Where do you sell most of your normal hatchlings?

[RoseyReps]

Pastels already are as cheap as normals especially if you compare breeder priced pastels to pet store priced normals. You'll get the pastels as cheap or cheaper. (depending on the pet store etc, but I've seen hatchling normals for $69-89 and pastels from breeders as low as $50-75)

[joebad976]

Pastels already are as cheap as normals especially if you compare breeder priced pastels to pet store priced normals. You'll get the pastels as cheap or cheaper. (depending on the pet store etc, but I've seen hatchling normals for $69-89 and pastels from breeders as low as $50-75)

True but there is a bit of a mark-up on the pet store side versus the breeder. Pet Store here sells normals for $30 and male pastels for $75.

[gsarchie]

Why is everyone so against euthanization? I don't intend to do it with normals but if I did, so long as the animal didn't suffer at all, why is it so bad? I have seen people on this website say that they wouldn't mind ball being raised for food so long as they were cared for properly and slaughtered in a human way. I know that people here have also talked about preserving snakes in clear resin and selling them in addition to other babies. If you still get some use out of the animal once it is eithanized then by all means go for, even it if you're just adding it to compost for your garden in the spring, preserving it in formaldehyde, feeding it to another pet (snake, monitor, dog, etc.) or dissecting it to learn about the internal parts of a BP's anatomy.

To reiterate the important things to me here - proper husbandry prior to euthanization, humane euthanization and getting a use out of the animals after euthanization as opposed to throwing them in the trash.

[OctagonGecko729]

Right you did say that and when you produce all these pastels they will be selling for about the same price a normal does so will you then consider them the cheapest of animals as well?

As breeders we should educate our buyers to ensure the animal is not abused/neglected. Granted this may not cure abuse/neglect it is still better than euthanizing.

Which is also why I'm considering purchasing an Axanthic Killer bee....so the minimum would be a pastel 100% het axanthic. Not to mention that I can afford to hang on to the less expensive morphs longer to find them good homes because of the money I'm getting from the more expensive morphs in the clutch. I'm putting out a bunch of cash so I can stay ahead of this problem, thats my way of dealing with it. I personally would never breed animals that could produce normals because I do not want to be stuck in that situation. In the same way that we have several breeder cresteds which would produce offspring that I know I could not sell for more cash then they consume in the 3-6months it takes to get them ready to be shipped. I would be pressed economically to get rid of them and this might lead them to ending up in the hands of folks that wouldn't take care of them.

And of course it is the breeders responsibility to educate buyers but irregardless you can not guarantee that those folks won't just nod their heads go home and stick a BP in a screen cage.

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You can't make a correlation without data. But besides the points, it depends on how much they value something. I have friends that drive $200,000 cars that don't care if they crash it while they cherish a dog yet adopted from the shelter for $150 dollars. Or one of my family friends euthanized his great dame that costed him $1500 because he didn't want to deal with taking care of the dog after surgery. Also I know people that take very good care of whatever they buy (expensive or not). If the person buys a snake to see it as a thing and not a livin animal then they won't give a flying feather if it does or not.

Well your right, I can't throw statistics at you because no one has done the empirical research. I can however put together a logical framework. Property that is expendable tends to get abused. There are exceptions to the rule but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of my proposition. In the same way that in economics, people respond to incentives, does that mean that all people respond to the same incentives? No, but that does not invalidate the logic.

[OctagonGecko729]

Why is everyone so against euthanization? I don't intend to do it with normals but if I did, so long as the animal didn't suffer at all, why is it so bad? I have seen people on this website say that they wouldn't mind ball being raised for food so long as they were cared for properly and slaughtered in a human way. I know that people here have also talked about preserving snakes in clear resin and selling them in addition to other babies. If you still get some use out of the animal once it is eithanized then by all means go for, even it if you're just adding it to compost for your garden in the spring, preserving it in formaldehyde, feeding it to another pet (snake, monitor, dog, etc.) or dissecting it to learn about the internal parts of a BP's anatomy.

To reiterate the important things to me here - proper husbandry prior to euthanization, humane euthanization and getting a use out of the animals after euthanization as opposed to throwing them in the trash.

I tend to agree with this, so long as it is used for "something" I don't really care if people euthanize so long as it is humane etc. I understand that people have an empathetic attachment to normal BPs because they have BPs as pets and thats completely fine and I totally respect that opinion. I dont get though how you guys can feed your animals euthanized rodents and not make the same connection?

If those of you that do produce normals as a "by-product" want to devote the time and effort to getting them homes and do not care about the economics thats awsome, thats your way of dealing with it. The way I prefer to deal with it is staying ahead of that price drop off so I know I have more time before I'm in the hole economically on that animal, which allows me to get it into the hands of someone who will treat it properly.

[wwmjkd]

I tend to agree with this, so long as it is used for "something" I don't really care if people euthanize so long as it is humane etc. I understand that people have an empathetic attachment to normal BPs because they have BPs as pets and thats completely fine and I totally respect that opinion. I dont get though how you guys can feed your animals euthanized rodents and not make the same connection?

If those of you that do produce normals as a "by-product" want to devote the time and effort to getting them homes and do not care about the economics thats awsome, thats your way of dealing with it. The way I prefer to deal with it is staying ahead of that price drop off so I know I have more time before I'm in the hole economically on that animal, which allows me to get it into the hands of someone who will treat it properly.

you just clarified what I had suspected from your original post on this subject. you view normals as expendable because they aren't inherently valuable from an economic standpoint. if your approach to breeding is framed exclusively by your potential for monetary return, you're in the wrong part of the hobby. if you are worried about housing and feeding any 'low end' offspring that may result from your breeding efforts, especially if culling is an option, don't breed. the difference for those who breed feeder rodents is that they're breeding a food supply. it's responsible to raise a stock of animals to be used as a sustainable resource. it's irresponsible to raise a stock of animals solely to make your money back and cull the ones that don't fit your aesthetic requirements or economic/space constraints.

[MrLang]

I have a few local pet stores set up for when I have normal hatchlings. After that I MAY try to sell them on craigslist and make sure I screen potential buyers and give them a proper caresheet ahead of the purchase and quiz them on their setup before handing them the snake.


That said, I do think I'd rather euthanize a normal than hand it out for free or for 10 bucks to a stranger. Just like monitor lizards, huge numbers of ball pythons are sold into the pet trade every year and most of them do not make it past the first year. I guarantee the death of those animals is more unpleasant than getting gassed in a rat gassing chamber.

For selfish reasons, it cuts down on space and food requirements and makes better care for the 'permanent collection' a little easier.

[Don]

I've had no problems selling normals, either at shows, word of mouth or through craigslist.

[OctagonGecko729]

you just clarified what I had suspected from your original post on this subject. you view normals as expendable because they aren't inherently valuable from an economic standpoint. if your approach to breeding is framed exclusively by your potential for monetary return, you're in the wrong part of the hobby. if you are worried about housing and feeding any 'low end' offspring that may result from your breeding efforts, especially if culling is an option, don't breed. the difference for those who breed feeder rodents is that they're breeding a food supply. it's responsible to raise a stock of animals to be used as a sustainable resource. it's irresponsible to raise a stock of animals solely to make your money back and cull the ones that don't fit your aesthetic requirements or economic/space constraints.

No, they aren't inherently valuable from an economic standpoint to me, but this does not mean that they aren't valuable for some other reason to others. If my approach to breeding was solely around monetary concern then why would I own a Savannah monitor which has sunk me at least $1k in the hole, and Uroplatus which has sunk me about $5k in the hole?

I am not worried about housing lower end animals because I know that the money I make from others in the clutch aswell as from nephrurus and everything else I own will make up for housing lower end animals until I can find a house for them.

My question about culling was mostly to folks who are doing say pastel spider x spider, where there would be a much higher percentage of normals and low income overall. I really do enjoy my animals and I am willing to breed them to the point of breaking even or even negative a small amount but if they became that much of a burden economically I simply would stop breeding them, downsize, and keep 1-2 of each species I own as pets.

Also about the feeders, using that logic you provided, if I purchased a kingsnake or king cobra would it suddenly be ok for me to euthanize the BPs in that way? I really see no difference between that situation and feeding a rat to a BP.

[barbie.dragon]

Which is also why I'm considering purchasing an Axanthic Killer bee....so the minimum would be a pastel 100% het axanthic. Not to mention that I can afford to hang on to the less expensive morphs longer to find them good homes because of the money I'm getting from the more expensive morphs in the clutch. I'm putting out a bunch of cash so I can stay ahead of this problem, thats my way of dealing with it. I personally would never breed animals that could produce normals because I do not want to be stuck in that situation. In the same way that we have several breeder cresteds which would produce offspring that I know I could not sell for more cash then they consume in the 3-6months it takes to get them ready to be shipped. I would be pressed economically to get rid of them and this might lead them to ending up in the hands of folks that wouldn't take care of them.

And of course it is the breeders responsibility to educate buyers but irregardless you can not guarantee that those folks won't just nod their heads go home and stick a BP in a screen cage.

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Well your right, I can't throw statistics at you because no one has done the empirical research. I can however put together a logical framework. Property that is expendable tends to get abused. There are exceptions to the rule but that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of my proposition. In the same way that in economics, people respond to incentives, does that mean that all people respond to the same incentives? No, but that does not invalidate the logic.

That's assuming that cheap things=expendable. What is expendable or not is a subjective value therefor you cannot determine what is and isn't expendable. All because it "makes sense" it doesn't mean it's "logical" or true. You are basing your "logic" purely on anecdotal experiences as am I. This logical fallacy is called hasty generalization, drawing conclusions on population that isn't large enough. Anyways, some people use price as a measurement of value and some don't. But we can safely assume that people who abuse animals regardless I the price are quite cold hearted