Help! My ball wants to eat me! D:

Now that the title has gotten your attention, I hope this isn't the wrong place to ask this, and if it is, please tell me so I'll know where to go and won't make the same mistake in the future.

I'm having a problem with my new ball python.
I've only owned two in my life, including this one, but I've done a great deal of research on proper care and maintenance, both from books and of course online, as well as asking breeders and experienced owners. I've owned and been around other animals (including other reptiles) since I was a baby, but I will admit that I am indeed new to snakes.
I can go into more detail about how mine are housed and cared for, if desired. However, this question is not concerning health, but behavior.

See, I got my first BP (male, a little under eight months old) a few months ago, from from a reputable breeder -- has only owned and bred for a few years but takes excellent care of his animals, provides the correct temperatures/humidities, only breeds animals of the proper size/age; no bad sheds, mites, scale rot, belly rot, or other health problems whatsoever.
All of his babies were handled regularly except after feeding or if not interested in eating for whatever reason (he never sells any unless they're eating very well from tongs) and as such these are some of the least-shy and most friendly, social BPs I've ever heard of, let alone met or been lucky enough to own.

After meeting mine, two people I know have actually bought one from the same breeder, one of whom previously disliked snakes -- my boy is quite the little ambassador for BPs!


And then I got offered a free female ball python from someone on craigslist.
Well, after having such an excellent experience with my little male, of course I jumped at the chance to have her and get a lady-friend for my guy, maybe even breed them myself someday.

This girl is 1.5 - 2 years old, and approximately 1200 grams. When I met her, she was very relaxed, even more docile than my boy usually is, and he's as calm as can be even when strangers and little children are petting and holding him. I was really pleased with her.

As it turns out, however, she has been fed in her enclosure for at least several months, if not much longer.

Now, I always wondered if the "never feed your snake in its enclosure, it'll become aggressive and bite you as soon as you open the lid!" was a bit of an exaggeration, mainly due to all of the owners who say they have done this for years with no problems whatsoever (you hear this about a lot of stuff, don't you? "I haven't had any problems YET"?)

Well, regardless of how successful anyone else feeds their snake in said snake's enclosure, I personally NEVER would, and (aside from worrying about substrate getting swallowed and hurting them) this girly is a prime reason of exactly why I would never risk it.

The moment I even walk BY the enclosure, she's coiling up her neck to strike, following me with her head no matter where I move, rigid as a board and snapping at the glass like a maniac!

If you think this is bad, opening the enclosure to mist it is a nightmare; I usually have to throw a pillow case over her head and watch her like a hawk to make sure she doesn't "peek" out from under it -- advice from my other BP's breeder who uses this method to get highly irritable females off of their eggs.

If I don't cover her head, she gives her very best attempts to nail me, whether my hands or even my face if I'm leaning a bit too close. She hasn't gotten me so far, but it's not for lack of effort; if anything, I've just been very careful and I have the reflexes borne of someone who makes most of her money by clipping the nails of foul-tempered cats and dogs.

The oddity? This is not, as far as I am aware, aggression.
In fact, she never behaves defensively or acts as if she's frightened or stressed; never hisses or balls up, just tries to bite me as if I tied raw pork chops around my ankles and danced in front of a rabid badger.

How do I know it's not aggression? Because as soon as you remove her from the enclosure (NOT an easy task, let me assure you), she's as chill and lax as an old limp water hose, not an ounce of the urge or intention to bite.

I contacted her previous owner with my suspicion, and sure enough, he's been dangling rats inside of her tank for ages.
Key word: tank.
I can even put her in a plastic tub (when searching for urates or droppings -- no way I'm doing that while she's still in there!) and she remains as docile as can be...because she hasn't been brainwashed to think "this specific type of enclosure = FOOD TIME" in anything but a tank.

I originally thought she just might be REALLY hungry, so I let snarf down three small rats (F/T, I would never feed live under any circumstances) and she finished those off in a matter of minutes and was still looking for more after the third, but my breeder friend advised me not to offer any more, to prevent her from having trouble digesting such a big meal and throwing them up, thereby wasting a meal and all of the energy used to constrict and then eat them.
Also, in his words, "a half-digested rat is something that no one should ever have to smell."

Even when there's no way she can still be hungry, she's a highly enthusiastic eater and as such, continues to strike at any warm object she sees outside of her enclosure (just about gave my cat a heart attack).

My breeder friend told me that regular handling can often help tame an aggressive snake, but I truly do not believe that this is aggression of any form -- just a very eager feeding response, with no more anger present than a dog who mistakes your hand for a tasty treat after you've been handling meat.

I plan to build her an enclosure reminiscent of the style of "vision" cages, and I assume that'll eliminate the problem (like when she's in a tub), but what about until then?

I'm honestly worried that she's going to hurt herself if she keeps this up, but I have no idea what I can do to prevent it or get her to stop.

If she were a dog or cat or something, I'd probably squirt her in the face with a spray bottle so she would at least learn to think twice about nipping at everything she sees, but I don't know how effective or advisable that would be with a snake, and I'd be worried about it being somehow harmful to her.

Any advice at all would be SO highly appreciated, you have no idea. Please help or direct me to someone who can, and thank you in advance!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10129013/pho...ska1_22812.jpg

P.S. Anyone know why she has those tiny white dots on her, like the one on the back of her neck? The breeder I know is baffled by them, said they might be scars from rat bites if she was ever fed live, but she does have a scar on her head from her previous owner having left an enclosure only half-latched, and she tried to squeeze out but got her head stuck and pulled it back in, scraping it.
That scar is jet black, as opposed to the little pure white scales here and there -- she's only got three or four of them, so I'm assuming she's not some really-really-REALLY low-white piebald or something ridiculous like that, but..any clues as to what they are, or why she's got them? I've never seen any other Normal BP with them.
Thanks again~!

Such tiny text...try to use larger txt in the future since I had a hard time reading it without zooming in.

For her striking in her tank, could she be insecure in the tank that's making her wig out? Is it very open while the tub you had her in was more cave-like and secure? If she's flipping out in the tank why don't you just keep her in a tub if that's where she's acting the best?

Also, I don't know what the white markings are: do you have larger up close photos of them?

And as for feeding in the enclosure, that's the ONLY way I feed and I have yet to have a snake become cage/tub (I only use tubs) aggressive for it. For swallowing substrate, I use paper towels so I don't have that issue. I personally recommend people to feed in their enclosures over not, and if they use aspen you can put a paper plate down with the feeder atop it (if feeding F/T).

I agree with the post above, but would also like ask what your temperatures/humidity are, most cage aggression that I have seen stems from improper husbandry or a hungry snake.

It sounds to me like she is stressed. How long have you had her? Reptiles need time to adjust to new surrounds just like any other animal would.

Feeding in the tank does not cause tank aggression. I have around 30 snakes and I feed them ALL in their cages. Feeding in the cage is less stressful on ball pythons and tends to be easier when you have more reptiles. I have a few that more than likely wouldn't eat for me if I tried to feed them outside of their tubs.

I've also been bit before without being hissed at. You won't always get hissed at and they won't always ball up. A tense snake is a stressed and defensive snake. She is hoping that striking at you will get you to leave her alone. With my snakes I see that if their whole body is tense they are more than likely going to strike at me and they are stressed, when feeding they don't tense up like that.

How is your tank setup? Is it open on all 4 sides? Putting black contact paper on three of the four sides could help her relax a little more. Another thing you can try to do is take a paper towel tub and gently tap her on the head to snap her out of strike mode before you pick her up. I did this with a few of mine when I first got them and now I can just reach in and pick them up. I hope that helps.

"Such tiny text...try to use larger txt in the future since I had a hard time reading it without zooming in."
Sorry! The normal size was really large on my screen and looked even more like a wall of text than it does now. Is there any way to edit my first post here?

"For her striking in her tank, could she be insecure in the tank that's making her wig out? Is it very open while the tub you had her in was more cave-like and secure?"
Not at all. She has two hides, one on the cool side and one at the hot spot; and a lot of fake greenery which blocks the entire back wall as well as the sides, so it's not as "open" as any average glass tank. She was kept in a glass tank before, so I wouldn't think that's the problem.
On the contrary, the tub is about two feet tall, and she had no hide whatsoever (since she was only in it for me to spot-clean the main enclosure), just a water dish on paper towels. The tub was a translucent color, so she could definitely still see me and the other animals outside of it. She watched upon occasion, but wasn't really interested and mostly just coiled up around her water bowl and relaxed.

"If she's flipping out in the tank why don't you just keep her in a tub if that's where she's acting the best?"
Because even with the heating pad I had under it and a space-heater aimed at one end, there's no way it's warm enough for her to stay on a long-term basis.
A few other reasons are because I don't think it's secure enough to keep her safe from escaping (it's just a snapping lid, not one with latches) and because I worry about my other animals tipping it over or otherwise disrupting it and injuring her or letting her out.

"Also, I don't know what the white markings are: do you have larger up close photos of them?"
A few cell phone photos that I took to show the breeder I mentioned, but nothing of very good quality. I'll try to get some next time I have her out.
They're definitely not lost scales or anything, rather, a few abstracts scales are simply liquid-paper white in color. I can't see how it'd be anything harmful, but I guess it's sort of neat.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10129013/photos/misc/spot_1.jpghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/10129013/photos/misc/spot_2.jpg

"And as for feeding in the enclosure, that's the ONLY way I feed and I have yet to have a snake become cage/tub (I only use tubs) aggressive for it. For swallowing substrate, I use paper towels so I don't have that issue. I personally recommend people to feed in their enclosures over not, and if they use aspen you can put a paper plate down with the feeder atop it (if feeding F/T)."
Sorry, but this is something I simply refuse to do, no matter how many times I hear "Well I have never had any problems when doing this."
It's the same way I feel about feeding live animals; it's something I will not, under any circumstances, consent to nor approve of.
It is no trouble for me to move my snakes when it's time to feed them, and neither of mine have any problems with being relocated -- I am willing to bet that this girl is so obsessed with nailing her next rat, she'd probably eat in the middle of a busy freeway during rush hour if you offered it to her there.

Sorry, but I won't consider feeding her inside her enclosure, least of all when I suspect it is the sole reason she has such a behavioral issue in the first place. I would worry about my other snake becoming like this, coming to recognize any tank as a place they're put when it's time to eat, and viewing any hand or even face or body that gets too close as the potential "meal".

Paper towels don't seem like any 100% positive way to guarantee no substrate would get in her mouth, and I refuse to risk an impaction.
Also, I don't use aspen, I hear it holds moisture very poorly and can occasionally mold. I use cypress bark and fir bark with some sphagnum moss, which I hear is the best option from most owners, breeders and informational websites, aside from paper towels and newspaper which, while not bad, is just ugly and annoying to replace so often.


"It sounds to me like she is stressed. How long have you had her? Reptiles need time to adjust to new surrounds just like any other animal would."
I know this. I've had her about two weeks now. If she was stressed, wouldn't she be far more likely to refuse to eat, rather than try to eat even a large cat sitting a few feet away? (the animals can't be what's bothering her; her previous owners had cats and dogs as well.)

"Feeding in the tank does not cause tank aggression. I have around 30 snakes and I feed them ALL in their cages. Feeding in the cage is less stressful on ball pythons and tends to be easier when you have more reptiles. I have a few that more than likely wouldn't eat for me if I tried to feed them outside of their tubs."
Congrats to you and all, but like I said, I would never, EVER risk that. And, getting her to eat is the exact opposite of the problem I am having.

"I've also been bit before without being hissed at. You won't always get hissed at and they won't always ball up. A tense snake is a stressed and defensive snake. She is hoping that striking at you will get you to leave her alone. With my snakes I see that if their whole body is tense they are more than likely going to strike at me and they are stressed, when feeding they don't tense up like that."
I am aware of this too, I have met poorly-socialized ball pythons who simply had a "go die in a fire" personality to all whom they encountered, and as someone who has spent their entire lives around animals, it really is a much different behavior and body language than what I see her displaying here.
Both of mine go very still and alert at feeding time, draw their heads back, stiffen up from the "shoulders" up, and then lash out at the offered thawed rat and give it their all to try to "kill" it. This is the same posture and the same look I get as when I wave a dead rat in their faces.

"How is your tank setup? Is it open on all 4 sides? Putting black contact paper on three of the four sides could help her relax a little more."
See above response. It may be a glass tank, but I've used enough greenery that it has a bit more of a "vision cage" appeal to it, to prevent them from feeling exposed in it.

"Another thing you can try to do is take a paper towel tub and gently tap her on the head to snap her out of strike mode before you pick her up. I did this with a few of mine when I first got them and now I can just reach in and pick them up. I hope that helps."
I've been misting her (not squirting her) in the face when she manages to get the pillow case off her head while I'm in the process of raising her humidity. This gets her to draw back a bit when I'd otherwise have to drop the lid and put some distance between her mouth and myself if I wanted to avoid a strike. I'll see if a light bop on the noggin with an empty paper roll will help discourage her though, if that's what you meant.

I'm not really worried about getting bitten, my little male accidentally got me on the way in my house, when my neighbor's rambunctious young pitbull tried to jump on my head to see what I was carrying.
He was aiming for the pitty's nose, but I put my hand up to shield my snake and push the dog down, so he got my hand instead -- I didn't even know he'd used teeth until I looked later and saw two tiny holes, both about the girth of a strand of hair.
I've received worse damage from a frightened two-pound kitten, I'd definitely pick a snake bite over most other animal bites if I had the choice..except my antisocial little canary, perhaps, who likes to "attack" me when I clip his nails and mostly ends up just being kind of cute.

My only concern would be if she did indeed treat my hand exactly like she does her food, and tried to latch on and constrict. I can't imagine that would be fun with even a tiny snake, let alone one of about three feet long.
I've seen a video of a young BP (previously fed live, of course) who bit and attempted to constrict his new owner's hand, but that was a pretty lazy attempt, not a strike. I'm not about to test it out to find out, but how likely is she to try this, if she did indeed manage to bite me?


"I agree with the post above, but would also like ask what your temperatures/humidity are, most cage aggression that I have seen stems from improper husbandry or a hungry snake."
80 - 85 F ambient temperature, 90 - 95 F hot spot.
50 - 60% humidity, 60 - 70% when shedding.
I feed both of mine once a week (one small rat for my eight month old/20" long male; three small rats for the 1.5/2 year old 1200g female). My male has only ever missed a meal when he first arrived home and when he was deep in shed.


Thank you all for the quick replies!

Agreed w responses above. Also, FYI it is perfectly ok to spray her w a squirtbottle. It will snap her out of that "mode" immediatley, usually, and should be able to pick her up quickly after tagging her w the water. Just make sure its on "spray" and not "stream" I think that woukd be a little un-called for, lol.

I spray my animals down almost everytime they are about to shed. Ya, its not their favorite thing in the world but I have never had a bad shed after spraying then nor have I ever been bit by a frisky snake while trying to pick them up immediatley after a couple squirts. GOOD LUCK!

I agree that she is just stressed. All of my snakes feed in their tubs/enclosures and I've never had an issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heathers*bps

I agree that she is just stressed. All of my snakes feed in their tubs/enclosures and I've never had an issue.

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x2

Cage aggression is a myth, made up by the same people who invented "if a snake lays next to you they are sizing you up as food"....you can't honestly believe that do you? People don't tell you it's ideal to feed them inside their enclosure because they feel like it, it's because ball pythons are easily stressed out to begin with, and removing for feeding, putting back right after swallowing can cause stress related symptoms (such as aggression? as well as not eating at all). I have at least 5 that would never eat for me again if I ever tried to remove them for feeding. As for the impaction? They digest bones, what makes you think they can't pass a little reptibark....or whatever you use. My boa has gotten countless mouthfuls of aspen without any kind of impaction. Ball pythons aren't exactly known for having impaction issues. I've had to remove some from his mouth before after a couple days, but that's only to avoid mouth rot, not impaction.

Instances such as "don't house snakes together" you can debunk the "well it hasn't happened to me yet" phrase, as there are countless reasons why it's not ideal for them, but not the cage aggression myth. Here's a lesson on how snakes eat.

There are two types of responses for biting. One, is defensive response, which is the strike and release behavior you are witnessing. The other, is a feeding response, which is obviously what you see when you toss a rat in. Contrary to what most people believe, eye sight is one of the last senses they use. There's a small organ called the Jacobson's organ, which allows them to smell 100x better than we can (cats have it as well). That is the first thing they use, then their heat pits as well as eye sight gives them the rest they need to find the food item (however, blind snakes hunt just fine only using smell). When you reach in, she sees you as a predator, not food. Unless you smell like a rat, you will not get a feeding response bite. It just will not happen, regardless of how many times you have/have not fed in the enclosure, if they don't smell it, it's not there. I'd look up the anatomy of a snake sometime so you can visualize what I'm talking about. I'm against "feeding tubs" because not only are your chances higher of a feeding response bite when reaching in to remove them (rat scent in the air from the rat they just ate), but your also causing added unnecessary stress, as well as chancing regurgitation from handling right after they eat.

Sorry for the novel, but you seem to have gotten some very misguided info from other people and refuse to see it for what it is. Either way, some people do it, and some don't, tomato/tomahto. As far as her behavior, it screams defensive. The options are:
a) she's stressed, for whatever reason. Could be husbandry (how are you reading temps? Some instruments are much less accurate), or could be simply from removing her to eat.
or
b) that's just the kind of snake she is. I have a male orange ghost ball python who's just a jerk....just because he feels like it. Not all ball pythons are cute and cuddly like people assume, it may have just been the luck of the draw and that's her personality.

Either way, reduce the stress, reduce the defensive behavior. Even if it doesn't go away completely, it won't be as extreme. Again, sorry for the novel, I hope she calms down for you. It's never fun having to reach in to change water and have a tooth torpedo coming at you. Good luck :)

Hey! I know that snake! It's Bella!
She belonged to my ex-boyfriend. He asked me to take her, but I don't have anymore room for an adult female currently. But I'm happy that you're on here! I've always liked that girl.

I don't think she's aggressive either, so I'm going to have to agree with everyone else and say she is still stressed from the move. How long have you left her by herself since you got her? Most leave their snakes alone for 1-2 weeks before handling to ensure a stress-free transition. And like you said, she has an EXTREME feeding response, but I've never had a problem picking her up in the past. Do you wash your hands before sticking your hand into the enclosure? Maybe she's smelling all your other pets on it? Is your tank in a high traffic area? That could be the cause as your husbandry sounds perfect.
If you're afraid of her striking, you can direct her head away with a paper towel roll.

I don't know what the white marks are either, but I always thought they gave her character.

I feed all of my snakes in their tubs and none of them are aggressive or have struck out at me. There's a poll/thread, here, that talks about feeding in the enclosure, and almost everyone who has commented said their snake shows no difference in temperament.

Regardless, I wish you luck with this girl. I believe she will settle down with time.
I remember Jon telling me he found the perfect home for her. Sounds like you're doing a great job. :)

Yep, that's her! =D
My neighbors (the same ones with the pitbull who can jump about six feet high) have a really nasty-tempered chihuahua named Bella (after the Twilight character) whom we see every day, so I've been considering a different name for her, Jon said he was sure she wouldn't mind, hah.
I really like Mariska, but it's not decided yet. Ironically, "Riska" has been pretty accurate lately, though.

The breeder I know, Mike, has offered to let me breed her to one of his two male piebalds or his super pastel in another year or two, once she's old enough and big enough. What do you think?
My male is a possible het pied, so if I were to keep any of her female potential offspring, I may be able to breed my own piebalds someday. SO beautiful.

She's in a very low-traffic area in my bedroom, I am the only one who moves around in here, and I'm almost always in my recliner or on my bed when I'm in here at all, so she can't see me. She mostly only notices me when I mist her, in which case it's "watch your fingers" time about three to five times a day.
And yes, I wash my hands before and after handling my scaly babies, just to be safe. I don't think it's scent that the problem if she's trying to bite me through the glass as I reach for her misting bottle, though.

Mike seemed certain that she just has a peculiarly high prey drive. I have to agree from how identical the movements are. I really don't think it's actual aggression -- otherwise, why would she be so calm, as soon as I lift her out of the enclosure? She could certainly still strike me if she wanted to, but she calms right down.

I'm very on the fence when it comes to "feeding in the enclosure can and does make them expect a meal every time the lid is opened". I wouldn't feed mine in there regardless, but even my neighbor, who recently flung a live mouse in with his, has had the snake strike at him when reaching in to handle it since then, when previously it would just curl up under a hide or explore the decorations and never objected to being held.
It seems far too coincidental to me, and I just see no upside to it when both of mine eat perfectly outside of their enclosures.

I had to handle my male once after he ate because his heat lamp wasn't working right. I was worried he would get too cold in a tank without a proper heating element, so I brought him with me to the pet store to replace it. Far from regurgitating or anything, the little lazyball curled up inside my shirt and never moved except to peek out once in a while. I definitely wouldn't do it again short of complete necessity, but the "don't bother them at all or they'll barf" seemed a bit of an exaggeration, at least with him. Thank god..I'd really rather not have a vomited rat in my shirt. Just..NO. =/

So far, I have only handled her once to feed her and once to spot-clean when she passed a urate about the size of a walnut. I'm used to the jellybean-sized ones that my Nicci leaves, so that was quite a sight.

Feeding her was amazing, I have to admit. "Extreme" is indeed a good word for it, I jumped about a foot with every rat she took, just from the sheer force and speed of her strikes. I sure am glad they weren't alive to feel it, she's like a cougar on a rabbit.
My mother was watching, and she got to "You just got her, do you think she'll take--" before shouting (and mind you, she never swears even the slightest bit) "DAYUM!"
She ate one right after the other with similar interrupted comments of "You sure she wants anoth--" and "Do you think she's even still hungr--WHOA!"
It was really awesome to experience, Nicci is a good eater but he never goes insane over meals like that, he rarely even constricts them with more than just his neck. One thing I can sure say about her, by no means is she shy nor a poor eater.

I measured the thickest part of her body's diameter before I fed her and she was about seven inches around or so. My breeder recommended bumping her up to a medium (which Jon said she has taken before) and then to a large, if the hips of the rodent aren't much bigger around than she is, no more than 1.5 times her girth. I hope so, with three small rats in one meal, she's going to eat me out of house and home if I don't do something.

As it is, I really hope I can get the supplies to build her an enclosure soon, I was going to go last week but my ride fell through due to a back injury (NEED to get my license..).
If she doesn't strike in the tub, I doubt she'd do it in a new enclosure, or anywhere aside from a glass tank, apparently.


I know snakes can digest an impressive variety of materials that most animals have trouble with -- fur, teeth, bones...but the thing is, teeth and bones are on the inside of the soft and squishy prey, rather than a rough, scratchy piece of hard bark.
I'd worry that it might cause damage to their digestive tract, or just get lodged in there somewhere. It's not a risk I'm willing to take, and if the problem really does lie in moving her to feed her, then I will happily tolerate an ornery little nipper for the next twenty or thirty years, as opposed to risking her swallowing something that could potentially hurt or even kill her.
If I'm right and she is only doing it because she keeps mistaking me for food, then I hope never getting fed in there anymore will dampen her enthusiasm about expecting a meal whenever something warm walks by.
..Although it was sort of amusing to watch my siamese kitty hop about half a yard upward when she struck toward him from inside her enclosure, and he was a good two or three feet away, to boot.


Also, I have four stick-on thermometers (two on the cool side at the top and bottom, and two on the warm side at the top and bottom), and one of the little round ones inside.
Cool side is about 79 near the floor, 84 near the top; give or take a degree or two.
Warm side is usually about 88 near the bottom and 93 at the top.
Both are a bit warmer on a warmer day and a bit cooler on a cooler day, but not by very much. There's actually not a lot of difference from day or night, I keep a piece of plastic over half of the screen on top to help keep in heat and humidity, without sacrificing ventilation.

Nicci had a perfect shed a few weeks ago, crawled out the mouth of his skin and it all came off in one piece, and I'm told this is often considered a sign of excellent husbandry (although as long as it all comes off, it's still just fine).
I think I'm doing really well on the temperatures, though it was a bit tricky to get right at first..I must have exchanged more than half a dozen different lamps and bulbs by now, and went through three different heating pads. The 250watt ceramic heat emitter I got brand new off ebay for $20 (as opposed to $60 in the pet stores for the same one) seems to be doing the trick, though.

Also, I just misted her and she tensed up her neck a bit, but didn't prepare to strike this time, even if she watched me pretty carefully, then withdrew somewhat while I misted. I'm probably just getting my hopes up over something as simple as her opting for sleep or rest, but any progress at all is still progress, right?

Thanks so much for all of the responses and advice, I really am grateful!

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Originally Posted by Dember

Sorry, but I won't consider feeding her inside her enclosure, least of all when I suspect it is the sole reason she has such a behavioral issue in the first place. I would worry about my other snake becoming like this, coming to recognize any tank as a place they're put when it's time to eat, and viewing any hand or even face or body that gets too close as the potential "meal".

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Bottom line up front, you maintain your animals anyway you see fit, but please be advised that your conclusion about tank feeding aggression goes directly against the experience of hundreds of keepers with thousands of years of combined experience, so you're running up hill right from the start.

It doesn't sound like you've had this snake long enough to know what might be pissing her off. You seem predestined to believe in the cage aggression myth, so I'm not suprised you fell back on that as your comfort zone when confronted by a stressed out and snappy BP.

If this snake calms down when you taker her out of the tank, that should be telling you something.

Analog (stickie) guages are highly inaccurate, especially for reading hot spots. I bet that's one of the issues.

Honestly, it mostly just backs up my suspicion that she associates the enclosure specifically with eating. Doesn't it kind of make no sense for her to get "aggressive" ONLY while IN the enclosure, if the problem is removing her from it? Mike has a female low-white piebald who's as mad as a hornet if you as much as move her enclosure, much less take her out. THAT is aggression. People who have met this snake agree that she is not aggressive in general, and I can't see any reason that the enclosure itself would stress her out or make her mad.

I know I don't conform to what every single person, hundreds or even thousands of them or not, happen to preach by; because there is no way TO conform to everyone's opinions. I can't make everyone happy, I simply have to do what is best for my animals, and if there are highly unnecessary risks involved with something, it's just really not a very appealing option to me. Like I said, I'd gladly chance a bite with every misting or water change or poop-inspection, than risk this girl getting hurt or dying because of a stupid chunk of bark mulch.
We could also argue about live vs. pre-killed vs. frozen/thawed for hours and nothing anyone could tell me could convince me to change what I feed my snakes, for a plethora of reasons I could, and would, happily spend hours explaining and discussing.
Okay, so "thousands" of people have fed live with no problems. There have also been people with four-foot snakes who got bitten in the head by a tiny hamster and died minutes later.
There's no benefit, why even risk it? I think we can agree that a lack of appetite is NOT this girl's problem, in any way, shape or form. She'd eat my husky if she could.


"Analog (stickie) guages are highly inaccurate, especially for reading hot spots. I bet that's one of the issues."
I've heard some real horror stories about the digital/probe ones that adjust the temperatures automatically. What would you suggest?

A temp gun. The right digital thermometer/hygrometer will be much more accurate and safe to use, even a crappy one is better than most analog ones. Highly accurate ones cost some money, but even a $20 will measure humidity and ambient temps much better, and the temp gun for hot spot temps.

Lets Officially debunk the Feeding in enclosure Myth.

I have fed Tic's and Burms in their rooms And never had an issue.

I feed my Ball in a separate tub because I use Aspen sub straight and He's a little guy.

I at times would feed the 12 foot tic I fostered by hand (Live) He was a big suck. The Burm would follow me to the corner.

Just try to listen to all the advise given here and digest it trust me even tho my post count is low I have read my arse off and learned a ton.

She sounds stressed out. And like satomi325 She is a good eater and that is never a bad thing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dember

Honestly, it mostly just backs up my suspicion that she associates the enclosure specifically with eating.

How?

Doesn't it kind of make no sense for her to get "aggressive" ONLY while IN the enclosure, if the problem is removing her from it?

Yes, that makes no sense. There maybe something about being in the tank that is upsetting her, and it's not getting fed in there.

Mike has a female low-white piebald who's as mad as a hornet if you as much as move her enclosure, much less take her out. THAT is aggression.

Some are just like that, most are not.

People who have met this snake agree that she is not aggressive in general, and I can't see any reason that the enclosure itself would stress her out or make her mad.

Key words, "you can't see". You explained up front that you don't have a lot of experience. It could be something that you don't see.

I know I don't conform to what every single person, hundreds or even thousands of them or not, happen to preach by; because there is no way TO conform to everyone's opinions. I can't make everyone happy, I simply have to do what is best for my animals, and if there are highly unnecessary risks involved with something, it's just really not a very appealing option to me.

Not asking you to conform, but rules of thumb get that way for a reason. As I stated up front, do whatever you see fit, but don't expect me to buy into the cage aggression myth just because you think you have a snake that fits the bill.

Like I said, I'd gladly chance a bite with every misting or water change or poop-inspection, than risk this girl getting hurt or dying because of a stupid chunk of bark mulch.

That's your choice of substrate...there are others that have almost zero chance of ingestion.

We could also argue about live vs. pre-killed vs. frozen/thawed for hours and nothing anyone could tell me could convince me to change what I feed my snakes, for a plethora of reasons I could, and would, happily spend hours explaining and discussing.

Been there, done that, please feel free. That's what Forums are for...

Okay, so "thousands" of people have fed live with no problems. There have also been people with four-foot snakes who got bitten in the head by a tiny hamster and died minutes later.
There's no benefit, why even risk it? I think we can agree that a lack of appetite is NOT this girl's problem, in any way, shape or form. She'd eat my husky if she could.

Again, I ask, are you sure you've had this snake long enough to know what's got her upset? I highly doubt it's a case of cage aggression.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dember

I've heard some real horror stories about the digital/probe ones that adjust the temperatures automatically.

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Do tell? Digital/Probe thermometers and hygrometers are pretty much the standard of the hobby.

I will look into tempguns (when you said that I read that as 'tampons' and thought you were messing with me for a moment).
I notice that my temperatures mostly drop when misting and/or opening the lid, but they rise again quickly enough.

As for debunking, I do apologize, but that's still one more person, and even a thousand who do it successfully really couldn't convince me otherwise on this, once more, when hundreds of thousands feed live with no problem, but that does not mean that the risk does not exist, and pretending or hoping that "it would never happen to me" is just foolishness, to me.

And, I quite agree. I'd much rather have a snake who wants to eat everything in sight, than one who's shy or timid or who turns down ever meal offered, or goes off of food for months. Mine went a few weeks during shedding and then ate like a horse the moment his eyes weren't all cloudy anymore, I'd barely moved it in front of his face before he had it in his mouth.


"How?"
How does it back up my suspicion that she associates the enclosure with eating? ... Um. ... Because she immediately goes into hunting mode when she's put back in there, striking at anything warm, but take her out and she loses interest unless there's a rat in her face? =/ ...

"Yes, that makes no sense. There maybe something about being in the tank that is upsetting her, and it's not getting fed in there."
If she's expecting to bite the first thing that draws near and I would like her to STOP doing this, do I really want to re-encourage that by dangling a rat in there, rather than "re-training" her to realize that warm things that reach in there are not food? ^^'

"Some are just like that, most are not."
I know. Nothing about this girl makes me think she's one of them.

"Key words, "you can't see". You explained up front that you don't have a lot of experience. It could be something that you don't see."
I did not get my animals blindly, I have read about snakes since I was a little kid, after an event at my school ("Oh My Goodness Snakes") that made me fall in love with them. Upon learning that they can eat frozen-thawed food, I redoubled my interested over the prospect of someday owning them. I may be new to owning them, but I am not new to knowing about them. If you don't believe me, believe someone who has owned and bred BPs and other snakes for years who agrees?

"Not asking you to conform, but rules of thumb get that way for a reason. As I stated up front, do whatever you see fit, but don't expect me to buy into the cage aggression myth just because you think you have a snake that fits the bill."
I wouldn't dream of trying to get you to believe something you consider a myth. Thinking something is untrue doesn't make it so, though, and if enough people have had this problem for it to become a "myth", then what are the actual facts behind it? I'd love to ask the snakes and find out what they think, but that's not really an option.

"That's your choice of substrate...there are others that have almost zero chance of ingestion."
And as mentioned, that is not the only reason I refuse to feed inside of the snake's habitat. "Almost" zero would still concern me.

"Been there, done that, please feel free. That's what Forums are for..."
A little off-topic, but not a problem. To begin: do you feed live? If yes, why?

"Again, I ask, are you sure you've had this snake long enough to know what's got her upset? I highly doubt it's a case of cage aggression."
There is no one hundred percent sure way TO know, again, I can't exactly get the animal to tell me. I've watched her for around two weeks, you have never seen her at all.
I have seen a dozen or more BPs showing various types of aggression, and I have seen many more who show a strong urge to eat, both in real life and in videos -- I must have watched thirty or more videos (this is not an exaggeration) on how to properly feed frozen-thawed food before ever attempting it. I do have a rather good idea of what they look like when they're about to latch onto a food item. Her behavior, in every way, looks exactly like the latter.
I can tell when a dog is wagging its tail due to excitement or if it's wagging its tail because it is about to attack another dog. I can tell when a cat purrs if it is content or if it is in pain. These are minute signs of body language that most people miss or simply can't pick up on in non-human species. I've always been a bit of an outcast and animals do tend to make more sense to me than most people do.
I really don't think this is aggression -- warm water in a misting bottle catches the same attention, because it's warm and moving around as I mist her..as are my hands, which to a snake, might indeed appear to be a rodent. I can't get rid of the smell of my other animals completely, even with washing hands, so I suppose she could smell mammals on me, too; but she lived with dogs and cats before without any issues.
And IF it is aggression, that still doesn't explain; why wouldn't she nail me the moment I pick her up to feed her or take her out to clean, or when I reached in the tub to put her back after spot-cleaning her enclosure? If she's stressed or angry, I can't see why she would only react when she's in a place highly reminiscent of where she has been fed.


"Do tell? Digital/Probe thermometers and hygrometers are pretty much the standard of the hobby."
They're on this very site, as well as others. The most memorable was the snake accidentally spilling a water dish on the probe and having the temperatures soar sky-high as a result of the probe thinking it was way too cold and needed to be heated up.
I want my snakelets warm, not well done. ._.;;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dember

I will look into tempguns (when you said that I read that as 'tampons' and thought you were messing with me for a moment).
I notice that my temperatures mostly drop when misting and/or opening the lid, but they rise again quickly enough.

As for debunking, I do apologize, but that's still one more person, and even a thousand who do it successfully really couldn't convince me otherwise on this, once more, when hundreds of thousands feed live with no problem, but that does not mean that the risk does not exist, and pretending or hoping that "it would never happen to me" is just foolishness, to me.

And, I quite agree. I'd much rather have a snake who wants to eat everything in sight, than one who's shy or timid or who turns down ever meal offered, or goes off of food for months. Mine went a few weeks during shedding and then ate like a horse the moment his eyes weren't all cloudy anymore, I'd barely moved it in front of his face before he had it in his mouth.


"How?"
How does it back up my suspicion that she associates the enclosure with eating? ... Um. ... Because she immediately goes into hunting mode when she's put back in there, striking at anything warm, but take her out and she loses interest unless there's a rat in her face? =/ ...

"Yes, that makes no sense. There maybe something about being in the tank that is upsetting her, and it's not getting fed in there."
If she's expecting to bite the first thing that draws near and I would like her to STOP doing this, do I really want to re-encourage that by dangling a rat in there, rather than "re-training" her to realize that warm things that reach in there are not food? ^^'

"Some are just like that, most are not."
I know. Nothing about this girl makes me think she's one of them.

"Key words, "you can't see". You explained up front that you don't have a lot of experience. It could be something that you don't see."
I did not get my animals blindly, I have read about snakes since I was a little kid, after an event at my school ("Oh My Goodness Snakes") that made me fall in love with them. Upon learning that they can eat frozen-thawed food, I redoubled my interested over the prospect of someday owning them. I may be new to owning them, but I am not new to knowing about them. If you don't believe me, believe someone who has owned and bred BPs and other snakes for years who agrees?

"Not asking you to conform, but rules of thumb get that way for a reason. As I stated up front, do whatever you see fit, but don't expect me to buy into the cage aggression myth just because you think you have a snake that fits the bill."
I wouldn't dream of trying to get you to believe something you consider a myth. Thinking something is untrue doesn't make it so, though, and if enough people have had this problem for it to become a "myth", then what are the actual facts behind it? I'd love to ask the snakes and find out what they think, but that's not really an option.

"That's your choice of substrate...there are others that have almost zero chance of ingestion."
And as mentioned, that is not the only reason I refuse to feed inside of the snake's habitat. "Almost" zero would still concern me.

"Been there, done that, please feel free. That's what Forums are for..."
A little off-topic, but not a problem. To begin: do you feed live? If yes, why?

"Again, I ask, are you sure you've had this snake long enough to know what's got her upset? I highly doubt it's a case of cage aggression."
There is no one hundred percent sure way TO know, again, I can't exactly get the animal to tell me. I've watched her for around two weeks, you have never seen her at all.
I have seen a dozen or more BPs showing various types of aggression, and I have seen many more who show a strong urge to eat, both in real life and in videos -- I must have watched thirty or more videos (this is not an exaggeration) on how to properly feed frozen-thawed food before ever attempting it. I do have a rather good idea of what they look like when they're about to latch onto a food item. Her behavior, in every way, looks exactly like the latter.
I can tell when a dog is wagging its tail due to excitement or if it's wagging its tail because it is about to attack another dog. I can tell when a cat purrs if it is content or if it is in pain. These are minute signs of body language that most people miss or simply can't pick up on in non-human species. I've always been a bit of an outcast and animals do tend to make more sense to me than most people do.
I really don't think this is aggression -- warm water in a misting bottle catches the same attention, because it's warm and moving around as I mist her..as are my hands, which to a snake, might indeed appear to be a rodent. I can't get rid of the smell of my other animals completely, even with washing hands, so I suppose she could smell mammals on me, too; but she lived with dogs and cats before without any issues.
And IF it is aggression, that still doesn't explain; why wouldn't she nail me the moment I pick her up to feed her or take her out to clean, or when I reached in the tub to put her back after spot-cleaning her enclosure? If she's stressed or angry, I can't see why she would only react when she's in a place highly reminiscent of where she has been fed.


"Do tell? Digital/Probe thermometers and hygrometers are pretty much the standard of the hobby."
They're on this very site, as well as others. The most memorable was the snake accidentally spilling a water dish on the probe and having the temperatures soar sky-high as a result of the probe thinking it was way too cold and needed to be heated up.
I want my snakelets warm, not well done. ._.;;

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Sounds like you have all your own answers. Nothing I can help with here. Good luck!

I think you're mixing up thermometer and thermostat. Thermostat regulates the temperature of the uth. Get an acurite digital thermometer from Walmart for $12. It can measure the hot and cold side as well as the humidity. It's a good investment. You can also get a temp gun. But as everyone has said, the stick on ones aren't reliable or accurate.

I use both an acurite and temp gun.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I think you're mixing up thermometer and thermostat. Thermostat regulates the temperature of the uth. Get an acurite digital thermometer from Walmart for $12. It can measure the hot and cold side as well as the humidity. It's a good investment. You can also get a temp gun. But as everyone has said, the stick on ones aren't reliable or accurate.

I use both an acurite and temp gun.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

---

I agree, regardless you NEED a thermostat, otherwise you risk serious burn.
Here's a thread I created last year on the subject, graphic picture warning.

You can't fry a snake from a shorted/damaged thermometer. So the horror stories you heard, may have been people who placed the thermoSTAT probe in the enclosure (which....it should be on the outside secured directly to the UTH).

Also, I would think feeding out of enclosure would induce a more aggressive response to you. The snake will associate you taking her out as food time.

But in the end, its your decision on what to do. We're only here to provide answers and suggestions.


Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

"Sounds like you have all your own answers. Nothing I can help with here. Good luck!"

For the most part, I have a good idea, yeah. My question was basically "what can I do to prevent her from biting" -- going to try the paper towel roll trick, and glad to know that it's not harmful or otherwise bad to mist them in the face to discourage them if they're considering striking.

That, and "will she settle down on her own once she realizes that she no longer gets fed in her enclosure here" -- maybe to see if anyone else has had this problem with a snake who strongly associated a certain kind of enclosure with feeding time.


"I think you're mixing up thermometer and thermostat. Thermostat regulates the temperature of the uth. Get an acurite digital thermometer from Walmart for $12. It can measure the hot and cold side as well as the humidity. It's a good investment. You can also get a temp gun. But as everyone has said, the stick on ones aren't reliable or accurate.
I use both an acurite and temp gun."
That may well be it. The ones I hear people talk about seem to speak as if the object that reads the temperature, is the object that regulates the temperature of its own accord, and that is NOT what I want.
Just a digital temperature reader would be fine, as long as it's not going to do that. I'll definitely check into those. There's nothing harmful about the probes? No tangles? I've heard of some people having to use tape to keep them in the right places, which can snare a snake and really mess them up. Are they easy enough to keep down with nothing to secure them in place?
Thank you!


"I agree, regardless you NEED a thermostat, otherwise you risk serious burn.
Here's a thread I created last year on the subject, graphic picture warning.
You can't fry a snake from a shorted/damaged thermometer. So the horror stories you heard, may have been people who placed the thermoSTAT probe in the enclosure (which....it should be on the outside secured directly to the UTH)."
H-- .. holy
........... I do not know if profanity are banned on this site, but I swore out loud to compensate.
That poor snake. I can't stop gritting my teeth as I look at those pictures, it feels like my stomach is in a knot. This is like when I've seen photos of people who have left live rodents in with their snakes unattended to return to a mutilated snake. I don't even have any words left for such sheer irresponsibility worse than most intentional cruelty.

I have tried three different UTIs and none got more than lukewarm to the touch, let alone penetrated the glass, much less the substrate. I eventually gave up on them altogether because they were useless in creating hot spots. Recommended over just a lamp or not, I can't seem to get any to work properly.
Does anyone know what substrate was that person using, if any? I don't think even one hot enough to burn one's hand from touching it could go through the substrate I use very well, but I don't have a lot of experience with really-really-hot ones, only really-really-pathetic ones. If that's a risk factor, I'm positive I'll stick with my lamp.


"Also, I would think feeding out of enclosure would induce a more aggressive response to you. The snake will associate you taking her out as food time.
But in the end, its your decision on what to do. We're only here to provide answers and suggestions."
I would think she would associate wherever I happened to feed her as meal time, not being handled in general, which will happen much more than feeding her, once she's had time to adjust to a new environment. If I have to get bitten upon occasion, I can deal. After a german shepherd once biting halfway through my forearm, I suppose I sure can't complain about a few teeth about the size of a needle.

I definitely do appreciate all of the input and advice, this community really does feel like a safety net at my fingertips. Thank you, all of you. I really do mean it.

Once I can construct a couple of non-tank enclosures, I think I'll post photos here to get some opinions on them.
Speaking of more opinions: what are everyones' views on automatic misting systems (sort of like the ones used on produce in grocery stores)? I've heard of some people using them on lizards. Yes, no? Why, why not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dember

"I agree, regardless you NEED a thermostat, otherwise you risk serious burn.
Here's a thread I created last year on the subject, graphic picture warning.
You can't fry a snake from a shorted/damaged thermometer. So the horror stories you heard, may have been people who placed the thermoSTAT probe in the enclosure (which....it should be on the outside secured directly to the UTH)."
H-- .. holy
........... I do not know if profanity are banned on this site, but I swore out loud to compensate.
That poor snake. I can't stop gritting my teeth as I look at those pictures, it feels like my stomach is in a knot. This is like when I've seen photos of people who have left live rodents in with their snakes unattended to return to a mutilated snake. I don't even have any words left for such sheer irresponsibility worse than most intentional cruelty.

I have tried three different UTIs and none got more than lukewarm to the touch, let alone penetrated the glass, much less the substrate. I eventually gave up on them altogether because they were useless in creating hot spots. Recommended over just a lamp or not, I can't seem to get any to work properly.
Does anyone know what substrate was that person using, if any? I don't think even one hot enough to burn one's hand from touching it could go through the substrate I use very well, but I don't have a lot of experience with really-really-hot ones, only really-really-pathetic ones. If that's a risk factor, I'm positive I'll stick with my lamp.

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My small zoo med also doesn't "feel" warm to the touch, but without a thermostat it reaches well over 130 degrees above the glass according to my temp gun, and that's with paper towel on top of it. Regardless of how you think it feels, you need a thermostat. Feed out of the enclosure all you want, but using a thermostat is not debatable. I can't stress it enough, I can find more evidence of severe burns from "luke warm feeling" UTHs if you want more proof...

Just because it hasn't happened to you yet, doesn't mean it won't...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dember

Speaking of more opinions: what are everyones' views on automatic misting systems (sort of like the ones used on produce in grocery stores)? I've heard of some people using them on lizards. Yes, no? Why, why not?

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I've used them with lizards/amphibians, but I wouldn't use them with my bp - the ones I've seen deliver a constant haze of mist, resulting in heavy condensation, which is far more humidity than the poor guy needs (even in a shed). I suppose there may be models that mist at intervals... but that still seems excessive to me.

I use ground coconut husks for substrate, which retains moisture very well, combined with a large water dish and I haven't had any issues with humidity - even in arid Colorado with the heat on all winter.

"My small zoo med also doesn't "feel" warm to the touch, but without a thermostat it reaches well over 130 degrees above the glass according to my temp gun, and that's with paper towel on top of it. Regardless of how you think it feels, you need a thermostat. Feed out of the enclosure all you want, but using a thermostat is not debatable. I can't stress it enough, I can find more evidence of severe burns from "luke warm feeling" UTHs if you want more proof...
Just because it hasn't happened to you yet, doesn't mean it won't..."

Like I said, I don't use them anymore, so that's not a concern.
And I mean "did not get warm to the touch" as in "this thing is so damn cold the cool end is identical"-cool, even after scraping all of the substrate away and feeling the glass directly above the heating mat. Perhaps the ones I got were just of a very poor quality, or (seems unlikely) all three had sustained some kind of damage?
I don't know, but I'd rather not mess with them at all when a ceramic heat emitter can keep both sides at a proper temperature. I'll definitely go for a digital thermometer as soon as possible. As for a thermostat that raises or lowers temperatures itself, I'm still extremely cautious here. Why do I need one if I don't use a UTI?
I'm genuinely afraid that it's going to malfunction due to water spills or for any other interference or reason, and if it runs the risk of frying my snakes...I have to disagree on how debatable using one is.


"I've used them with lizards/amphibians, but I wouldn't use them with my bp - the ones I've seen deliver a constant haze of mist, resulting in heavy condensation, which is far more humidity than the poor guy needs (even in a shed). I suppose there may be models that mist at intervals... but that still seems excessive to me."
I think a simple automatic light timer or something might work well enough. The reason it occurred to me was due to my Nicci promptly going and hiding under his greenery like it's an umbrella, because he dislikes me misting him so much. I thought that not only could I rig that up to where it doesn't touch or disturb him, but it would be a lot less invasive than wrenching the lid up just to spray him down and close it again several times a day. Best of all, I wouldn't have to worry about his humidity dropping, even if I'm gone all day upon occasion.

What about waterfall filters in a drinking/soaking bowl, to both filter the water and help raise humidity and cut back on the need to mist and disrupt them? I've seen these used on a lot of reptiles and especially amphibians. My boy loves soaking in the sink and swimming in the tub, so the thought of a little miniature snake-sized pond (not with deep water, of course), rather than just a bowl for him to climb into should he so desires, really intrigued me.

"I use ground coconut husks for substrate, which retains moisture very well, combined with a large water dish and I haven't had any issues with humidity - even in arid Colorado with the heat on all winter."
Isn't that akin to sand, which is highly inadvisable for BPs? I saw ground walnut shell bedding that looked and felt identical to sand, so I wouldn't touch it, myself.

I don't think its just me, ( maybe I'm wrong ) but it seems like everything everyone is trying to help you with, you are so quick to argue. I just don't understand why coming here and asking for help with things, yet argue with what we say?

When I was younger I had a heat bulb burst on me, showering the enclosure with scalding hot bits of broken glass.

I'm not trying to deter you from using the lamp. I'm just saying that whenever you use electricity to make something hot, there are risks and chances that you take, regardless of the method or equipment involved.

Don't let other people's stories spook you, or cause you to dismiss viable options. Learn from them, and learn what went wrong, and what they could have done differently.

"I don't think its just me, ( maybe I'm wrong ) but it seems like everything everyone is trying to help you with, you are so quick to argue. I just don't understand why coming here and asking for help with things, yet argue with what we say?"

I apologize if you feel that way, but with as much reading as I've done, every individual website, person and book is going to have their own opinions. Some swear by one thing and say there's nothing better, others claim that the same thing is horrible and that you should never use it.
When it comes down to it, I have to do the very best I can for my animals, and that's bound to involve doing something that, by consequence of being incapable of pleasing everyone, someone does not agree with or approve of.

For every person here who has said to feed a snake in its enclosure, I can get a credible source that strongly advises the exact opposite. It's really no different than "you should feed live food because I do/because so-and-so does, and I/they have done it for years with no problems." As has just been said on this thread, "just because it has not happened YET does not mean that it won't."

When it comes to my animals' health and safety, I am not a risk taker. I am not a gambler, they mean far too much to me to do something that has a chance of hurting them. Thus far, I have to choose a "risk"; should I worry more about my snake bumping her nose from striking at the glass, or should I risk making her much worse and even risk her life by offering her food in her enclosure?
It seems that I run a risk of being bitten either way, so that's no longer really my concern -- even if I do, like I said, I've definitely had worse. Sure, I'd like that to go away so I don't have a snake who treats my hand like a freshly thawed rodent several times a day, but I can deal with that over running the risk of something that could be harmful to her.

If she was refusing all food offered outside of her enclosure, I would be a lot more concerned, but she eats outside perfectly fine (and would probably eat until she either barfed or ruptured), so that does not appear to be the issue.
If anything, being too enthusiastic is the 'problem', but as I said, I'd opt for a snake who bites at everything, over a shy and timid one who won't even look at food. She may be a nipper, but it could be so much worse.

I honestly do appreciate all of the input, or I wouldn't still be here. I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I'm sorry if anything I have said has been interpreted that way.
I'm simply discussing and weighing the options.
As an owner, I, like everyone else, have things that I just won't consider, be it feeding live food or walking dogs off-leash or letting my cats go outdoors. If it could hurt my animals, it's something I won't do. Otherwise, believe me, I am all ears.


"When I was younger I had a heat bulb burst on me, showering the enclosure with scalding hot bits of broken glass."
I have actually heard of the exact same thing, which is just one more reason I went for a ceramic heat emitter rather than a heat bulb, infra-red or otherwise. This thing guarantees that you can throw the thing into cold water after half an hour of power-on and it won't break. I have seen ones that have been busted before, and they tend to be in large chunks, much more like a shattered porcelain doll than a broken lightbulb, and way too big to fall through a screen. It was the best and safest option I could possibly find, and so far I haven't heard anything bad about them, thankfully.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dember

I think a simple automatic light timer or something might work well enough. The reason it occurred to me was due to my Nicci promptly going and hiding under his greenery like it's an umbrella, because he dislikes me misting him so much. I thought that not only could I rig that up to where it doesn't touch or disturb him, but it would be a lot less invasive than wrenching the lid up just to spray him down and close it again several times a day. Best of all, I wouldn't have to worry about his humidity dropping, even if I'm gone all day upon occasion.

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Is the humidity level in his enclosure really so fickle that it might drop to an undesirable level in a single day? I don't mist Jackson at all, and the humidity in his enclosure stays between 50-60%. During a shed I place a wet washcloth in his "shed log" and drape a damp towel over the top screen.

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Originally Posted by Dember

What about waterfall filters in a drinking/soaking bowl, to both filter the water and help raise humidity and cut back on the need to mist and disrupt them? I've seen these used on a lot of reptiles and especially amphibians. My boy loves soaking in the sink and swimming in the tub, so the thought of a little miniature snake-sized pond (not with deep water, of course), rather than just a bowl for him to climb into should he so desires, really intrigued me.

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I can't see that a miniature pond would be harmful, but it shouldn't be necessary just to maintain proper humidity levels. As I understand it, BPs only soak themselves regularly if there's a problem like mites or high temperatures.

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Originally Posted by Dember

Isn't that akin to sand, which is highly inadvisable for BPs? I saw ground walnut shell bedding that looked and felt identical to sand, so I wouldn't touch it, myself.

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Ground/shredded coconut shell fibers don't carry the impaction risk attributed to sand or ground walnut shells. It's actually very similar to the forest bedding of their natural habitat, resists molding, and is very environmentally friendly.

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For every person here who has said to feed a snake in its enclosure, I can get a credible source that strongly advises the exact opposite.

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Could you provide a few sources for me? I would like to read their information and the basis for their recommendations.

Would be greatly appreciated.

For the thermostat, the probe goes on the outside of the enclosure between the tank and uth. So it won't malfunction due to water or in tank factors.

Thermometer probes and wires are not a problem in tank either. You can hot glue the wires down(but not the probe itself) if you're worried.

There is as much risk to feeding frozen/thawed as live. Just different risks. Both have to be done responsibly. When feeding live, the best you can do is feed smaller and more frequent than large and less often. Crawler/small rats are harmless. It's the adults that are potentially dangerous. Also be vigilant and watchfull during feedings in case something view wrong.
I can list a few things about frozen and live that can go good or bad, but I'm not trying to convince you to change feeding methods. If feeding frozen works for you, great! But I just wanted to point out, that there is a risk with frozen too.

A small pond is safe and ok to do. I know some members have one in their tanks for their snakes.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Dember

For every person here who has said to feed a snake in its enclosure, I can get a credible source that strongly advises the exact opposite.
Please tell us who this credible source is! And have them come explain this to a rather large group of people that have years and some decades of experience and knowledge.

It's really no different than "you should feed live food because I do/because so-and-so does, and I/they have done it for years with no problems." As has just been said on this thread, "just because it has not happened YET does not mean that it won't."
There are also risks involved with feeding f/t. And don't say you can control the risk of it, because you can also control the risks involved with feeding live!

When it comes to my animals' health and safety, I am not a risk taker. I am not a gambler, they mean far too much to me to do something that has a chance of hurting them.
There is always a risk involved with everything we do. No matter what choice you make in caring for your animals there are risks involved!
Thus far, I have to choose a "risk"; should I worry more about my snake bumping her nose from striking at the glass, or should I risk making her much worse and even risk her life by offering her food in her enclosure?
As everyone else has suggested she is striking at the glass and at you because she is stressed! It has nothing to do with feeding.

It seems that I run a risk of being bitten either way, so that's no longer really my concern -- even if I do, like I said, I've definitely had worse. Sure, I'd like that to go away so I don't have a snake who treats my hand like a freshly thawed rodent several times a day, but I can deal with that over running the risk of something that could be harmful to her.
You know if she bites you she might hurt herself! That is another risk you are taking with your animal. O, and I would rather have anyone of my snakes bite me instead of slamming their faces against a glass "fish" tank!

I honestly do appreciate all of the input, or I wouldn't still be here. I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I'm sorry if anything I have said has been interpreted that way.
I'm simply discussing and weighing the options.
You aren't exactly coming across like you are just discussing, you are coming across as if you know everything there is to know about this hobby and a snake you have had for a very short period of time!

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Honestly if you are so worried about the risks involved with keeping a pet maybe you shouldn't keep one at all. Not a single bit of advise that has been given to you in this post is going to put your snake at more risk than it already is. It will actually put your snake at less risk!:gj:

I don't understand why you came here for advice on this issue and then aren't accepting the advice given to you by every single member of this forum.

What's the point? You're wasting our time and yours. We're not saying these things just to say them. We're saying them because it's true to our experiences and those of other reputable snake owners.

**I should clarify that you don't have to accept every piece of advice given to you. But the fact that you've responded to almost every one of us with mistrust, if not outright hostility in saying that we're "wrong" in the advice and you've heard differently and you must do what's right for your animals--suggesting that we aren't ...

It's just ... what's the point? Everyone has different opinions, yes, and everyone has different things that work for them based on their situations, but certain things cannot be labeled as "opinion". It's like coming to us and asking us, "why does an apple fall from a tree?", and then when we tell you that it's gravity, dismissing it as "wrong" or untrue because you heard so-and-so say they had an apple fall up or something.

I understand that it's hard to stop following the methods that you're used to. Clearly, it has been working for you. However, the members here are highly experienced and have provided a lot of good advice that will benefit your snakes. In the end it's your choice to take it or leave it. They are your snakes after all. But I guarantee that the advice given here has prevented the injury and/or death of many other snakes.


Anyway, back to your girl. I've personally handled the snake before. She's really sweet. I've plucked her out of her old tank no problem and never experienced 'cage aggression' from her in the past. Like I originally stated, she's most likely stressed and needs time to settle down. I know it's hard not to handle her, but can you try leaving her alone for a week and see what happens then?

And I don't know if you have already answered or addressed this, but what size tank is she in? Perhaps it's too big for her? I know you said she has 2 hides and lots of greenery, but is it possible that she still feels too 'open'? Tighter spaces may help her settle and become less aggressive. You can put rolled up wads of paper towel or news paper into her tank. Even covering her cage w/ a sheet may help. And is she housed separately from your male?

I wish you luck.

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Originally Posted by k8nkane

**I should clarify that you don't have to accept every piece of advice given to you. But the fact that you've responded to almost every one of us with mistrust, if not outright hostility in saying that we're "wrong" in the advice and you've heard differently and you must do what's right for your animals--suggesting that we aren't ...

It's just ... what's the point? Everyone has different opinions, yes, and everyone has different things that work for them based on their situations, but certain things cannot be labeled as "opinion". It's like coming to us and asking us, "why does an apple fall from a tree?", and then when we tell you that it's gravity, dismissing it as "wrong" or untrue because you heard so-and-so say they had an apple fall up or something.

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Great advise!!!

I have found a ton of useful information here its awesomenessss at its finest.

One thing nobody has brought up, maybe out of respect is maybe she doesn't like this guy!!! :D

What size aquarium?
I see you talking about pools and water falls, with fake plants ect...

I find it odd, it sounds like she's not using her hides, bp's are known to spend majority of their time in their hides. Do you know the temps -inside- each hide?

back when I used overhead heat (lights) I had a hot side temp of 92. After I purchased a temp gun I found that inside the hot side hide it was over 100.