess the only true way of knowing is to wait and see if/when she breeds.....and if/when that happens I'll be more then happy to share my results with you all...!
The are exactly the same. The only difference is selective breeding of the lines to have a slight visual variation. This is like how Lemon pastels are bright yellow compared to the duller, but blushed out Graziani pastel lines. Not to mention the sandy coloration of Blonde pastels. No matter how variable they look, they're still all pastels in the end.
How many examples of all the different butter/lesser morphs and combos have you seen? The pictures on WOBP do not represent every example out there.
The differences you are seeing between black butters vs black platinums, pastel lessers vs pastel butters, butter bees vs lesser bees, etc etc are a direct heritable result of the individual parents and different examples of the morph. There are bright reduced butters, but there are also equally bright reduced lessers. Both morphs can also have really creamy busy examples too, and so on.
And when it comes to combos, you have to take parental looks into consideration as well. Both parents contribute to the offspring. A busy spider could have bred to a lesser for a busy lesser spider offspring compared to a reduced spider breeding to a butter for a more reduced butter spider offspring. A blushed out pastel bred to a lesser could have more blushed out offspring than a less blushed out pastel to a butter. A darker black pastel has influence as well as a browner black pastel.
In the end, they're the same mutation. Different lines with a lot of variation.
Its not like all people of the same race or ethnicity look exactly the same either.
Would you be able to list the butter or lessers in the pictures the people provided above(including mine)?
And purple headed BEL is characteristic of Super Mojaves. You don't see them in butter/lesserxMojo or butterxbutter/lesserxlesser gene BELs.
And what do you mean that you will have to wait until your snake breeds?:confused: You bought her as a lesser, so her offspring will be lesser or lesser combos..............
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Unless you sequence the alleles you won't know for sure they are the same. Crossing into different lines and observing the same phenotype with each allele definitely suggests they are the same or similar. That is they could be the same type of mutation. Maybe both alleles result in no protein but sequence wise the mutation is different. The Mojave allele could result in a partially functional protein. All conjecture until the gene is identified and the alleles sequenced. But you can get close to definitely knowing the answer with genetics.
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They do look the same, but a good lesser will always stand out. You guys make me want me lesser girl here more now lol.
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Re: butter or lesser??????
I'm no expert nor do I claim to be, but I think "spitzu" is the closest to the point I was trying to make. My conspiracy theory is that once upon a time a person/persons, found these two similar snakes could produce a white snake, so they started to breed for this white snake. In the interum the offspring of these snakes are hard to determine since they look so similar, (or the genes just get even harder to detect when combined), they are sold as a butter when it's a lesser or the other way around......Now John, Jo and Jane get into the "project" and John buys a lesser that's really a butter. Jo buys a butter that's really a lesser. Jane wants to make a few bucks cause she just got a new car loan and puts on craigslist that she has a butter (when she really has a lesser) since where she is butters cost more then lesser. Now we are where we are today, I CHALLENGE ALL WHO HAVE POSTED TO THIS THREAD OR ANYONE WHO'S HAD A QUESTION ON WHAT "IN MY OPINION" IS A PIC OF A "TRUE LESSER" AND A "TRUE BUTTER"......and the bee morphs as well as any other combo of the "lesser" or the "butter", to go to this website livingartreptiles.com and from the left side choose the "MORPH GALLERY"!
Think about it at the end of the day all the feedback I get is that you cannot tell them apart anyway so how the hell is everyone sure I have a lesser......LOL!
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I'm no expert nor do I claim to be, but I think "spitzu" is the closest to the point I was trying to make. My conspiracy theory is that once upon a time a person/persons, found these two similar snakes could produce a white snake, so they started to breed for this white snake. In the interum the offspring of these snakes are hard to determine since they look so similar, (or the genes just get even harder to detect when combined), they are sold as a butter when it's a lesser or the other way around......Now John, Jo and Jane get into the "project" and John buys a lesser that's really a butter. Jo buys a butter that's really a lesser. Jane wants to make a few bucks cause she just got a new car loan and puts on craigslist that she has a butter (when she really has a lesser) since where she is butters cost more then lesser. Now we are where we are today, I CHALLENGE ALL WHO HAVE POSTED TO THIS THREAD OR ANYONE WHO'S HAD A QUESTION ON WHAT "IN MY OPINION" IS A PIC OF A "TRUE LESSER" AND A "TRUE BUTTER"......and the bee morphs as well as any other combo of the "lesser" or the "butter", to go to this website livingartreptiles.com and from the left side choose the "MORPH GALLERY"!
Think about it at the end of the day all the feedback I get is that you cannot tell them apart anyway so how the hell is everyone sure I have a lesser......LOL!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
http://imageevent.com/livingartrepti...=0&w=1&s=0&z=2 (THE TRUE BUTTER's PIC...."IN MY OPINION")
http://imageevent.com/livingartrepti...=0&w=1&s=0&z=2 (THE TRUE LESSER's PIC...."IN MY OPINION")
Do a side by side notice how the butters black is browner, notice how the lesser's blacks are more rich.....now this is based on my theory that people are excepting the one for the other....! You decide!!!! I'm out to prove it!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
The proof is in clutch mates looking completely different, I looked before but couldn't find it, but there was a picture a couple years back of two snakes one looking very yellow and what everyone said was a typical butter back then and then one that looked like what was called a typical lesser back then. Later reviled that the two snakes were in fact clutchmates. Also as someone who has produced his fair share of lessers, I have had some more yellow, so with higher flames, some blushed out more than others, some with darker blacks. All father by the same snake. What I say comes from personal experience along with seeing tons of other examples. They are the same thing.
I also not sure what your challenge is supposed to prove? One example of each animal?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
I'm glad the lesser girl I'm getting looks like a true lesser in your opinion. :clap:
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
What about my lesser which has almost no black on him at all? I know he is a "true" lesser, I can't speak for my female, but she was sold as a lesser.
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
With your thought process, then I guess that means Lemon Pastels, Graziani Pastels, Citrus Pastels, and Bell Pastels must all be different morphs. They each have their own unique physical characteristic that defines that line of pastel. A quality Graziani looks nothing like a Lemon. Thoughts?
You need more examples other than 2 snakes. What you think is "true" may not be "true" to another person. The sample size is much too small to come to a conclusion.
The looks of the same morph or combo very greatly. There is no "set look", just guidelines.
Like I mentioned before, there are brighter, darker, clean, dirty, reduced, busy, etc etc, examples of Butters and Lessers. They can look totally alike and very different.
And like AWOL stated, the physical looks on a clutch of the same morph can very greatly, but in the end, they're still the same morph.
And the variance you are seeing in your two examples are based on individual parental influence***!
My lesser is a more yellow example of the morph. Typically people think "creamy" when they think lesser. And vice versa with Butter.
Does that mean it's not a "true" lesser?
I wish you luck on proving your theory. But I have to be honest, the outcome looks bleak.
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Quote:
The differences you are seeing between black butters vs black platinums, pastel lessers vs pastel butters, butter bees vs lesser bees, etc etc are a direct heritable result of the individual parents and different examples of the morph. There are bright reduced butters, but there are also equally bright reduced lessers. Both morphs can also have really creamy busy examples too, and so on.
And when it comes to combos, you have to take parental looks into consideration as well. Both parents contribute to the offspring. A busy spider could have bred to a lesser for a busy lesser spider offspring compared to a reduced spider breeding to a butter for a more reduced butter spider offspring. A blushed out pastel bred to a lesser could have more blushed out offspring than a less blushed out pastel to a butter. A darker black pastel has influence as well as a browner black pastel.
P.S. Thank you for the neg rep points. I guess the opinions, observations, and possible facts of others means nothing to you.
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by satomi325
With your thought process, then I guess that means Lemon Pastels, Graziani Pastels, Citrus Pastels, and Bell Pastels must all be different morphs. They each have their own unique physical characteristic that defines that line of pastel. A quality Graziani looks nothing like a Lemon. Thoughts?
You need more examples other than 2 snakes. What you think is "true" may not be "true" to another person. The sample size is much too small to come to a conclusion.
The looks of the same morph or combo very greatly. There is no "set look", just guidelines.
Like I mentioned before, there are brighter, darker, clean, dirty, reduced, busy, etc etc, examples of Butters and Lessers. They can look totally alike and very different.
And like AWOL stated, the physical looks on a clutch of the same morph can very greatly, but in the end, they're still the same morph.
And the variance you are seeing in your two examples are based on individual parental influence***!
My lesser is a more yellow example of the morph. Typically people think "creamy" when they think lesser. And vice versa with Butter.
Does that mean it's not a "true" lesser?
I wish you luck on proving your theory. But I have to be honest, the outcome looks bleak.
***
P.S. Thank you for the neg rep points. I guess the opinions, observations, and possible facts of others means nothing to you.
He seriously left you negative rep for that? Wow. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as abuse of the rep system...if it's not, it should be. Negative rep for a well written response and opinion...awesome move guy. :rolleyes:
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Re: butter or lesser??????
This whole thing isn't meant to be a dis to anyone, so if you take it that way I will offer an apology, but also ask you to you check your ego....it's a bad thing to have as a scientist.....on a lighter note all I'm saying is that I have a simple scientific hypothesis.....at the end of the day that's what this section is all about right???? Morphs and Genetics. So i was under the impression that everyone here was a "herpetologist" by love!!!!!
Two points.......My Hypothesis is that somewhere down the line we "switched them at birth"...lol (for all the 80's babies out there!!!) because they do look so similar!
1st is Gene's....Im a black guy....my wife is Mexican....LOL I know Im a walking comedy act. So gene's are something I see in my childern, I have three. My oldest has dark skin and curly hair, and tall and thin like me. My middle child is very light skin and also has curly hair, but is a little thicker and shorter. My youngest at this point in his life doesn't even look mixed, and looks very much like his great grandfather on his moms side. SOOOOO....LOL the point I'm trying to make is us "BLACKS" come in shades of very dark to very light. But we are all "Black", and the same can be said with my Mexican family. PREGUNTAS? IF THEY ARE THE SAME WHY GIVE THEM TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT TITLES???? MY FIRST QUESTION?
2nd is IF THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT TYPES THEN MY HYPOTHESIS CAN BE PROVEN, AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO BREED A BETTER LINE OF BOTH...and isn't that part of being a scientist? By thinking for yourself and questioning authority....."WE" once accepted that the earth was the center of the universe, further study changed this, that leeches and bloodletting worked as cures for diseases...this list goes on and on..
So again I asked to see what my "Community" had to say, and got just the responses I thought I'd get....Now I can start to "chase the ghost" and who knows maybe it will prove fruitless! Or maybe I'll give us some cool results....that part of the fun...Right?
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Re: butter or lesser??????
But by your own admission - in your own family your children represent the full spectrum.
Lessers and butters do the same thing. They both range from very bright to very dark - because they are the same thing.
Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
But by your own admission - in your own family your children represent the full spectrum.
Lessers and butters do the same thing. They both range from very bright to very dark - because they are the same thing.
Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg
IMHO - if there's any confusion, it's because some guy buys a female lesser, but decides the breeder doesn't know what they're talking about so they're going to call their lesser a butter and market as one instead. Sound familiar? Just sayin......
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Not to be a thorn or anything...but if you are out to line breed and prove one way or another, shouldn't you have got a lesser from RDR directly an offspring of platty daddy? I mean...that's like science 101. Get reliable, definate subjects...if you're asking about the possibility of your snake then you are not proving anything, just guessing with what you've got. That is not good science.
Unless I'm missing something?
Also, its generally frowned upon to go tossing around negative rep because you don't agree with someone. Neg rep is for rude, or harmful replies. Not a cry button when someone states their opinion on your question.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
the point I'm trying to make is us "BLACKS" come in shades of very dark to very light. But we are all "Black".
Substitute "black" with lesser/butter and that's exactly what I was pointing out.
The reason for the separate names is due to separate founders. Two different imports of the same genetic mutation. Two different founders who came up with their own names. Same reason why there are many lines of the same morph with different names. (Example, Orangebelly, Bling, Amir line are all Yellowbellies)
Are you actually a scientist? Some of your hypothesis and theories make no sense in this topic.
If you say certain animals were switched at birth, then why do siblings vary so much? For example, an animal that you can visually identify as a "true lesser" by your standard could have indeed been hatched out of a butter with "true butter" looking siblings. Does that make that odd animal a lesser or butter?
Either way. If you're really intent on a legitimate scientific discovery regarding lesser and butters, get a large sample of both to DNA sequence. Because phenotypic comparison will do you no good due to the variation.....
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Re: butter or lesser??????
TO "satomi325".........
I'm sorry if I gave you a "dis" or whatever on this site, I'm new to this whole blogging thing and thought I was sending you a thumbs down on your reply, . As breeders we should never be close minded, always be a student, always be willing to be wrong!
I'm gonna hit you with a radical thought....just follow me....with an open mind!
You just talked about all the different lines of pastels, this is my point in a nutshell.....I could be wrong and it's no shame in that...but for them to be visibly different, someone must breed to prove out these differences within the same line. Everyone keeps telling me that lessers, and butters are the same.....so just like lemon pastels or blonde pastels are proven.....my hypothesis is I can prove out a purer versions of these wonderful morphs! I feel that somewhere down the line we switched them up due to them looking so much alike or due to inter breeding between the two, trying to get a white snake and it's skewed the differences in the lines. Breeding over time is the proof, dogs are a nice example of this. All wolves, but I like short tails and hair, so I breed for this trait and down the line I come out with a boxer. Crazy things have happend!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
point well taken roseyreps on the neg rep....I didn't know the "rules" about that till just today and didn't mean to dis anyone....
and boo to what you say about proving nothing, cause at the end of the day unless you have a degree in genetic science no ones an expert. I trust my community, so if someone sells me a lesser I turst they are telling the truth, but whats wrong with questioning the norm? The point is again.........and I could be wrong...is that we've been calling one the other so long that we've lost sight of what makes them a butter or a lesser. Educated guess, so if I breed for the traits, the rest will take care of it's self right? Lemurs, K-9's, even humans all over time can be "proven out". Close mindedness is a cancer, please don't let it in our community!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
point well taken roseyreps on the neg rep....I didn't know the "rules" about that till just today and didn't mean to dis anyone....
and boo to what you say about proving nothing, cause at the end of the day unless you have a degree in genetic science no ones an expert. I trust my community, so if someone sells me a lesser I turst they are telling the truth, but whats wrong with questioning the norm? The point is again.........and I could be wrong...is that we've been calling one the other so long that we've lost sight of what makes them a butter or a lesser. Educated guess, so if I breed for the traits, the rest will take care of it's self right? Lemurs, K-9's, even humans all over time can be "proven out". Close mindedness is a cancer, please don't let it in our community!
You are proving nothing by starting with unpure lines. For all you know your "lesser" could be a "butter". They are so similar, how is anyone to know? The only GOOD science, is by getting one directly from Ralph Davis, directly from his Platty Daddy. Other than that, your theory of dirty lines means that any other breeder could have a butter instead. So, yes. It is bad science, and it IS proving nothing because you are not starting with good BASE science.
I didn't say you cannot prove a line, that's obviously true. You cannot however, prove a certain lines traits vs another similar / exact if you are unsure of what you're starting with in the first place. That is just common sense. So boo all you like, just know no one is going to take your "science" seriously if you turn your nose up at starting correctly.
If you trusted your community, and your breeder, than why did you ask what you had in the first place? Obviously you don't trust the community, because you're saying the community / breeders have muddled the lines and now can no longer tell the difference. This is not a bad theory, but you are flip flopping on what point you are striving for. Stick with one or the other until you prove either right or wrong.
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To add to that, I am all for line breeding and proving traits. You are not proving something new though, instead you are trying to rewrite what has been done to prove a difference in two similar if not the same morphs that already exist. To do this right, you need to start at the beginning. Not the middle or end.
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Re: butter or lesser??????
FYI I'm just a regular guy who loves snakes and thinking outside the norm....I again make no claims to know anything...hence the word educated GUESS
I don't dissagree with any of the points you make about different lines!
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just forget what you know for a sec about morphs and all you were thought.....open mind, clean slate! :)
you got a yellow snake and blue snake, and you find that by breeding them you can get a snake that is green. So you do this, and get a few green snakes, you would still have some come out blue and some come out yellow. I would think that even the ones that look yellow still cary some blue in them so now no matter what they look like they are forever mixed. So no matter what it mates with, it can/and will pop out babies that have any combo of the "original" mom and dad. Making the bloodline forever mixed. Now for the yellowgreen babies and all shades in the middle can either be call one or the other. Is our president "Black" or "White" or mixed and what does that make his daughters? What if they have kids with Black men, would that make our president grandkids less White?...LOL people even question this. Just a idea, it can grow, not an absolute! Taken lesser that look one way and butters that look another, Good ole "selective breed" can prove out anything.....and isn't that part of the fun? Never knowing what you're gonna see pop out the egg?!!!!
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Are you even reading any of my responses? Line breeding is great, proving out a line is awesome. But to prove out differences in similar / same morphs, you need to start with that specific morph. The PUREST.
If you are saying you want to take on line breeding lessers or butters because you think your selective breeding can make a better line, that is great. Breeding the highest contrast or cleanest patterned or whathaveyou. That is fine, nothing wrong there. But if you are insisting that you are line breeding to prove the difference between these two morphs, it is kind of a huge deal your NOT starting with a first generation lesser from RDR...
This is my last attempt to try and get the point across...I feel like I have repeated myself 3 different times with 3 different wordings and still you are not grasping what I'm trying to say.
Line breed all you like and make a beautiful line, but that will not prove anything about the two morphs. Sorry. I'm sure you will prove out some stellar line, but it won't show anything towards the original discussion of butter vs lesser. That is not me being close-minded, that is you not comprehending the process of starting from the beginning. I'm all for proving out the difference in the butter and lesser, I think it would be very neat. But I think you're going about it the wrong way to be taken seriously about your endeavors.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
point well taken roseyreps on the neg rep....I didn't know the "rules" about that till just today and didn't mean to dis anyone....
and boo to what you say about proving nothing, cause at the end of the day unless you have a degree in genetic science no ones an expert. I trust my community, so if someone sells me a lesser I turst they are telling the truth, but whats wrong with questioning the norm? The point is again.........and I could be wrong...is that we've been calling one the other so long that we've lost sight of what makes them a butter or a lesser. Educated guess, so if I breed for the traits, the rest will take care of it's self right? Lemurs, K-9's, even humans all over time can be "proven out". Close mindedness is a cancer, please don't let it in our community!
Not a geneticists, but I am a research biologist by career.
And it's not that I'm closed minded, its that some of your theories make no sense and contradict each other. Research and develop those thoughts more on these animals, then present your theories again. You're going into this blindly.
Research more on reptile breeding or genetics in general. From your example, a green snake parent can have yellow or blue offspring. Those offspring cannot carry the green gene.
Here is it in BP terms: a pastel + lesser = pastel lesser. The pastel lesser can have pastel and lesser offspring when bred to a blank slate normal. Those offspring do not carry 'pastel lesser' so they cannot have pastel lesser hatchlings with a normal. And the pastel offspring does not carry any lesser genes. And vice versa. Otherwise it would be a pastel lesser.
Here is some insight. Most lines of morph are not stemmed from the same animal. All the pastel lines did not branch from one pastel here in the states. They are from separate imported animals with the same mutation of different variation.
What do you mean " we've lost sight of what makes them a butter or a lesser. "? Do you know what the difference is? Its the name.
What gives you the right to deem what is true and what is not? Perhaps Ralph Davis and the Bells deemed the lesser and butter to look similar since they are the same mutation? How do you know that the original Lesser and Butter looked the same or different? How can you have a designated look for them?
I agree with everything Rosey said.
Yes selective breeding of traits can happen, but that doesn't mean they are different. And what happens when you breed that lesser or butter to another morph that ruins the 'true' appearance? A 'true' lesser to a cinnamon could have 'true' butter looking offspring.
Does that mean you can only breed one 'true' lesser to another 'true' lesser to get 'purebreds'?
(The term pure bred would be wrong since captive ball pythons are no different than wild balls other than their paint job).
Again, do some research and develop your theories even more. As of now, they make no sense. But I can see where you are going somewhat.........
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Re: butter or lesser??????
and again roseyreps, we are all on the honnor system I thought.....I have yet to meet a breeder(not saying some don't) who does test tube gene/dna and blood studies on all their snake. I'm not flip flopping I'm just again asking question? Isn't that what a true hypothesis is? to see if it stands up to a scientific method? I do trust the guy I got the snake from and the herp community, but I also have an open mind. How would anyone in fact know they were getting what they wanted without dna testing? Trust and the honnor system is very important in what we do, im sure we can all agree on this! One word HETS...lol....
The question I ask(AND PLEASE BEFORE ANYONES ELES MAKES A POST, HEAR THE QUESTION PLEASE!!!)is did someone, somewhere make a mistake with what is what (muddied up the lines) and now everyones EGO is letting them make claims that are in themselves just guesses. The point AGAIN is that no ONE person can say with 100% certainty what I have....and that's the RUBB and the funniest part of this whole thread. I show one pic of my snake, and one person says "trust the breeder", while another says butter, because of this traits or another says lesser because of this.....look at the many post on this thread or this topic, at my humble best I cannot call one person wrong or another right. AGAIN no matter who's line I start with anyone can question it one way or another, because as I've been told over and over and over and over that they are the same or that you could put a 6 of each in a pic and no one of us could guess them apart! So what I want to do is good ole trait "selective breeding". Getting all the butters and lesser I can a breeding for differences, to see what I can get. For some reason I feel like some of you are not seeing the forest for the trees. My guess is if i breed anything long enough no matter how dirty the genes are to start, I can breed traits out and/or in.....and that not bad science...that just science.
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Does anyone have pictures of "butter lessers". I wondered if you can gauge the genetics based off percentages of hatchlings in a butter x lesser pairing. But world of ball pythons states it would be 25% of each normal, lesser, butter and butter lesser, but there are no pictures.
I'm not all up and up on Bp genetics, but isn't this something that can be determined with breeding lesser x lesser; butter x butter, and butter x lesser? If there really is a noticeable difference, then doesn't that determine that they are indeed different? What do super butters, super lessers, and butter lessers look like in comparison to each other?
I mean, genetic percentages and combination colorings should be the telling factor, not just what butters or lessers look like individually.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satomi325
Research more on reptile breeding or genetics in general. From your example, a green snake parent can have yellow or blue offspring. Those offspring cannot carry the green gene.
Here is it in BP terms: a pastel + lesser = pastel lesser. The pastel lesser can have pastel and lesser offspring when bred to a blank slate normal. Those offspring do not carry 'pastel lesser' so they cannot have pastel lesser hatchlings with a normal. And the pastel offspring does not carry any lesser genes. And vice versa. Otherwise it would be a pastel lesser.
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To elaborate on this, your blue/green/yellow example only applies to recessive genes.
Example, a albino to a normal. All offspring will be normal looking that carry the albino gene.
There are different forms of genes. They do different things in the ball pythons and with each other.
Key words to learn: Dominant, co dominant, recessive, homozygous, heterozygous.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
But by your own admission - in your own family your children represent the full spectrum.
Lessers and butters do the same thing. They both range from very bright to very dark - because they are the same thing.
Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...serFemale4.jpg
You still haven't answered my question.....
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
and again roseyreps, we are all on the honnor system I thought.....I have yet to meet a breeder(not saying some don't) who does test tube gene/dna and blood studies on all their snake. I'm not flip flopping I'm just again asking question? Isn't that what a true hypothesis is? to see if it stands up to a scientific method? I do trust the guy I got the snake from and the herp community, but I also have an open mind. How would anyone in fact know they were getting what they wanted without dna testing? Trust and the honnor system is very important in what we do, im sure we can all agree on this! One word HETS...lol....
The question I ask(AND PLEASE BEFORE ANYONES ELES MAKES A POST, HEAR THE QUESTION PLEASE!!!)is did someone, somewhere make a mistake with what is what (muddied up the lines) and now everyones EGO is letting them make claims that are in themselves just guesses. The point AGAIN is that no ONE person can say with 100% certainty what I have....and that's the RUBB and the funniest part of this whole thread. I show one pic of my snake, and one person says "trust the breeder", while another says butter, because of this traits or another says lesser because of this.....look at the many post on this thread or this topic, at my humble best I cannot call one person wrong or another right. AGAIN no matter who's line I start with anyone can question it one way or another, because as I've been told over and over and over and over that they are the same or that you could put a 6 of each in a pic and no one of us could guess them apart! So what I want to do is good ole trait "selective breeding". Getting all the butters and lesser I can a breeding for differences, to see what I can get. For some reason I feel like some of you are not seeing the forest for the trees. My guess is if i breed anything long enough no matter how dirty the genes are to start, I can breed traits out and/or in.....and that not bad science...that just science.
As I said, selective breed all you want. If you are not starting from the beginning, you are not proving anything about the mentioned morphs, and are just proving out a new line of an already existing morph. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!
Ralph Davis has the original platty daddy. He has the beginning. If you want to prove the differences, stop buying middle of the line or F9999999's and start buying from the ORIGINS of the genes. Ralph Davis for Lessers, and the Bells for butters. Anything other than that and you are just line breeding, not proving. This is your problem, you are confusing the two. Do you want to make lessers and butters better by breeding in or out traits that you believe make them better? GREAT! That's line breeding, and you're on the right track! Do you want to prove to the world that lessers and butters are different morphs entirely, that just simply got muddied with time? Then see my other 4 posts... You want to do both? Super awesome! Still need to start at the beginning.
It matters A LOT whose line you start with. You start with joe schmoe, and the possibility of mud is high. You start from the originators of the gene, you are starting with the original genes. Period. I believe it is you who are being close minded at this point, we are trying to set you on the right path to prove your hypothesis, it is you who are failing to see that there is a path at all.
We're not telling you anything about lessers and butters being same/different etc, we're saying your method is flawed, and if you want to prove something, you need to correct it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eskye
Does anyone have pictures of "butter lessers". I wondered if you can gauge the genetics based off percentages of hatchlings in a butter x lesser pairing. But world of ball pythons states it would be 25% of each normal, lesser, butter and butter lesser, but there are no pictures.
I'm not all up and up on Bp genetics, but isn't this something that can be determined with breeding lesser x lesser; butter x butter, and butter x lesser? If there really is a noticeable difference, then doesn't that determine that they are indeed different? What do super butters, super lessers, and butter lessers look like in comparison to each other?
I mean, genetic percentages and combination colorings should be the telling factor, not just what butters or lessers look like individually.
All are pure white. People don't like breeding for super lessers, super butters, or lesser butter due to the increased chance for eye deformaties. Any of these 3 have the potential to get bug eyes, which is why mojave x lesser/butter is more common.
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by eskye
Does anyone have pictures of "butter lessers". I wondered if you can gauge the genetics based off percentages of hatchlings in a butter x lesser pairing. But world of ball pythons states it would be 25% of each normal, lesser, butter and butter lesser, but there are no pictures.
I'm not all up and up on Bp genetics, but isn't this something that can be determined with breeding lesser x lesser; butter x butter, and butter x lesser? If there really is a noticeable difference, then doesn't that determine that they are indeed different? What do super butters, super lessers, and butter lessers look like in comparison to each other?
I mean, genetic percentages and combination colorings should be the telling factor, not just what butters or lessers look like individually.
They all are pure white with blue eyes ;)
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Then that sounds like enough determination to me, haha! From reading this whole thread it sounds like the only differences are between coloration in lines. If it all produces the same thing, doesn't that mean it shares the same gene? Anyone got a DNA test lab? Find the gene!
As an outsider, I am very convinced by the argument that they're the same. I see flaws in the opposition.
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OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL
Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
Rabernet....IDK......thats why I aksed in the first place......I think...I did a bad job of explaning myself
I started out just like anyone else who doesn't know something I asked! So I'll start over one by one.....
first are butters and lessers the same but with different name?
and if they are the same what makes todays butter a butter and what makes todays lesser a lesser?
and last based on them being the same breed as roseyrep said doing some line breeding to make the better in each aspect....
And to you again roseyrep, I think I at last got my two part point accross as posted above, I wasn't trying to confused the two, guess i did a poor job of explaning myself....BUT I am kinda turned off by your statement (and I don't want to put words in your mouth) the only people we should trust is the people who have the original line of snakes. So I'ma let that go....cause to me thats a slap in the face of anyone besides Ralph Davis who breeds snakes, and again back to the trust thing, if you sell me a snake and tell me it's from the Ralph Davis line, your rep as a snake dealer is on the line, and the rest of the herp world should trust you...or maybe I just live with rose colored glasses! Cause at the end of the day if Ralph Davis is the original breeder of these fine snakes we'd also have to trust in him!
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Re: butter or lesser??????
point well taken, just trying my best to show no matter what a mix is a mix....nothing is 100% in genes, thats the whole hitler pure race speak! so if I show a Black man on the outside doesn't mean that in my history I'm not mixed! I came here to find out first what the difference between a lesser and a butter was....and the fact that I got so many different responces sparked my scientific mind and now we are here...LOL
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Re: butter or lesser??????
Quote:
Originally Posted by treachery
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL
Which is the lesser and which is the butter?
Rabernet....IDK......thats why I aksed in the first place......I think...I did a bad job of explaning myself
I started out just like anyone else who doesn't know something I asked! So I'll start over one by one.....
first are butters and lessers the same but with different name?
and if they are the same what makes todays butter a butter and what makes todays lesser a lesser?
and last based on them being the same breed as roseyrep said doing some line breeding to make the better in each aspect....
And to you again roseyrep, I think I at last got my two part point accross as posted above, I wasn't trying to confused the two, guess i did a poor job of explaning myself....BUT I am kinda turned off by your statement (and I don't want to put words in your mouth) the only people we should trust is the people who have the original line of snakes. So I'ma let that go....cause to me thats a slap in the face of anyone besides Ralph Davis who breeds snakes, and again back to the trust thing, if you sell me a snake and tell me it's from the Ralph Davis line, your rep as a snake dealer is on the line, and the rest of the herp world should trust you...or maybe I just live with rose colored glasses! Cause at the end of the day if Ralph Davis is the original breeder of these fine snakes we'd also have to trust in him!
I trust the breeder's I buy from that they are what they say they are. I am not trying to prove a difference though, or claiming they are different and wanting to prove that we have muddied the water. That was you ;) So yes, if you want to prove their differences, the only people you should get your starters from are the ones stated. It's the only way to be 100% sure. You can ask anyone on here who has seen my recent posts about my enchi, I trust my breeders to a fault even :P
So no, I did not say we should not trust people. I said if YOU think the lines are muddied, YOU need to buy directly from the source to be sure. I'm perfectly happy, and believe 1000% (exaggeration is fun!) that my Lesser Pastel girl is a lesser pastel. I got her from GCR, not RDR. I am not the one doubting the lines though ;)
You misinterpret my point, and that's ok. I'll also try and make them more clear. Trust your breeders.
When speaking of science, and being certain, you have to get from the source. Preferably one of the original wild import clutches, not just any lesser/butter from them.
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