IBD possibly caused by newly discovered rodent virus!

Interesting article about how IBD may be linked to/caused by a previously unknown strain of a rodent virus.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/environme...irus-1-2465888

Maybe they will investigate the rodents fed to those zoo snakes further and figure it out once and for all. I would like to know where those rodents came from if it is found to be true.

Here is the article copy and pasted to make it easier..

..........................................

‘Mad snake disease’ may 
be caused by rodent virus
Published: 14 August 2012

A MYSTERIOUS “mad snake disease” that causes pythons to tie themselves up in knots may be caused by a rodent virus, scientists believe.


The fatal condition, called inclusion body disease (IBD), strikes captive pythons and boa constrictors. Snakes with the disease start to display strange behavioural traits, such as “stargazing” – staring upwards for long periods of time.

Other symptoms include appearing drunk and getting into a tangle. “They tie themselves in a knot and they can’t get out of it,” said US expert Professor Michael Buchmeier, from the University of California at Irvine.

IBD gets its name from inclusions, or pockets of foreign material, found in the cells of affected animals. Although the disease is known to be highly infectious, its cause has been a mystery. Such viruses usually infect mice and rats, but can cause haemorrhagic fever in humans.

A team led by Prof Buchmeier investigated an outbreak of IBD among snakes at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco.

Tests showed it belonged to a family of arenaviruses – a type of virus that normally infects rodents – never seen before.

“This is one of the most exciting things that has happened to us in virology in a very long time,” said Prof Buchmeier. “The fact that we have apparently identified a whole new lineage of arenaviruses is very exciting.”

The research is published in mBio, the online journal of 
the American Society for Microbiology.

Hmmm I hope they figure out what causes it and then what causes the rodent disease.

This looks like a case of 'journalist doesn't understand what the scientist is saying'.

They're not saying it's a rodent virus, and certainly not saying it's transmitted by rodents.

They're saying that the virus is of the same TYPE as viruses that normally infect rodents. Could it be found in rodents? That's not yet known.

The virus is new to science, they don't know how it's transmitted yet.

This morning, on NPR's Morning Edition, there was a fairly interesting story about IBD and it's relation to the Ebola virus. Here is a link to the article, news cast and video:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012...bola-in-humans

Very Interesting, thanks for posting Don.

Quote:

---

"One of its genes is actually most closely related to the same gene in Ebola virus," he says. "So this virus is actually a mash-up, or a genetic mix of arenaviruses and Ebola virus."

---

Scary stuff...

Here is a better article that describes it in more detail.. This one makes more sense.


http://m.yahoo.com/w/legobpengine/ne...US&.lang=en-US

The content is interesting, but the comments seem to be examples of the worst our species has to offer. Seriously? Someone wants to set this loose in the everglades?

ScienceDaily (Aug. 14, 2012) — A mysterious condition called Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) strikes captive boa constrictors and pythons, causing bizarre behavioral changes and eventually death. Scientists investigating an outbreak of IBD among snakes at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco report they may well have found a virus that is responsible for this common but deadly disease, a discovery that could eventually lead to prevention and treatment options. The study appears in the August 14 issue of mBio®, the online open-access journal of the American Society for Microbiology. The authors report that the virus represents a whole new class of arenaviruses scientists have never seen before.

Among captive boas, IBD is the most commonly diagnosed disease that is thought to be caused by a virus. Snakes that have contracted IBD may initially regurgitate food, but they eventually show dramatic neurological problems, says Michael Buchmeier, a professor of infectious diseases at the University of California, Irvine. Neurological signs include "stargazing," in which the snake stares upwards for long periods of time.

"Some of the symptoms are pretty bizarre -- this stargazing behavior, looking like they're drunk, they tie themselves in a knot and they can't get out of it," says Buchmeier. The condition, which is named for the inclusions, or pockets of foreign material, found inside the cells of affected animals, is ultimately fatal. IBD is devastating for large aquariums, as it can infect a large number of snakes before it is identified and quarantine measures can be put in place. Since there is currently no treatment for the disease, infected snakes must be euthanized to prevent them from infecting other animals.

When the disease recently struck a number of boas and pythons at the Steinhart Aquarium at the California Academy of Sciences, the aquarium requested help from scientists at the University of California San Francisco who specialize in discovering novel viruses.

The researchers extracted DNA from tissue samples taken from boas and pythons diagnosed with IBD, and used rapid, high-throughput techniques to learn the sequence of those strands of DNA. In amongst all the snake DNA sequences there were sequences of DNA that clearly belonged to viruses -- viruses that are members of the arenavirus family. The authors were later able to grow and isolate one of those viruses using snake tissues cultured in the laboratory.

While it is an important development from a practical standpoint, since identifying the causative agent for a disease is the first step in developing treatments, vaccines, diagnostics, and prevention policies it is also an incredible discovery for virology: the virus belongs to a group of viruses no one knew existed.

"This is one of the most exciting things that has happened to us in virology in a very long time. The fact that we have apparently identified a whole new lineage of arenaviruses that may predate the New and Old world is very exciting," says Buchmeier.

According to Buchmeier, this new isolate doesn't fall neatly into either of the two known categories of arenaviruses, Old World arenaviruses and New World arenaviruses. The fact that the virus was found in snakes adds another surprise twist, since up until now arenaviruses had only ever been found in mammals.

Metagenomic techniques that examine large samples of DNA for small bits of information, like the approach used in the study, are extremely powerful for identifying new viruses, Buchmeier says.

"Twenty years ago we would have called this a fishing expedition. It is fishing, but the techniques are so good and so sensitive that they allow us to determine which new types are there," says Buchmeier.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...nd+Reptiles%29

I was just at the California Academy of Science 2 weeks ago! I hope I didn't bring home any viruses =X

This cannot be true!

I have it on the bestest of authorities that IBD DOES NOT EXIST!

All of the people who have been devastated by it or lost beloved pets by it have been fooled by some vast conspiracy.

Don't believe me? Well maybe you will believe the utmost authority on all things boa:

http://www.pethobbyist.com/articles/...tJeffRonne.htm

Scroll down to:

roxydementia: what do you think the future holds for IBD research? i have had 2 suspec boas (did not know where to send them back then to be sure) but no one else in the collection was infected its been years. i now run an informal rescue and keep new ones out at least 6 months, but that limits me on space big time, any experiance or advice for me? (any interest in donating cages to a rescue LOL)
rzaology: ?

boaphile: It is a really long story... but I do not believe IBD exists. I need to write this up along with all my many many years of anecdotal evedence garnered from tons of people who had been told differently. I can't expalin it all now that is for sure. GA


and:

http://www.kingsnake.com/chat/jeff_ronne.html

RonB- IBD, your thoughts?
TheBoaphile - I don't believe in it. Long story.
TheBoaphile - Too long to explain here. I need to write something up on it...
TheBoaphile - The IBD wackos are moving away from their once long held, bordering on religeous, belief about it now...

See, all you IBD "whackos" have been misled. THERE IS NO IBD!

So sorry ER12, IBD exists in the same magical land as the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and OJ Simpson's innocence! You have been suckered in by the conspiracy. One of these days the Boaphile will come around with his comprehensive write up including all of his evidence and put this sad farce to bed once and for all.

Elliott Jacobson and his program at UF will be unmasked for the money laundering operation that funds the sheep sex trade in Kazakhstan. And Buchmeir will be exposed as the Kris Kardashian of the Microbiology and Epidemiology community - selling his soul for fame. Wait and see! Wait and see!

You shush up Skip, the glove didnt fit! :rofl:

I KNEW you would bring up the Ronne interview if you saw this thread lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike41793

You shush up Skip, the glove didnt fit! :rofl:

I KNEW you would bring up the Ronne interview if you saw this thread lol.

---

InterviewS.


There was more than one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

InterviewS.


There was more than one.

---

ill read the link sometime tomorrow, but for a short hand version, what causes the IBD like symptoms then? I have personally witnessed it before I owned my first snake, at an ex girlfriend's.

She kept 3 ball pythons together in a cage (I knew next to nothing about reptiles at the time, she was the "expert" back then) well she bought a boa and kept it in a different cage, but she had them all out together all the time and they no doubt got exposure to each other (she was one of those "they're all friends"....) . id say about 2 weeks after the boa came home, one of the ball pythons (smallest one) started stargazing, stopped eating, neuro problem got worse and eventually died, not even a few days after the next one started the same process. even before that one died, the largest one started the process. She never had them tested or anything, but from what I was reading, it followed right along with IBD. About all I can say is, it affected the smallest one first and largest one last, but they all had it happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

ill read the link sometime tomorrow, but for a short hand version, what causes the IBD like symptoms then? I have personally witnessed it before I owned my first snake, at an ex girlfriend's.

She kept 3 ball pythons together in a cage (I knew next to nothing about reptiles at the time, she was the "expert" back then) well she bought a boa and kept it in a different cage, but she had them all out together all the time and they no doubt got exposure to each other (she was one of those "they're all friends"....) . id say about 2 weeks after the boa came home, one of the ball pythons (smallest one) started stargazing, stopped eating, neuro problem got worse and eventually died, not even a few days after the next one started the same process. even before that one died, the largest one started the process. She never had them tested or anything, but from what I was reading, it followed right along with IBD. About all I can say is, it affected the smallest one first and largest one last, but they all had it happen.

---

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ight=inclusion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

InterviewS.


There was more than one.

---

I've read the interviews quoted and a fair amount of ancillary articles by others denying the existence/impact of IBD as well, but I am curious to know whether he ever followed up to elaborate on that 'long story.' that's a pretty weighty categorical statement to put out there and then walk away.

also the 'Kris Kardashian of the Microbiology and Epidemiology community' line is gold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wwmjkd

I've read the interviews quoted and a fair amount of ancillary articles by others denying the existence/impact of IBD as well, but I am curious to know whether he ever followed up to elaborate on that 'long story.' that's a pretty weighty categorical statement to put out there and then walk away.

also the 'Kris Kardashian of the Microbiology and Epidemiology community' line is gold.

---

Not that he ever named anyone directly, Parker, but Dr. Jacobsen has stated in interviews that the boa breeding community has been less than supportive in terms of funding or promoting awareness of the illness and the ongoing research.


You would think that they would have been more supportive.................makes you think........

So, reading the 2011 thread, I guess my question is: will this new research provide a more accurate test?

(And... we're sure, then, that rodents are definitely NEVER the vectors of transmission? I'm confused on this point.)

http://news.yahoo.com/deadly-virus-r...155028124.html

Color me skeptical.

Is this going to be a new angle to outlaw the keeping of reptiles?

:( I hate the comments. they make me so depressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

:( I hate the comments. they make me so depressed.

---

One of my friends sent me that article...I guess so I could 'save myself' from a horrible, snakey death.

[~again~...I'm always getting "concerned warnings" about my scaly "killer kids"]

*shrug*

The snakes are staying and I'm not worrying.

It's just another load of hysterical BS, IMO.

IBD has been around forever.

Anybody here ever die from it?

{{{crickets}}}

Didn't think so.

Yeah, I am not worried about IBD. It is great that they are doing more research about it though.

The comments though...so much ignorance.

Oh god, and read the comments people put below. Some people just should not be allowed to speak......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

Yeah, I am not worried about IBD. It is great that they are doing more research about it though.

The comments though...so much ignorance.

---

I've had Dobermanns for 37 years.

I'm pretty much immune to "ignorance" and can rattle off the "correct information" in my sleep, by now.

Hypothetical time:

Supposed TSHTF and we're all fighting for our very survival, someday.

Imagine that the big, brawny guy in your metaphorical/literal foxhole lets the enemy know exactly where you are because he jumped up and screamed like a little girl because some lousy little rat snake slithered over his foot.

Now that is depressing.

So many wusses, so little time.

[FWIW, I'm a 5' 3", 100 pound little runt and I'm not scared of snakes...WTH is wrong with people??]

With any luck, they'll beat this to death and inadvertantly come up with a cure or treatment for IBD.

[or they'll just run with it, willy-nilly, creating havoc and panic amongst the herd]

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

Oh god, and read the comments people put below. Some people just should not be allowed to speak......

---

A nice dry cleaning bag properly applied would fix that.

:rofl:

I just saw a comment that said "Try it on Obama!!" All the while I'm sitting here laughing at the comment and finding out someone who's been in trouble is getting sentenced, finally!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salamander

I've had Dobermanns for 37 years.

I'm pretty much immune to "ignorance"

:rofl:

---

we had dobe's when I was young, lost a little to parvovirus picked up at the vets... This little was the last of the warlock linage.

About the only thing that scares me is nuclear war...


Sent from my iPeed using Tapatalk HD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ExotixTowing

we had dobe's when I was young, lost a little to parvovirus picked up at the vets... This little was the last of the warlock linage.

About the only thing that scares me is nuclear war...


Sent from my iPeed using Tapatalk HD

---

The "Warlock" lineage is still going strong, if you're referring to Borong The Warlock.
The Kayhill kennels, as just one example are heavily Warlock linebred and most good lines still trace back to to his descendants.

If you're referring to the oversized, so-called "Warlock Dobermans", there never was such a thing, anyway.

They were just bred-huge, over-standard Dobermanns, much as the "King Dobermans" and other mythological creatures.

:)

I'm very sorry for your loss.

Parvo is a wicked, wicked thing that Dobes are still especially sensitive to, as are all other "Black & Tan" dog breeds and I remember when the vaccine first came out for that and Leptospirosis although since that time, the Lepto vac is contraindicated in Dobermanns and I do not allow mine to be vaxed for it.

[wrong serovar of Lepto and way too many serious side-effects]

My HS best friend lost her young Weim to parvo, just a couple points shy of getting his his title.

We just didn't know about it in the mid-70's.

He was a beautiful specimen and a great loss to the breed.

Happily, we not only have a good Parvo vac now, we are able to treat the active virus quite successfully.

The only thing about nuclear war that scares me is surviving one.

I'd much rather be incinerated instantly than die of slow radiation poisoning.

[Where I live, I'll be ashes before I even see the pretty flash]....;D

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by therunaway

I just saw a comment that said "Try it on Obama!!" All the while I'm sitting here laughing at the comment and finding out someone who's been in trouble is getting sentenced, finally!

---

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

So basically all your saying is IBD is being used as an umbrella for what could possibly be a bunch of diseases/issues and we know next to nothing about it (which I think everyone agrees on) I still don't understand how this means it doesn't exist. Also there is undoubtedly something going on causing these animals to have similar issues and eventually die. Call it IBD, T-Virus, or boogyman flu, I just want to have some sort of treatment for the issue, If I unforchantly come across it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Interesting article about how IBD may be linked to/caused by a previously unknown strain of a rodent virus.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/environme...irus-1-2465888

Maybe they will investigate the rodents fed to those zoo snakes further and figure it out once and for all. I would like to know where those rodents came from if it is found to be true.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don

This morning, on NPR's Morning Edition, there was a fairly interesting story about IBD and it's relation to the Ebola virus. Here is a link to the article, news cast and video:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012...bola-in-humans

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ER12

ScienceDaily (Aug. 14, 2012) — A mysterious condition called Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) strikes captive boa constrictors and pythons, causing bizarre behavioral changes and eventually death. Scientists investigating an outbreak of IBD among snakes at the Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco report they may well have found a virus that is responsible for this common but deadly disease, a discovery that could eventually lead to prevention and treatment options. The study appears in the August 14 issue of mBio®, the online open-access journal of the American Society for Microbiology. The authors report that the virus represents a whole new class of arenaviruses scientists have never seen before.

Among captive boas, IBD is the most commonly diagnosed disease that is thought to be caused by a virus. Snakes that have contracted IBD may initially regurgitate food, but they eventually show dramatic neurological problems, says Michael Buchmeier, a professor of infectious diseases at the University of California, Irvine. Neurological signs include "stargazing," in which the snake stares upwards for long periods of time.

"Some of the symptoms are pretty bizarre -- this stargazing behavior, looking like they're drunk, they tie themselves in a knot and they can't get out of it," says Buchmeier. The condition, which is named for the inclusions, or pockets of foreign material, found inside the cells of affected animals, is ultimately fatal. IBD is devastating for large aquariums, as it can infect a large number of snakes before it is identified and quarantine measures can be put in place. Since there is currently no treatment for the disease, infected snakes must be euthanized to prevent them from infecting other animals.

When the disease recently struck a number of boas and pythons at the Steinhart Aquarium at the California Academy of Sciences, the aquarium requested help from scientists at the University of California San Francisco who specialize in discovering novel viruses.

The researchers extracted DNA from tissue samples taken from boas and pythons diagnosed with IBD, and used rapid, high-throughput techniques to learn the sequence of those strands of DNA. In amongst all the snake DNA sequences there were sequences of DNA that clearly belonged to viruses -- viruses that are members of the arenavirus family. The authors were later able to grow and isolate one of those viruses using snake tissues cultured in the laboratory.

While it is an important development from a practical standpoint, since identifying the causative agent for a disease is the first step in developing treatments, vaccines, diagnostics, and prevention policies it is also an incredible discovery for virology: the virus belongs to a group of viruses no one knew existed.

"This is one of the most exciting things that has happened to us in virology in a very long time. The fact that we have apparently identified a whole new lineage of arenaviruses that may predate the New and Old world is very exciting," says Buchmeier.

According to Buchmeier, this new isolate doesn't fall neatly into either of the two known categories of arenaviruses, Old World arenaviruses and New World arenaviruses. The fact that the virus was found in snakes adds another surprise twist, since up until now arenaviruses had only ever been found in mammals.

Metagenomic techniques that examine large samples of DNA for small bits of information, like the approach used in the study, are extremely powerful for identifying new viruses, Buchmeier says.

"Twenty years ago we would have called this a fishing expedition. It is fishing, but the techniques are so good and so sensitive that they allow us to determine which new types are there," says Buchmeier.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...nd+Reptiles%29

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Salamander

http://news.yahoo.com/deadly-virus-r...155028124.html

Color me skeptical.

Is this going to be a new angle to outlaw the keeping of reptiles?

---

Merged.

Here's a link to the actual study if anyone is interested in reading it:

http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/4/e00180-12#xref-fn-1-1

Although it is still unclear how IBD is transmitted, the authors do bring up mites and infected rodents used for feeding as possible transmission vectors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Dragons

Here's a link to the actual study if anyone is interested in reading it:

http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/4/e00180-12#xref-fn-1-1

Although it is still unclear how IBD is transmitted, the authors do bring up mites and infected rodents used for feeding as possible transmission vectors.

---

After having a horrible experience with "a big name online feeder company" I found a local herp guy who breeds his own mice and rats and buy from him exclusively.
His feeders are beautiful, healthy animals, some of which, especially the fancy colored rats, I'd be happy to have had as live pets as they've excelled anything I've ever seen in the pet stores.

Somewhere around here is a thread I started with photos of the mice who had bald spots, "holes", lumps, weird red 'rashes' and gad-knows-what-else wrong with them and some of them had numbers tattooed on their tails.[WTH?]

I wasted $40 on those mice because not a single snake would eat them.

Unfortunately I couldn't get my money back because I bought them from a guy who had overstock and he was the original purchaser.

I rarely post here so there is a high likelihood that many/most here do not know who I am and so you will probably question my credibility. So be it. Those of you who do know who I am will understand why I am posting now. To anyone who wants to know more about me and my credibility, you can find my postings in other haunts.

Now, on with the show.

I have read the actual research article and I can assure you that the science behind it is absolutely accurate. This is not some smokescreen money-laundering, sheep:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:ers propaganda as Skip is trying to make people believe. I would bet good money that Skip did not even bother to read the real article and is just going off of the major media garbage that is floating around out there. And as far as Skips linking to things Jeff has said in the past... I would love to see Jeff's PhD that gives him the authority to decide anything about microbiology, infectious diseases, genetics, or any science for that matter. Just because Jeff keeps snakes does not mean he knows one whit about science. And something Jeff said 7 years ago should not be held as absolute fact today. The world is not static, new information is learned all the time and people can and do change their minds. And if Jeff still wants to say that IBD is not real and if Skip still wants to say that this article is bull:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:... So be it. Facts do not change simply because you chose to ignore them.


To clear up some of the things I have seen people here asking/saying...

The study does not definitively identify these viruses as the source for IBD. However, it does postulate that these viruses are a very likely candidate hence the specific choice of words in the title of the article. The only thing missing to prove the newly discovered agents are the cause would be by executing Koch's Postulate. As reactive as the herp world is I am not surprised that the authors did not set out to do that, they did the next best thing however with their work on cultured cells.

The viruses described in the article are a new clade of a family of viruses that, until now, has only been found in mammals, primarily, but not exclusively, rodents. Think of it as basically being a newly discovered species related to a know species. It is never really a surprise when a new species is discovered, it is only a surprise when one is discovered somewhere no one bothered to look on the assumption that there was nothing there. And that last is exactly what happened here, it was assumed that these types of viruses only occurred in mammals so no one ever bothered looking for them anywhere else. the great thing about science is that it is self-correcting. So, in addition to finding a new clade of viruses we have also corrected a mistaken assumption that this type of virus can only be found in mammals.

It is extremely unlikely that the specific viruses discovered and described in the article are transmitted or even able to be carried by rodents (or humans for that matter). Viruses are very host-specific and do not often jump species and those viruses that do jump are most often between self-similar animals. So the potential for a virus that is specific to the unique cellular biochemistry found in a reptile to jump into a mammalian host is on the none side of a slim to none chance. If you have even a basic comprehension of cladistics then the the phylogeny trees in the article will further support the unlikelihood. If you do not understand phylogeny trees then think of it like this: starting with yourself, go backwards on your own family tree eight generations and then climb back up by an entirely different path. You and the person you come back to are technically "family" but your are about as related to them as you are to me. It is that same degree of "family" that GGV and CASV have with the known mammalian viruses in this family. So put to rest any ideas that animals are getting IBD from bad feeder rodents.


My biggest suggestion is that people who are interested read the actual article at the link that was posted. If you have questions about it, ask someone who knows what they are talking about. Not some wanker like Skip who quite obviously has an axe to grind

There are several viruses that are able to transmit between different families, such as West Nile. Avians are not that evolutionary different from Reptiles (relatively speaking) so there's really nothing impossible about a multi species virus that can infect both reptiles and mammals. I'm not saying this is the case, but it's a little foolish to immediately strike it out as a possibility, however remote. The authors who published the study haven't done so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by asplundii

I rarely post here so there is a high likelihood that many/most here do not know who I am and so you will probably question my credibility. So be it. Those of you who do know who I am will understand why I am posting now. To anyone who wants to know more about me and my credibility, you can find my postings in other haunts.

---

I can vouch for asplundii's credibility

I thought Skip was being sarcastic.. Not actually agreeing with Jeff that is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I can vouch for asplundii's credibility

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he might be credible but apparently he's not yet encountered uncle skippy in his other haunts. or bothered to read the link he posted detailing his own experience with the disease. but either way, the tone was pretty clearly sarcastic false bravado.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ASSplundii

I rarely post here so there is a high likelihood that many/most here do not know who I am and so you will probably question my credibility. So be it. Those of you who do know who I am will understand why I am posting now. To anyone who wants to know more about me and my credibility, you can find my postings in other haunts.

Now, on with the show.

I have read the actual research article and I can assure you that the science behind it is absolutely accurate. This is not some smokescreen money-laundering, sheep:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:ers propaganda as Skip is trying to make people believe. I would bet good money that Skip did not even bother to read the real article and is just going off of the major media garbage that is floating around out there. And as far as Skips linking to things Jeff has said in the past... I would love to see Jeff's PhD that gives him the authority to decide anything about microbiology, infectious diseases, genetics, or any science for that matter. Just because Jeff keeps snakes does not mean he knows one whit about science. And something Jeff said 7 years ago should not be held as absolute fact today. The world is not static, new information is learned all the time and people can and do change their minds. And if Jeff still wants to say that IBD is not real and if Skip still wants to say that this article is bull:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:... So be it. Facts do not change simply because you chose to ignore them.


To clear up some of the things I have seen people here asking/saying...

The study does not definitively identify these viruses as the source for IBD. However, it does postulate that these viruses are a very likely candidate hence the specific choice of words in the title of the article. The only thing missing to prove the newly discovered agents are the cause would be by executing Koch's Postulate. As reactive as the herp world is I am not surprised that the authors did not set out to do that, they did the next best thing however with their work on cultured cells.

The viruses described in the article are a new clade of a family of viruses that, until now, has only been found in mammals, primarily, but not exclusively, rodents. Think of it as basically being a newly discovered species related to a know species. It is never really a surprise when a new species is discovered, it is only a surprise when one is discovered somewhere no one bothered to look on the assumption that there was nothing there. And that last is exactly what happened here, it was assumed that these types of viruses only occurred in mammals so no one ever bothered looking for them anywhere else. the great thing about science is that it is self-correcting. So, in addition to finding a new clade of viruses we have also corrected a mistaken assumption that this type of virus can only be found in mammals.

It is extremely unlikely that the specific viruses discovered and described in the article are transmitted or even able to be carried by rodents (or humans for that matter). Viruses are very host-specific and do not often jump species and those viruses that do jump are most often between self-similar animals. So the potential for a virus that is specific to the unique cellular biochemistry found in a reptile to jump into a mammalian host is on the none side of a slim to none chance. If you have even a basic comprehension of cladistics then the the phylogeny trees in the article will further support the unlikelihood. If you do not understand phylogeny trees then think of it like this: starting with yourself, go backwards on your own family tree eight generations and then climb back up by an entirely different path. You and the person you come back to are technically "family" but your are about as related to them as you are to me. It is that same degree of "family" that GGV and CASV have with the known mammalian viruses in this family. So put to rest any ideas that animals are getting IBD from bad feeder rodents.


My biggest suggestion is that people who are interested read the actual article at the link that was posted. If you have questions about it, ask someone who knows what they are talking about. Not some wanker like Skip who quite obviously has an axe to grind

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Looks like someone didn't read my link and has a hard time with concept of sarcasm. Or maybe you couldn't grasp that I was raking his Majesty the Boaphile over the coals for his incredibly backwards and self centered reasons for being an IBD denier. My entire post was so over the top sarcastic and inane that I figured that only the most idiotic of idiots would take it seriously...........

Congratulations, you just illustrated to the entire community what a humorless twit you are - and that your reading comprehension level is diddly over squat. Next time pull your head out of your rectum before you post.

It's obvious if any axes need to be ground around here, your thick skull would make an excellent sharpener. Any credibility you have bucko, just dissapeared. People are laughing their butts off that you took that post seriously.

Hope that helps,

Skip

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

This cannot be true!

I have it on the bestest of authorities that IBD DOES NOT EXIST!

All of the people who have been devastated by it or lost beloved pets by it have been fooled by some vast conspiracy.

Don't believe me? Well maybe you will believe the utmost authority on all things boa:

http://www.pethobbyist.com/articles/...tJeffRonne.htm

Scroll down to:

roxydementia: what do you think the future holds for IBD research? i have had 2 suspec boas (did not know where to send them back then to be sure) but no one else in the collection was infected its been years. i now run an informal rescue and keep new ones out at least 6 months, but that limits me on space big time, any experiance or advice for me? (any interest in donating cages to a rescue LOL)
rzaology: ?

boaphile: It is a really long story... but I do not believe IBD exists. I need to write this up along with all my many many years of anecdotal evedence garnered from tons of people who had been told differently. I can't expalin it all now that is for sure. GA


and:

http://www.kingsnake.com/chat/jeff_ronne.html

RonB- IBD, your thoughts?
TheBoaphile - I don't believe in it. Long story.
TheBoaphile - Too long to explain here. I need to write something up on it...
TheBoaphile - The IBD wackos are moving away from their once long held, bordering on religeous, belief about it now...

See, all you IBD "whackos" have been misled. THERE IS NO IBD!

So sorry ER12, IBD exists in the same magical land as the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and OJ Simpson's innocence! You have been suckered in by the conspiracy. One of these days the Boaphile will come around with his comprehensive write up including all of his evidence and put this sad farce to bed once and for all.

Elliott Jacobson and his program at UF will be unmasked for the money laundering operation that funds the sheep sex trade in Kazakhstan. And Buchmeir will be exposed as the Kris Kardashian of the Microbiology and Epidemiology community - selling his soul for fame. Wait and see! Wait and see!

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Bumping this to the top.

Re-read it very carefully Asplundii.............do you see the sarcasm? Do you see how over the top it is?

Do you get it now or do I have to take you line by line through it?

Oh boy.

It has now come to my attention that several people are discussing this thread and took my post seriously. I do over the top sarcasm and subtle sarcasm. This one was no where close to subtle. I am frankly amazed anyone would have taken it seriously. In an effort to unknot some panties...............:

Here's some background on my dealings with IBD:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ight=inclusion

and one of my previous jabs at the Boaphile for his past (present?) stance on IBD (go to the last post):

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1871965

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

My entire post was so over the top sarcastic and inane that I figured that only the most idiotic of idiots would take it seriously...........

---

guess ill fall under that group then, I dont understand why on earth you would bring, what is now understood as random misinformation out of basically no where. Was it just "someone said IBD, I must bring this up!". So you took the time to post it so there must of been some sort of point..... then the link you post could easily tie into your sarcasm when you are thinking it does, hence my confusion on the 2nd post. Skip being over the top with his words.... yes im going to see that as sarcasm, he is normally such a dull character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

guess ill fall under that group then, I dont understand why on earth you would bring, what is now understood as random misinformation out of basically no where. Was it just "someone said IBD, I must bring this up!". So you took the time to post it so there must of been some sort of point..... then the link you post could easily tie into your sarcasm when you are thinking it does, hence my confusion on the 2nd post. Skip being over the top with his words.... yes im going to see that as sarcasm, he is normally such a dull character.

---

Tell you what, OWAL, let me explain why I always reference back to the Boaphile quotes. Maybe then it will put this whole thing into context. Then again, maybe it won't..........

A number of years ago I had to deal with IBD. It was chronicled here and on some other forums. How it occurred (in two long term animals) and what we went through in terms of testing, emotions, money stress etc.(including things I learned that were contrary to the common wisdom at the time) were openly shared.

At the time, there was a real fear in the snake community that it could jump to colubrids, and while my collection of boas was very small, my group of colubrids and antaresia and aspidites encompassed some animals that are fairly rare in the States and whose history with me goes back almost 30 years.

I made a conscious effort to share everything that I was learning and guess what? I took a drubbing for it.

Many people in the boa community sent me PMs and emails accusing me of fear mongering and more people than I could have ever imagined claimed that IBD did not exist. The proof that was cited? Well, the number one reference was Ronne's quotes.

Now whether Jeff still denies the existence of IBD or not - I don't know and could care less. The fact is that he did and that the fact that he was considered by some the final say in all things boa was constantly used against me. Why do I still bring it up? Well, OWAL, some of those people who used those quotes against me (and posts he has made on other forums) still post on this forum today. It's my way of needling them back for the BS they tried to fling at me. In fact, in some cases, I am careful to use their very words.......

I'll go ahead and drop my knife and hold out my hand to Travis or anyone else I've snapped at in this thread. IBD is deadly serious to me. I had to euthanize long term animals I cared about and had to sacrifice more for testing. I spent a long stretch of time in constant dread of walking into the snake house and more importantly, my faith in this community plummeted. I saw people who were more concerned that by me sharing my experiences, that it would hurt their bottom line. When I heard from the IBD researchers that the boa community was literally not supporting their research, I decided that I was done with boids and the subset of hypocritical jackasses who seemed to be their voice at the time.

There are people in this business that I will not spend a penny on because of their stance on this issue. I have made it a point to not support deniers. I also give annually to IBD research and have repeatedly encouraged people to support the work of Dr. Jacobson and others.

If anyone wishes to discuss this further, you can PM me. That includes anyone else who has been cross linked to this thread on other forums.

before this thread I was not aware of any of your previous dealing with it, if I was a member when this happened... i missed it completely, sorry. :( I was also completely unaware there are people who are in denial of it. As I stated above, I have seen it first hand (or IBD like symptoms, it wasn't actually diagnosed) so it strikes me just as odd to hear that, as it must of struck you at the time. I can see where your frustration would come from, taking a lashing for telling the truth. There does seem to be a few who are put on a God Pedestal and what they say is law, regardless of the facts.

Knowing all this now, I can completely understand. You have to admit though, for those of us out of the loop it was pretty damn confusing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

before this thread I was not aware of any of your previous dealing with it, if I was a member when this happened... i missed it completely, sorry. :( I was also completely unaware there are people who are in denial of it. As I stated above, I have seen it first hand (or IBD like symptoms, it wasn't actually diagnosed) so it strikes me just as odd to hear that, as it must of struck you at the time. I can see where your frustration would come from, taking a lashing for telling the truth. There does seem to be a few who are put on a God Pedestal and what they say is law, regardless of the facts.

Knowing all this now, I can completely understand. You have to admit though, for those of us out of the loop it was pretty damn confusing.

---

People still deny it and others refuse to believe that there is a possibility that a certain percentage of boas may be infected but remain asymptomatic indefinitely. On one of the forums, there was a gang of moderators who threatened me with infractions. On another (a Canadian one), the site admin blocked all of my posts for review until I emailed him scans of the various tests and vet reports that were done. Then he thanked me and banned me.

When interviewed, IBD researchers are pretty open with their scorn at the lack of support from the boa community.

There was a subset of people who openly recognized IBD existed but told me that the information I was passing along regarding that it could manifest itself as a series of subclinical issues or not manifest at all was scare mongering. Even when I shared e-mails between the staff at UCD and Dr. Jacobson they still openly argued with me.

So while some people are amazed that there is a sub-sect of deniers out there, I maintain that they are still in some form of denial. The very fact that IBD research is so poorly funded points to that.

The cynical part of me wonders how long this breakthrough would have taken if the Academy of Sciences hadn't had an outbreak....................

So what's motivating the denial? I understand that it's easy to form conflicting opinions when most of the evidence is anecdotal, and different anecdotes have different endings, because it manifests widely differently in different animals... but the large scale denial, what's driving that?

Is it the fact python owners are basically a large population of potential future boa buyers, and this is terrible press for boas? So every time another python owner's collection is devastated by IBD, the boa people groan inwardly the same we groan whenever another dumb monster python owner gets strangled by his african rock, or another huge Burmese is found under somebody's house?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loonunit

So what's motivating the denial? I understand that it's easy to form conflicting opinions when most of the evidence is anecdotal, and different anecdotes have different endings, because it manifests widely differently in different animals... but the large scale denial, what's driving that?

Is it the fact python owners are basically a large population of potential future boa buyers, and this is terrible press for boas? So every time another python owner's collection is devastated by IBD, the boa people groan inwardly the same we groan whenever another dumb monster python owner gets strangled by his african rock, or another huge Burmese is found under somebody's house?

---

Well, I would hazard a guess that money is a driving force.

I mean, if some of the comments made by researchers are correct and that many of the boas donated for research were shown to be asymptomatic carriers and I think it was the Merck Manual that stated that upwards of half the boas necropsied for non-IBD issues were found to be carriers.

So, if you are a boa breeder, what are your options? You've got people researching the disease saying that upwards of 1/3 to 1/2 of all boas may be asymptomatic carriers. Whether that is accurate or not, or whether or not only a small percentage of those animals become sick or are capable of infecting other snakes, and considering there is not a 100% accurate screening test on live animals, how do you assure people your collection is free of the disease?

At that point if you acknowledge the possibilities and acknowledge the Merck statistics and the earlier Belgian study and take Dr. Jacobson at his word, you acknowledge that you run a large statistical chance of selling someone a snake that is a carrier. Remember, you can't say your collection is really clear.......can you?

So for years the mantra was that if IBD was acknowledged that it struck down pythons lightning quick and boas showed neurological symptoms. Now, we've had Dr. Jacobson and others repeatedly state that pythons may be able to go just as long as boas in terms of being asymptomatic and that it often manifests itself as a series of subclinical infections ranging from mouth rot to anorexia to chronic RIs.

Some people still stubbornly cling to the old facts, regardless of what is published.

So then I'd also like to know what fraction of captive pythons are also "asymptomatic" carriers.

... but leaving that aside, and still assuming IBD originated with boas, it also means that any imported boas are pretty likely to have it.

We need a better blood test. Resistance from the boa community, yeah, I know, but this could turn out to just be something boas and boa owners have to live with, like toxoplasmosis and FIV in cats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loonunit

So then I'd also like to know what fraction of captive pythons are also "asymptomatic" carriers.

... but leaving that aside, and still assuming IBD originated with boas, it also means that any imported boas are pretty likely to have it.

We need a better blood test. Resistance from the boa community, yeah, I know, but this could turn out to just be something boas and boa owners have to live with, like toxoplasmosis and FIV in cats.

---

Alex (Kitedemon) has also corresponded with Dr. Jacobson. I can't remember the exact details of the e-mail, but the general gist was that they didn't have anything indicating that pythons go quickly or what % were even carriers.

That pretty much mirrors my correspondence with him in which many of the old assumptions were casually swatted away. What I would suggest is that you email that question to Dr. J - I don't know one person who he hasn't quickly returned an e-mail to.

In one of my email's strings with a vet at UCD, he made a comment that they just weren't seeing the same IBD numbers in pythons and that there were several python species (antaresia/aspidites included) that, as far as he knew, had never tested positive for the virus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'll go ahead and drop my knife and hold out my hand to Travis or anyone else I've snapped at in this thread. IBD is deadly serious to me. I had to euthanize long term animals I cared about and had to sacrifice more for testing. I spent a long stretch of time in constant dread of walking into the snake house and more importantly, my faith in this community plummeted. I saw people who were more concerned that by me sharing my experiences, that it would hurt their bottom line. When I heard from the IBD researchers that the boa community was literally not supporting their research, I decided that I was done with boids and the subset of hypocritical jackasses who seemed to be their voice at the time.

---

Skip,

Seems I went off half-cocked.

I accept your hand and I hold out mine in return. Forgive and forget?

You say you were being obviously sarcastic, and with the further background you provided I believe that. When your post was called to my attention however I did not read sarcasm. What I read was the snark and condescension that I hear from people who have taken a hard-core stance against something and evidence be damned (kind of the way you say elements of the boa community have done.) Blame it on the lack of context in the typed words on a forum, that is what I saw. And that rankled me, tow-fold; I have not had the misfortune of IBD but I had a buddy that lost a huge number of animals to it and, as a scientist myself, I get a bit defensive when people slam scientist under the guise of "science is evil and scientists lie just to promote their own lies." Your post came off to me as a disrespect for people like my friend and a disrespect of my cohorts. In your initial reply to my post you called me a "humorless twit". You are half-right, I take IBD as deadly serious as you. But, where as you respond with sarcasm and humor, I take a wholly humorless stance. I did not see your post as a "joke" so I did not reply as if it was a "joke". As for the "twit" half... I have been called worse in my days, and will probably be called worse in the future. :gj:

Again, my apologies for coming down like a tonne of bricks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

So, if you are a boa breeder, what are your options? You've got people researching the disease saying that upwards of 1/3 to 1/2 of all boas may be asymptomatic carriers. Whether that is accurate or not, or whether or not only a small percentage of those animals become sick or are capable of infecting other snakes, and considering there is not a 100% accurate screening test on live animals, how do you assure people your collection is free of the disease?

At that point if you acknowledge the possibilities and acknowledge the Merck statistics and the earlier Belgian study and take Dr. Jacobson at his word, you acknowledge that you run a large statistical chance of selling someone a snake that is a carrier. Remember, you can't say your collection is really clear.......can you?

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by loonunit

We need a better blood test.

---

The tests that were developed as part of this study are very robust and can easily be developed into a commercially available test that should not cost overly much. And if these researchers perform a few other experiments (like perhaps a couple of deep sequences) they can probably refine the tests to be even more sensitive and accurate. Right now it is more a matter of finding someone willing to set up a "company" to perform the tests commercially...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loonunit

Resistance from the boa community, yeah, I know, but this could turn out to just be something boas and boa owners have to live with, like toxoplasmosis and FIV in cats.

---

I would contend that it is a little bit different. With cats and toxo (or FIV) you only have to worry about the immunocompromised and other cats and toxo is not a problem for cats and there is a vaccine for FIV... With IBD, you cannot really protect you other animals. There is no vaccine, no treatment. And IBD has the potential to be damaging to any animal it infects. Just because some animals are asymptomatic carriers does not mean that you can predict or safely bank on your animals becoming asymptomatic carriers instead of fatality cases

Hmmm....spread by rodents, or spread by mites/other blood-sucking parasites? Rodents may be carriers as well, but are they the prime source of infection for snakes in this case? I'm reminded of the bubonic plague, which while thought to be carried by rats originally was actually transmitted by fleas. Both of the viruses (and potentially the third) identified in this study are related to viruses that have either unknown sources or appear to be carried by rodents. You could test it but ultimately if it's mites or rodents or both that are hosts, what will the community do? It's not like there's a synthetic option to feed instead of rodents, and mites aren't going to go away anytime soon. The easiest thing to happen is that feeder companies start getting their colonies screened for these viruses and certifying if they're clean or not. I'm not actually sure if companies like that are required to have sentinels and do regular screening....I would certainly hope so....but if they don't post their health records for their colonies maybe it's something to start encouraging them to do. That way people can be assured the feeders they're getting are clean. It may, as asplundii has noted, be possible to come up with an inexpensive test that breeders and owners can use to ensure their animals are clean, and if such a test becomes available and people can start demanding that breeders certify their animals are clean. However, we still don't know if these are the only two (maybe three) viruses responsible for causing IBD....or if that is the exact cause of IBD, two of the animals in the study tested negative for viruses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Skip,

Seems I went off half-cocked.

I accept your hand and I hold out mine in return. Forgive and forget?

You say you were being obviously sarcastic, and with the further background you provided I believe that. When your post was called to my attention however I did not read sarcasm. What I read was the snark and condescension that I hear from people who have taken a hard-core stance against something and evidence be damned (kind of the way you say elements of the boa community have done.) Blame it on the lack of context in the typed words on a forum, that is what I saw. And that rankled me, tow-fold; I have not had the misfortune of IBD but I had a buddy that lost a huge number of animals to it and, as a scientist myself, I get a bit defensive when people slam scientist under the guise of "science is evil and scientists lie just to promote their own lies." Your post came off to me as a disrespect for people like my friend and a disrespect of my cohorts. In your initial reply to my post you called me a "humorless twit". You are half-right, I take IBD as deadly serious as you. But, where as you respond with sarcasm and humor, I take a wholly humorless stance. I did not see your post as a "joke" so I did not reply as if it was a "joke". As for the "twit" half... I have been called worse in my days, and will probably be called worse in the future. :gj:

Again, my apologies for coming down like a tonne of bricks.

---

Travis:

As someone who was more than ticked at the deniers, I get why you got upset. Trust me, I get it.

I'm more than happy to shake your hand...................and give you a bear hug to boot.

Craig