Where do you sell most of your normal hatchlings?

Just wondering where most of you sell your Normal Hatchlings, I'm finding it fairly tough to find people to buy them in my area. Mostly for the lack of reptile owners and being in small town Iowa. All info is useful!

Craigslist tends to be the easiest here. I do make sure I test the new owners first so they know what they are doing. Some local reptile shops will buy them as well. Oddly enough, my males always go first, go figure. If you get stuck with a female it's never really a bad thing :)

Other.... Classifieds

I haven't started breeding yet, but I've got my plan. We'll see how that goes lol.

My plan is to offer female normals on the website / ads with my morphs. Then, both on craigslist. Remaining normals from there the males will be sold to the local shops and the females will stay with me until someone wants them. I've already spoken to one of the two local shops and they are good to go for buying babies. Going to the other shop tonight to get mice and will check with them as well.

I like having my ducks in a row well before the time comes :D

Pet stores, locals who do shows, friends and friends of friends.

Pet store and craigslist, I was actually shocked at how quickly they went after I put an ad on craigslist. Course I only had 7 to begin with.

If you do craigslist do be sure to check what they know about ball pythons, so many people wanted to house them with other snakes, one said they didn't want their carpet python to be lonely..

You could also just go with super forms or visual recessives, that gets you out of the "here, take my snakes!...please?" situation.

I was wondering, does anyone euthanize normals?

Reason being, if you can't find a good home for them then death by euthanasia would be much more humane than death by starvation, lack of heat, disease, lack of humidity, etc.

We purposefully are going with pairings that will at least throw pastel into everything this way we can get the animals into hands of competant owners. I always find that the cheapest of animals (normal BPs, cheap Monitor species, turtles, etc) are the most abused/neglected :(.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

You could also just go with super forms or visual recessives, that gets you out of the "here, take my snakes!...please?" situation.

I was wondering, does anyone euthanize normals?

Reason being, if you can't find a good home for them then death by euthanasia would be much more humane than death by starvation, lack of heat, disease, lack of humidity, etc.

We purposefully are going with pairings that will at least throw pastel into everything this way we can get the animals into hands of competant owners. I always find that the cheapest of animals (normal BPs, cheap Monitor species, turtles, etc) are the most abused/neglected :(.

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why would they be starving, cold, and disease-ridden?

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Originally Posted by wwmjkd

why would they be starving, cold, and disease-ridden?

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Well, I might be wrong so feel free to correct me since I'm new to BPs. I've seen normals being handed out like candy at expos before and the ones that are on tables are no questions asked $5-15 purchases.

If folks just hand them out to whomever because they need to move them due to lack of rack space they will more often then not end up in the hands of people who will not treat them right.

I've seen this plenty of times with leopard geckos and crested geckos, folks would almost rather pay the replacement cost of $5-25 for the geckos instead of say....actually keeping them in proper conditions so they wouldn't die.

It is much less likely that someone will abuse a snake that is more expensive. Who pays for say a Killer Spinner at $3500 and then treats it terrible, no one. Also, you aren't hard pressed to clear out your rack of Killer Spinners so you can take the time to make sure the person your selling to knows their stuff.

IMO people that abuse animals don't care about the price. If they have the money to buy an expensive animal they'll do it. And if they want to hurt the animal, they'll hurt them.

Oh god I hope no one culls normals that are by products of breeding another morph. If someone breeds a snake they should be aware they might get normals and should be ready to accommodate them right?

for some of the breeders out there, they have other snakes.
Some of these snakes, eat other snakes!!!
No more abundance of normals!!
Some may be offended by this, in the long run, it is just food for another snake.

If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
You breed king snakes, great source of food. Cheap to produce.
Economically, you can't beat it.

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Originally Posted by snakeman13

for some of the breeders out there, they have other snakes.
Some of these snakes, eat other snakes!!!
No more abundance of normals!!
Some may be offended by this, in the long run, it is just food for another snake.

If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
You breed king snakes, great source of food. Cheap to produce.
Economically, you can't beat it.

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At least they have some sort of purpose. Oh god that sounded terribad bit yeah. I was thinking along the lines of: I don't need this, out the trash it goes. Or something like that.

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Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

IMO people that abuse animals don't care about the price. If they have the money to buy an expensive animal they'll do it. And if they want to hurt the animal, they'll hurt them.

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This. When I was in the market for red ackies a few years back we went to the Daytona show. In the entire expo, there was one vendor, who had ONE red ackie. I was pointed towards the cage, ran over there and was impatiently standing behind an older woman and what I presumed to be her grandson (looked to be around 8yrs old). They bought the ackie ($400 or $450 I believe). Later on at the show I happened to be standing next to the women at another table, so I leaned over and asked her if she would mind showing me the ackie, as I had never seen one in person. She said "Sure hun! Let me get him" She then proceeded to scrounge around in the free gift bag and pull out a deli cup. I couldn't really see him because of the paper towel, and I said "That's alright! I appreciate you trying" And she said "Hold on a minute hunny *Shakes the cup* I'll get him out of them towels *shakes*" Mortified, I begged her to stop and continued to say I really appreciated it but it was best for the baby to stay hidden. She said alright, shoved him back in the bag hanging loosely on her arm and went on her way. I cried, like seriously...I was that girl at the reptile show crying in the corner. I couldn't believe it.

So no, just because someone spends a good chunk of change on a pet, doesn't mean they are going to care for it properly. Better chance? Sure, but definitely not a promise.

I would never euthanize a normal just because it was a normal. I plan on keeping my normals if I cannot find them homes that I believe will do well. Does that guarantee survival and optimal living conditions? Heck no. But it's a chance we all take when selling any of the babies.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

This. When I was in the market for red ackies a few years back we went to the Daytona show. In the entire expo, there was one vendor, who had ONE red ackie. I was pointed towards the cage, ran over there and was impatiently standing behind an older woman and what I presumed to be her grandson (looked to be around 8yrs old). They bought the ackie ($400 or $450 I believe). Later on at the show I happened to be standing next to the women at another table, so I leaned over and asked her if she would mind showing me the ackie, as I had never seen one in person. She said "Sure hun! Let me get him" She then proceeded to scrounge around in the free gift bag and pull out a deli cup. I couldn't really see him because of the paper towel, and I said "That's alright! I appreciate you trying" And she said "Hold on a minute hunny *Shakes the cup* I'll get him out of them towels *shakes*" Mortified, I begged her to stop and continued to say I really appreciated it but it was best for the baby to stay hidden. She said alright, shoved him back in the bag hanging loosely on her arm and went on her way. I cried, like seriously...I was that girl at the reptile show crying in the corner. I couldn't believe it.

So no, just because someone spends a good chunk of change on a pet, doesn't mean they are going to care for it properly. Better chance? Sure, but definitely not a promise.

I would never euthanize a normal just because it was a normal. I plan on keeping my normals if I cannot find them homes that I believe will do well. Does that guarantee survival and optimal living conditions? Heck no. But it's a chance we all take when selling any of the babies.

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Wow that is very very VERY disturbing. Did I mention it was disturbing? I had a lady with three shih tzus come in every 3 months. She was very wealthy. But the dogs were in terrible condition. It took me 6 hours to brush out one dog. They were matted down to the skin, feces and urine matted into the mats. And even worse she insisted we keep a show cut instead of a puppy cut. Augh... Some people don't even realize what the hell they're doing or the fact that they're abusing animals...! /endrant

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Well, I might be wrong so feel free to correct me since I'm new to BPs. I've seen normals being handed out like candy at expos before and the ones that are on tables are no questions asked $5-15 purchases.

If folks just hand them out to whomever because they need to move them due to lack of rack space they will more often then not end up in the hands of people who will not treat them right.

I've seen this plenty of times with leopard geckos and crested geckos, folks would almost rather pay the replacement cost of $5-25 for the geckos instead of say....actually keeping them in proper conditions so they wouldn't die.

It is much less likely that someone will abuse a snake that is more expensive. Who pays for say a Killer Spinner at $3500 and then treats it terrible, no one. Also, you aren't hard pressed to clear out your rack of Killer Spinners so you can take the time to make sure the person your selling to knows their stuff.

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Yeah you may want to stick to geckos if you are already talking about euthanizing normal ball pythons. I understand where you are coming from but that should never be an option.

To the OP, I have no problem selling normals. I mostly trade them for rats at a local pet shop. If you don't have that available to you look at the classifieds there is always someone willing to purchase entire clutches and so forth. Make some connections no need to euthanize.

Sure, theres always exceptions to the rule. I was not trying to draw a causal line between low cost and abuse only a correlation.

In the same way that I'm sure you could point to me cases where people crash their cars on purpose but the majority of people who invest that kind of money will do everything in their power to prevent an accident. More so if they have spent a considerable amount of their income on it.

Now if you started offering ferraris for free and lets say there was no personal risk of injury. I guarantee you that you would see a huge spike in the number of ferraris purposefully driven to extreme speeds, carelessly driven, or crashed on purpose.

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Originally Posted by joebad976

Yeah you may want to stick to geckos if you are already talking about euthanizing normal ball pythons. I understand where you are coming from but that should never be an option.

To the OP, I have no problem selling normals. I mostly trade them for rats at a local pet shop. If you don't have that available to you look at the classifieds there is always someone willing to purchase entire clutches and so forth. Make some connections no need to euthanize.

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:colbert: And you may want to read my original post where I said.

"We purposefully are going with pairings that will at least throw pastel into everything this way we can get the animals into hands of competant owners. I always find that the cheapest of animals (normal BPs, cheap Monitor species, turtles, etc) are the most abused/neglected :(."

I would never euthanize normals. I'd rather off to my friends and family that would love to have them for free before that ever happens.



Sent from iPhone 5 using tapatalk :)

You can't make a correlation without data. But besides the points, it depends on how much they value something. I have friends that drive $200,000 cars that don't care if they crash it while they cherish a dog yet adopted from the shelter for $150 dollars. Or one of my family friends euthanized his great dame that costed him $1500 because he didn't want to deal with taking care of the dog after surgery. Also I know people that take very good care of whatever they buy (expensive or not). If the person buys a snake to see it as a thing and not a livin animal then they won't give a flying feather if it does or not.

I sell normals like hot cakes on craigslist!

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

:colbert: And you may want to read my original post where I said.

"We purposefully are going with pairings that will at least throw pastel into everything this way we can get the animals into hands of competant owners. I always find that the cheapest of animals (normal BPs, cheap Monitor species, turtles, etc) are the most abused/neglected :(."

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Right you did say that and when you produce all these pastels they will be selling for about the same price a normal does so will you then consider them the cheapest of animals as well?

As breeders we should educate our buyers to ensure the animal is not abused/neglected. Granted this may not cure abuse/neglect it is still better than euthanizing.

Pastels already are as cheap as normals :( especially if you compare breeder priced pastels to pet store priced normals. You'll get the pastels as cheap or cheaper. (depending on the pet store etc, but I've seen hatchling normals for $69-89 and pastels from breeders as low as $50-75)

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Pastels already are as cheap as normals :( especially if you compare breeder priced pastels to pet store priced normals. You'll get the pastels as cheap or cheaper. (depending on the pet store etc, but I've seen hatchling normals for $69-89 and pastels from breeders as low as $50-75)

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True but there is a bit of a mark-up on the pet store side versus the breeder. Pet Store here sells normals for $30 and male pastels for $75.

Why is everyone so against euthanization? I don't intend to do it with normals but if I did, so long as the animal didn't suffer at all, why is it so bad? I have seen people on this website say that they wouldn't mind ball being raised for food so long as they were cared for properly and slaughtered in a human way. I know that people here have also talked about preserving snakes in clear resin and selling them in addition to other babies. If you still get some use out of the animal once it is eithanized then by all means go for, even it if you're just adding it to compost for your garden in the spring, preserving it in formaldehyde, feeding it to another pet (snake, monitor, dog, etc.) or dissecting it to learn about the internal parts of a BP's anatomy.

To reiterate the important things to me here - proper husbandry prior to euthanization, humane euthanization and getting a use out of the animals after euthanization as opposed to throwing them in the trash.

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Originally Posted by joebad976

Right you did say that and when you produce all these pastels they will be selling for about the same price a normal does so will you then consider them the cheapest of animals as well?

As breeders we should educate our buyers to ensure the animal is not abused/neglected. Granted this may not cure abuse/neglect it is still better than euthanizing.

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Which is also why I'm considering purchasing an Axanthic Killer bee....so the minimum would be a pastel 100% het axanthic. Not to mention that I can afford to hang on to the less expensive morphs longer to find them good homes because of the money I'm getting from the more expensive morphs in the clutch. I'm putting out a bunch of cash so I can stay ahead of this problem, thats my way of dealing with it. I personally would never breed animals that could produce normals because I do not want to be stuck in that situation. In the same way that we have several breeder cresteds which would produce offspring that I know I could not sell for more cash then they consume in the 3-6months it takes to get them ready to be shipped. I would be pressed economically to get rid of them and this might lead them to ending up in the hands of folks that wouldn't take care of them.

And of course it is the breeders responsibility to educate buyers but irregardless you can not guarantee that those folks won't just nod their heads go home and stick a BP in a screen cage.

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Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

You can't make a correlation without data. But besides the points, it depends on how much they value something. I have friends that drive $200,000 cars that don't care if they crash it while they cherish a dog yet adopted from the shelter for $150 dollars. Or one of my family friends euthanized his great dame that costed him $1500 because he didn't want to deal with taking care of the dog after surgery. Also I know people that take very good care of whatever they buy (expensive or not). If the person buys a snake to see it as a thing and not a livin animal then they won't give a flying feather if it does or not.

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Well your right, I can't throw statistics at you because no one has done the empirical research. I can however put together a logical framework. Property that is expendable tends to get abused. There are exceptions to the rule but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of my proposition. In the same way that in economics, people respond to incentives, does that mean that all people respond to the same incentives? No, but that does not invalidate the logic.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Why is everyone so against euthanization? I don't intend to do it with normals but if I did, so long as the animal didn't suffer at all, why is it so bad? I have seen people on this website say that they wouldn't mind ball being raised for food so long as they were cared for properly and slaughtered in a human way. I know that people here have also talked about preserving snakes in clear resin and selling them in addition to other babies. If you still get some use out of the animal once it is eithanized then by all means go for, even it if you're just adding it to compost for your garden in the spring, preserving it in formaldehyde, feeding it to another pet (snake, monitor, dog, etc.) or dissecting it to learn about the internal parts of a BP's anatomy.

To reiterate the important things to me here - proper husbandry prior to euthanization, humane euthanization and getting a use out of the animals after euthanization as opposed to throwing them in the trash.

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I tend to agree with this, so long as it is used for "something" I don't really care if people euthanize so long as it is humane etc. I understand that people have an empathetic attachment to normal BPs because they have BPs as pets and thats completely fine and I totally respect that opinion. I dont get though how you guys can feed your animals euthanized rodents and not make the same connection?

If those of you that do produce normals as a "by-product" want to devote the time and effort to getting them homes and do not care about the economics thats awsome, thats your way of dealing with it. The way I prefer to deal with it is staying ahead of that price drop off so I know I have more time before I'm in the hole economically on that animal, which allows me to get it into the hands of someone who will treat it properly.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

I tend to agree with this, so long as it is used for "something" I don't really care if people euthanize so long as it is humane etc. I understand that people have an empathetic attachment to normal BPs because they have BPs as pets and thats completely fine and I totally respect that opinion. I dont get though how you guys can feed your animals euthanized rodents and not make the same connection?

If those of you that do produce normals as a "by-product" want to devote the time and effort to getting them homes and do not care about the economics thats awsome, thats your way of dealing with it. The way I prefer to deal with it is staying ahead of that price drop off so I know I have more time before I'm in the hole economically on that animal, which allows me to get it into the hands of someone who will treat it properly.

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you just clarified what I had suspected from your original post on this subject. you view normals as expendable because they aren't inherently valuable from an economic standpoint. if your approach to breeding is framed exclusively by your potential for monetary return, you're in the wrong part of the hobby. if you are worried about housing and feeding any 'low end' offspring that may result from your breeding efforts, especially if culling is an option, don't breed. the difference for those who breed feeder rodents is that they're breeding a food supply. it's responsible to raise a stock of animals to be used as a sustainable resource. it's irresponsible to raise a stock of animals solely to make your money back and cull the ones that don't fit your aesthetic requirements or economic/space constraints.

I have a few local pet stores set up for when I have normal hatchlings. After that I MAY try to sell them on craigslist and make sure I screen potential buyers and give them a proper caresheet ahead of the purchase and quiz them on their setup before handing them the snake.


That said, I do think I'd rather euthanize a normal than hand it out for free or for 10 bucks to a stranger. Just like monitor lizards, huge numbers of ball pythons are sold into the pet trade every year and most of them do not make it past the first year. I guarantee the death of those animals is more unpleasant than getting gassed in a rat gassing chamber.

For selfish reasons, it cuts down on space and food requirements and makes better care for the 'permanent collection' a little easier.

I've had no problems selling normals, either at shows, word of mouth or through craigslist.

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Originally Posted by wwmjkd

you just clarified what I had suspected from your original post on this subject. you view normals as expendable because they aren't inherently valuable from an economic standpoint. if your approach to breeding is framed exclusively by your potential for monetary return, you're in the wrong part of the hobby. if you are worried about housing and feeding any 'low end' offspring that may result from your breeding efforts, especially if culling is an option, don't breed. the difference for those who breed feeder rodents is that they're breeding a food supply. it's responsible to raise a stock of animals to be used as a sustainable resource. it's irresponsible to raise a stock of animals solely to make your money back and cull the ones that don't fit your aesthetic requirements or economic/space constraints.

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No, they aren't inherently valuable from an economic standpoint to me, but this does not mean that they aren't valuable for some other reason to others. If my approach to breeding was solely around monetary concern then why would I own a Savannah monitor which has sunk me at least $1k in the hole, and Uroplatus which has sunk me about $5k in the hole?

I am not worried about housing lower end animals because I know that the money I make from others in the clutch aswell as from nephrurus and everything else I own will make up for housing lower end animals until I can find a house for them.

My question about culling was mostly to folks who are doing say pastel spider x spider, where there would be a much higher percentage of normals and low income overall. I really do enjoy my animals and I am willing to breed them to the point of breaking even or even negative a small amount but if they became that much of a burden economically I simply would stop breeding them, downsize, and keep 1-2 of each species I own as pets.

Also about the feeders, using that logic you provided, if I purchased a kingsnake or king cobra would it suddenly be ok for me to euthanize the BPs in that way? I really see no difference between that situation and feeding a rat to a BP.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Which is also why I'm considering purchasing an Axanthic Killer bee....so the minimum would be a pastel 100% het axanthic. Not to mention that I can afford to hang on to the less expensive morphs longer to find them good homes because of the money I'm getting from the more expensive morphs in the clutch. I'm putting out a bunch of cash so I can stay ahead of this problem, thats my way of dealing with it. I personally would never breed animals that could produce normals because I do not want to be stuck in that situation. In the same way that we have several breeder cresteds which would produce offspring that I know I could not sell for more cash then they consume in the 3-6months it takes to get them ready to be shipped. I would be pressed economically to get rid of them and this might lead them to ending up in the hands of folks that wouldn't take care of them.

And of course it is the breeders responsibility to educate buyers but irregardless you can not guarantee that those folks won't just nod their heads go home and stick a BP in a screen cage.

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Well your right, I can't throw statistics at you because no one has done the empirical research. I can however put together a logical framework. Property that is expendable tends to get abused. There are exceptions to the rule but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of my proposition. In the same way that in economics, people respond to incentives, does that mean that all people respond to the same incentives? No, but that does not invalidate the logic.

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That's assuming that cheap things=expendable. What is expendable or not is a subjective value therefor you cannot determine what is and isn't expendable. All because it "makes sense" it doesn't mean it's "logical" or true. You are basing your "logic" purely on anecdotal experiences as am I. This logical fallacy is called hasty generalization, drawing conclusions on population that isn't large enough. Anyways, some people use price as a measurement of value and some don't. But we can safely assume that people who abuse animals regardless I the price are quite cold hearted ;)

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

No, they aren't inherently valuable from an economic standpoint to me, but this does not mean that they aren't valuable for some other reason to others. If my approach to breeding was solely around monetary concern then why would I own a Savannah monitor which has sunk me at least $1k in the hole, and Uroplatus which has sunk me about $5k in the hole?

I am not worried about housing lower end animals because I know that the money I make from others in the clutch aswell as from nephrurus and everything else I own will make up for housing lower end animals until I can find a house for them.

My question about culling was mostly to folks who are doing say pastel spider x spider, where there would be a much higher percentage of normals and low income overall. I really do enjoy my animals and I am willing to breed them to the point of breaking even or even negative a small amount but if they became that much of a burden economically I simply would stop breeding them, downsize, and keep 1-2 of each species I own as pets.

Also about the feeders, using that logic you provided, if I purchased a kingsnake or king cobra would it suddenly be ok for me to euthanize the BPs in that way? I really see no difference between that situation and feeding a rat to a BP.

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It all has to do with intention. Crude examples: euthanizing a dog. My family friend euthanized his dog because it was cheaper to get another one. He was fully able to pay the medical bills for the dog. Stamp money. The dog was only a year old vs him euthanizing a dog because she had a problem the vet could not fix and she would not live a good life Example 2: a woman murders a man because she disagreed with his opinion vs her murdering a man that tried to attack her in her home. Example 3: burying a dead dog vs throwing a dead dog into a hole in the ground. The end result of these examples are the same: the woman killed a man, the dog is still euthanized and the dead dog I still in a hole in the ground. But the context or intention behind it is what makes the difference. Culling a normal ball python to feed your other snakes to me is ok. But culling a normal ball python because you don't want to take responsibility for it financially even though you're fully aware of the fact that when you breed certain morphs together you'll get a normal to me is unacceptable.

While *I* would / could never use snakes as a feeder, I would not throw someone that does under a bus. As long as it is humane as it can be, and the animals are well cared for prior, that is the circle of life and no different that feeder rats/mice/fish/guinea pigs/rabbits/chicks etc. No animal life is of greater value than another's. Its a life, period. Though I may personally value say, my dogs life over a rats, who am I to judge those with a pet rat that they love just as deeply?

I am against euthanizing because it is a normal. I am not against euthanizing for the use of food for another animal.

Now...*clears throat* its time...for...
*breaks out into song*
*Lion King*

It's the Circle of Life!
And it moves us alllll
Through despair and hope
Through faith and love
Till we find our place
On the path unwinding
In the Circle The Circle of Life...

*ahem*....sorry :P

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Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

That's assuming that cheap things=expendable. What is expendable or not is a subjective value therefor you cannot determine what is and isn't expendable. All because it "makes sense" it doesn't mean it's "logical" or true. You are basing your "logic" purely on anecdotal experiences as am I. This logical fallacy is called hasty generalization, drawing conclusions on population that isn't large enough. Anyways, some people use price as a measurement of value and some don't. But we can safely assume that people who abuse animals regardless I the price are quite cold hearted ;)

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I agree, what is expendable is somewhat subjective. For instance if I have 25 trillion dollars, ferraris are very much expendable. Still though toyota corollas are that much more expendable then ferraris to me and more likely just from an economic standpoint to be abused (assuming no personal injury etc), it doesn't mean causally that I will abuse either but the economics are there.

Pretty much everyone can afford a $5 snake to be replaced every day if one died, very few are able to do that with $275-$24,000 snakes. There is also much less incentive to abuse those higher end animals because of the profitability of breeding them. There is also a more likely chance that people who are purchasing more expensive animals which they have to save up to afford are going to protect that investment as much as possible.

I intend on giving a "normal" a palace for a home. Normals are gorgeous, in my opinion. I wish they were as cheap, as mentioned above, around here. But, responsibility first! Habitat 100% before BP.
Oh, by the way, I'm JeRMz. The new guy!

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Originally Posted by barbie.dragon

It all has to do with intention. Crude examples: euthanizing a dog. My family friend euthanized his dog because it was cheaper to get another one. He was fully able to pay the medical bills for the dog. Stamp money. The dog was only a year old vs him euthanizing a dog because she had a problem the vet could not fix and she would not live a good life Example 2: a woman murders a man because she disagreed with his opinion vs her murdering a man that tried to attack her in her home. Example 3: burying a dead dog vs throwing a dead dog into a hole in the ground. The end result of these examples are the same: the woman killed a man, the dog is still euthanized and the dead dog I still in a hole in the ground. But the context or intention behind it is what makes the difference. Culling a normal ball python to feed your other snakes to me is ok. But culling a normal ball python because you don't want to take responsibility for it financially even though you're fully aware of the fact that when you breed certain morphs together you'll get a normal to me is unacceptable.

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I think I agree with most of that but the last example is a little foggy and I don't really have the logic worked out in my own head too well. Why would you say that culling to feed a BP to other snakes is ok but culling a BP so you wouldn't have to feed it and so you could pay for mice to feed other snakes is unacceptable? The intention is the same in this example, the point is to feed the kingsnake by getting rid of lower morphs. I'm not saying I'd ever do it, nor have I this entire thread.

Producing normals to feed other snakes is not the same thing as over producing normals/low end snakes and culling them because you don't want to feed them or you want to feed other more expensive snakes.

Simple fact is if you can't afford to feed them forever you shouldn't be making them.

If you are making them to feed something else, that's called a feeder, nowhere in the same ball park as making them to sell, finding out you cant sell them, and culling them because they cost money to care for.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

I think I agree with most of that but the last example is a little foggy and I don't really have the logic worked out in my own head too well. Why would you say that culling to feed a BP to other snakes is ok but culling a BP so you wouldn't have to feed it and so you could pay for mice to feed other snakes is unacceptable? The intention is the same in this example, the point is to feed the kingsnake by getting rid of lower morphs. I'm not saying I'd ever do it, nor have I this entire thread.

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I think that is the intention part of it. For example her example of euthanizing a dog, because it was less money or the same to buy a new dog.
You are killing an animal (not you, like YOU but you as in general) to save money. Where / what is that money spent on? Irrelevant. Bottom line is you are killing an animal to save money.
USING said animal to feed another animal, is not the same intention IMO. Now you could argue, well breeding your own, and culling them to feed is saving money, so it's similar / the same. Yes and no, now it seems the hairs begin to be split. We have to draw the line somewhere in our heads, or we end up logically making excuses for things that by themselves are against our beliefs.

Example: I am against taking another humans life. I will take another humans life in defense of my own life, or my family's. Well, if that is the case, someone who is threatening my life...is it then alright to take the life of someone who hits my car with my family in it? They threatened my life, and my family's life, after all. Or what about financially? If my job is the only thing keeping my family with food in their mouths, and someone fires me for unjust reasons, they are threatening my life, and my family's life...so do I have the right to take theirs?

Those are extreme, but you can bridge logical arguments to the point of insanity and inhumanity. You, as a person (we) have to draw the line somewhere. It's that entire "Gray area" people talk about. Nothing is black or white, murder is not always wrong. Killing an animal is not always wrong. There is gray area in every aspect of life, it's up to us as people to judge where our morals draw the line.

I think her meaning was, if you do not financially plan on caring and raising for all of the babies you produce, you shouldn't breed to begin with. This is often the advice given to people who are breeding for the first time. Because, as rare as the case may be, there is always a chance you do not sell your clutch, and you should be able to care for them. If you cannot care for them, you should not pair in the first place.

I probably screwed that up entirely, but my brain went on a road trip so...yea...rambles for all!

When we start breeding we intend to sell to a local pet store, CL, and through word of mouth. It makes no sense (IMO) to cull a perfectly healthy animal that you can't sell simply because you can't sell it. The cost of feeding all those babies, normals or otherwise and fast moving morphs or otherwise, is the cost of breeding. Do it responsibly.

I am speechless, completely dumbfounded by some of these comments. Really? I think some people should really not be allowed to own or breed animals with the mentalities that they have.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I think that is the intention part of it. For example her example of euthanizing a dog, because it was less money or the same to buy a new dog.
You are killing an animal (not you, like YOU but you as in general) to save money. Where / what is that money spent on? Irrelevant. Bottom line is you are killing an animal to save money.
USING said animal to feed another animal, is not the same intention IMO. Now you could argue, well breeding your own, and culling them to feed is saving money, so it's similar / the same. Yes and no, now it seems the hairs begin to be split. We have to draw the line somewhere in our heads, or we end up logically making excuses for things that by themselves are against our beliefs.

Example: I am against taking another humans life. I will take another humans life in defense of my own life, or my family's. Well, if that is the case, someone who is threatening my life...is it then alright to take the life of someone who hits my car with my family in it? They threatened my life, and my family's life, after all. Or what about financially? If my job is the only thing keeping my family with food in their mouths, and someone fires me for unjust reasons, they are threatening my life, and my family's life...so do I have the right to take theirs?

Those are extreme, but you can bridge logical arguments to the point of insanity and inhumanity. You, as a person (we) have to draw the line somewhere. It's that entire "Gray area" people talk about. Nothing is black or white, murder is not always wrong. Killing an animal is not always wrong. There is gray area in every aspect of life, it's up to us as people to judge where our morals draw the line.

I think her meaning was, if you do not financially plan on caring and raising for all of the babies you produce, you shouldn't breed to begin with. This is often the advice given to people who are breeding for the first time. Because, as rare as the case may be, there is always a chance you do not sell your clutch, and you should be able to care for them. If you cannot care for them, you should not pair in the first place.

I probably screwed that up entirely, but my brain went on a road trip so...yea...rambles for all!

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I think going into human ethics (morality) is probably stepping in the wrong direction and I disagree that all of those examples are subjective. I will refrain from becoming more tangential though as I'm sure you all will appreciate :P.

I also do agree with "if you do not financially plan on caring and raising for all of the babies you produce, you shouldn't breed to begin with." and think that as a principle thats pretty sound. With the exception that I still don't get how raising BPs for feeders is "better" then say raising them for compost.

Again, I fully understand peoples empathetic connection to an animal that they keep as a pet but that doesn't make it "wrong" to euthanize, its just a personal preference. Which is still fine and dandy because you do not need to purchase from people that you know practice any kind of euthanasia that you disagree with. I also, when at all possible refrain from purchasing from wholesalers and importers because I have noticed through personal experience a correlation between cheap animals and abuse.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I am speechless, completely dumbfounded by some of these comments. Really? I think some people should really not be allowed to own or breed animals with the mentalities that they have.

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Thats kind of passive aggressive, I would appreciate if you would elaborate, sorry if I have offended you at all.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I am speechless, completely dumbfounded by some of these comments. Really? I think some people should really not be allowed to own or breed animals with the mentalities that they have.

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I don't see any comments here that say anyone plans to euthanize snakes because they have a low dollar value. It's not our fault you lack the ability to use logic to understand something that is otherwise taboo.

I don't see a huge difference between selling a hatchling to Timmy the Toddler's mom from Craigslist who will kill the snake from poor care within 6 months and euthanizing it. The only difference I'm finding is that one is humane and the other is slow, painful, and tragic with a chance it turns out well for the snake. The other difference is the monetary gain from the sale. You're simply taking the blood off your hands by saying 'welllllllll Timmy's mom might find BP.net and take this seriously and provide a good home.' It's a risk everyone takes (do you find that immoral?) when they sell a snake, we're just more likely to take that risk for money than not. That's not heartless to me, it's realistic and economical.

Again, I don't have plans to do this but I can logic beyond my own personal beliefs.

lol Really? Anyone who would euthanize an animal that they produced just because they don't want to take the time to find it a home or take care of it, SHOULD NOT be breeding. That has got to be the most ignorant thing to do. Animal lives should all be considered equal, I agree with that. But to say you could use it as compost... what? You want a blonde child and have a brunet.... compost? Could anyone here find it acceptable for someone who breeds... dogs, to say 'I don't like this color dog, I'm going to "humanely euthanize" this litter because now it isn't worth my time'. If you are going to take the time to breed ANYTHING, educate yourself and have some sort of values. Don't sit here and say it is a hobby, not about money, blah blah blah... and then come out with some lame excuses about why you should cull normals. When you take it into your OWN hands to produce new life, I feel it should be assumed that the FIRST requirement is to provide basic, simple and deserved care and quality of life. You want to produce life to benefit you in any way shape or form, care for it an respect it. You want to feed a king snake, that's great. That is a life that deserves to be cared for. Compost, isn't that the same thing as a trash can? Nothing you're going to grow could ever benefit any extra from dead ball pythons that you didn't want to be bothered with. (*Not saying dead animals are not good for compost, only that it is stretching logic of a life cycle and morals to cull, just because...*) Culling is not out of the norm.. deformities, kinks, injury, neglect or otherwise suffering the obvious and (I hate to use this word) humane thing to do is cull in some situations.
And the other thing, that never ceases to amaze me, is how you could breed a Bee to a Spider and get "a high percentage of normals". I either missed something cosmic there, or I am still learning new things every day.
*rant is completely over*

This has always been a worry with me. From even before I wanted to start breeding, I always asked how do these breeders sell an animal to some of these people. At shows you'll see people walking around with a BP around their neck :/ or hear how these people think they should care for them.

I already plan on doing a very detailed care sheet and quizing the buyer.

Maybe there should be a program of replacing all of all the wild caught animals with the normals. I can't imagine how much death shows up in a box of wild caught.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

lol Really? Anyone who would euthanize an animal that they produced just because they don't want to take the time to find it a home or take care of it, SHOULD NOT be breeding. That has got to be the most ignorant thing to do. Animal lives should all be considered equal, I agree with that. But to say you could use it as compost... what? You want a blonde child and have a brunet.... compost? Could anyone here find it acceptable for someone who breeds... dogs, to say 'I don't like this color dog, I'm going to "humanely euthanize" this litter because now it isn't worth my time'. If you are going to take the time to breed ANYTHING, educate yourself and have some sort of values. Don't sit here and say it is a hobby, not about money, blah blah blah... and then come out with some lame excuses about why you should cull normals. When you take it into your OWN hands to produce new life, I feel it should be assumed that the FIRST requirement is to provide basic, simple and deserved care and quality of life. You want to produce life to benefit you in any way shape or form, care for it an respect it. You want to feed a king snake, that's great. That is a life that deserves to be cared for. Compost, isn't that the same thing as a trash can? Nothing you're going to grow could ever benefit any extra from dead ball pythons that you didn't want to be bothered with. (*Not saying dead animals are not good for compost, only that it is stretching logic of a life cycle and morals to cull, just because...*) Culling is not out of the norm.. deformities, kinks, injury, neglect or otherwise suffering the obvious and (I hate to use this word) humane thing to do is cull in some situations.
And the other thing, that never ceases to amaze me, is how you could breed a Bee to a Spider and get "a high percentage of normals". I either missed something cosmic there, or I am still learning new things every day.
*rant is completely over*

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Again, a human life is not the same as a BPs life, so it would probably be best to stay away from human morality when talking about animals. I wouldn't say that the dog example is "immoral" because I can't prove that it is but I would never purchase dogs from that breeder and I would do everything in my power to make sure that people knew exactly what said breeder was doing.

I agree --> "When you take it into your OWN hands to produce new life, I feel it should be assumed that the FIRST requirement is to provide basic, simple and deserved care and quality of life. You want to produce life to benefit you in any way shape or form, care for it an respect it."

"Culling is not out of the norm.. deformities, kinks, injury, neglect or otherwise suffering the obvious and (I hate to use this word) humane thing to do is cull in some situations." So wouldn't the logical conclusion be that culling to prevent BPs from entering bad homes where they would be neglected is ok? The problem is mostly around knowing whether or not if they will be mistreated. Which is something that can be hard to figure out. Which is why I am throwing so much cash into this so I know that I won't have this issue.

Oh and sorry for the confusion I meant to say a high(er) percentage of normals, than a pairing of more genes.

Pretty sure no one on this site would ever euthanize a BP just because it's a normal. To do so would make them a very selfish person with horrible morals.

Just to clarify the posts I typed up I'm not saying culling is out of the question. But at the same time if someone decides to breed ANY ANIMAL, they should expect and prepare for the worst. I got the feeling they were asking "Can I just cull all the normals I end up with when I breed." That to me was disturbing because people should not be going into breeding with that mindset. All options of finding the normal bp a home should be exhausted first before saying "k let's cull all of them because they might end up living a crappy life." I believe our mindset should be more along the liens of "when I sell my normal ball python to someone, let's put a little caresheet in there and do some very crude screening to make sure they at least have a thermostat, uth and knows what a snake eats."

What if you have a clutch and out pops all normals. And you have a hatchling rack and all the room you need. You also have all the money you need to care for them(but that is it). But you just can't get rid of the babies. Then you are stuck with a few normals that are about to out grow their tubs. Due to space constraints and money constraints, you can't buy/build another rack. Would you then consider it morally okay to cull the remaining babies? I realize that it is a far stretch that you couldn't at least get some people to house the snakes while you find a buyer/people to give them to, but you get the point. Basicly, if you can not house them any longer, and can't get rid of them, would you cull them? To me, that is the only option. Just some food for thought.

Should we change the title of this thread? The original question was where do you sell your normals, not whether euthanizing was an option. I for one, would not euthanize. I'm lucky enough to have a local pet store that will take them from me for store credit.

I read somewhere, can't remember if it was on a shirt or bumper sticker or what, but it said " If you can't feed them, don't breed them"

I eat all mine.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I eat all mine.

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I'm half tempted to believe this.

I could never euthanize a BP to use as food. But, I also can't distinguish between that and euthanizing rodents to feed my BP. I'm just more partial to BP's :P. Also, whats wrong with selling it for cheap on craigslist/elsewhere? If they want to buy a BP, they will buy one whether or not you're selling your normal--except you have the opportunity to ensure they know how to care for it.