Desert problems

So I was really looking forward to doing a small desert project my first breeding season out, but after reading the "do you work with problem morphs" thread and reading that deserts were on there I started trying to look into it. All of it seems to be mixed opinions and confusing. So what are the facts exactly?

Do female deserts produce dud eggs or don't produce at all?

Im going to get a desert male at some point but I'm just worried the project might be a lost cause on my low scale breedings?

Also is this why males go for about $500-1k more than females?

Thanks for clearing anything up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

There's like 500 threads about this on every forum.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-females-breed
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...desert-females!
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nt-Perspective.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=34273
http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=29653
http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=33775
http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=27966

Well sorry. All my searches led me to conflicting info. Thanks for the links.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

I've yet to see any real conclusive information, but then again I've only had the patience to read completely through two of the enormous poo throwing arguments that the desert threads eventually turn into. I love the look of deserts, and when I can afford it I want to pick one up, just frustrated with the amount of rumors and lack of information

That's my problem. I live deserts but I don't want to produce more if I can't sell off the females for their problems.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Look at the MABalls videos on YouTube. Kevin McCurly pretty much says female deserts have not produced yet....slow growth, minimal size for age and food consumption, and inability to actually produce viable eggs. People have claimed to get clutches from females but no evidence has been presented. I can't see asking $1500-2000 for female deserts...IMHO it is stealing. They look great but from an investment standpoint they are pet snakes....$50. Just my opinion. Sorry if I offend anyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Look at the MABalls videos on YouTube. Kevin McCurly pretty much says female deserts have not produced yet....slow growth, minimal size for age and food consumption, and inability to actually produce viable eggs. People have claimed to get clutches from females but no evidence has been presented. I can't see asking $1500-2000 for female deserts...IMHO it is stealing. They look great but from an investment standpoint they are pet snakes....$50. Just my opinion. Sorry if I offend anyone.

---

I will agree with you on that. I just wish it wasn't that way.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

For the most part, boelens are pet snakes, but I wouldn't say they're only worth $50. Even if female deserts don't produce viable clutches, they still have some value in my eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

For the most part, boelens are pet snakes, but I wouldn't say they're only worth $50. Even if female deserts don't produce viable clutches, they still have some value in my eyes.

---

I agree that they shouldn't be worth nothing, but if your going to be doing a lot of work with the morph it will be a troublesome road. I wish PE was still up and going with their research on deserts.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Caramel Albinos, what else do I need to say?

I've spoken with many breeders in regards to the desert females and let me tell you people who actually have desert females seem convinced it can and will be done. One breeder told me he's seen pics of a super and it was an entirely white snake. Now all of this should be taken with a grain of salt because it was all here say. I did not actually see the snake but this is what was told to me. One likened it to piebalds when they were first imported and told me that when they first came in people were saying the females were having problems breeding and all it was going to take is time. I'm going to keep in contact with these guys and see how the breeding plans they have work out for them. One has 2 2000g females that were paired up for this season so I guess with time we will all see.

As for me I'm not going to spend a dime on the project until the kinks get worked out. That may cost me some money down the road if they ever produce but to me its worth it to not waste thousands of dollars on eye candy.

Honestly. I would still love to have a female desert in my collection. Just not willing to pay $1500 for one right now. :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HerpIsAhobby

I've spoken with many breeders in regards to the desert females and let me tell you people who actually have desert females seem convinced it can and will be done. One breeder told me he's seen pics of a super and it was an entirely white snake. Now all of this should be taken with a grain of salt because it was all here say. I did not actually see the snake but this is what was told to me. One likened it to piebalds when they were first imported and told me that when they first came in people were saying the females were having problems breeding and all it was going to take is time. I'm going to keep in contact with these guys and see how the breeding plans they have work out for them. One has 2 2000g females that were paired up for this season so I guess with time we will all see.

As for me I'm not going to spend a dime on the project until the kinks get worked out. That may cost me some money down the road if they ever produce but to me its worth it to not waste thousands of dollars on eye candy.

---

with all the people working with them for all the time they have been around the fact that there has been NO, 0, Nota piece of evidence offered to the public disputing the problems surrounding growth and reproduction, this would with out a doubt cause dessert sales, prices and interest to sky rocket tells me all i need to know. to bad because desserts are awsome. in a couple of years when people get tired of all the secret crap around them i will happily pick one up for $100 or $200 because that's all they will be worth. as far as pied's i still hear of breeders holding on to the het females all the time because they say the grow faster and are more prolific breeders than the visual pieds.

I don't think that the issue with deserts is going to affect the value of the males significantly, in the long run. Instead, desert combo males will become more valuable, because knowing that all desert females are just pets means that you'll only get half the number of 'viable' deserts in each clutch. That will make deserts (the males only) a rarity.
Desert combos still look fantastic, and I think they'll continue to do well, even if only the males have value to breeders.

If you breed a desert to a normal, you get 50% deserts, and 50% normals. If desert females are sterile, that just means that 75% of your clutch (on average) sells for 'normal/pet' prices (or little more), while only 25% sells for morph prices.

It all depends on how you look at it. Some people will avoid the morph, knowing they can't breed the females, while others will be drawn to it for its potential and rarity.

There's no evidence that there's anything wrong with the females, other than sterility and perhaps a slow growth rate. That just makes them good pets, it's not some fatal flaw in the morph.

I think it's going to take a while for the people who are invested in desert projects to come to terms with things, if the females do prove to be sterile once and for all. They will have to accept that they won't be getting $500 for those females...or, perhaps, even $100. That's quite a blow, but it doesn't have anything to do with the value of the males, which should remain high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

For the most part, boelens are pet snakes, but I wouldn't say they're only worth $50. Even if female deserts don't produce viable clutches, they still have some value in my eyes.

---

It was just a figure of speech. I think the combos look amazing.....but not thousands of dollars amazing if they are incapable of reproducing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jason_ladouceur

as far as pied's i still hear of breeders holding on to the het females all the time because they say the grow faster and are more prolific breeders than the visual pieds.

---

Jason, it all depends on the bloodline. My line of Pieds grow fast and large. I have a female Pied I hatched in Sept 2010 that is pushing 1400 grams. My Pewter Pied girl was hatched in August 2010 and is 1700. Another Sept 2011 female I have is already 340.....but these also originate from my female het, Bertha. She is just under 6' in length, weighs between 5000-5500 grams, and lays clutches of 13-14 eggs. My latest clutch from my 05 Pied female hatched last week. Her first clutch was 08. I've never seen the problems other people claim to have with Pieds. :gj:

One interesting side-effect of this which just occurred to me: It may put dozens of normally insanely high-valued combo morphs into the hands of pet owners.

That pinstripe - spider- pastel - fire - champagne - desert female is still a desert female, and still infertile. So, still just a pet--a pet that anyone could hope to keep.

It may wind up getting more people interested in ball python morphs, which will be good for the industry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

One interesting side-effect of this which just occurred to me: It may put dozens of normally insanely high-valued combo morphs into the hands of pet owners.

That pinstripe - spider- pastel - fire - champagne - desert female is still a desert female, and still infertile. So, still just a pet--a pet that anyone could hope to keep.

It may wind up getting more people interested in ball python morphs, which will be good for the industry.

---

Very true. But how many of those breeders will tell the buyer the females will not reproduce? Could be as bad as it is good. Also, when you get that many morphs in one combo, you could end up with a female that has desert genes and not know it. I'm not sure I'd be ok with that.

now i have not read anything on this but has anyone tried to breed a multi gene desert female?

Here are my thoughts. Desert Females do grow slower. I also know that female Caramels can and do produce good eggs every season if you do it right. I also remember when Het. Pied females would not grow for poop. 10 or so years ago most of everyone I knew that had het pied could not get a female to lay good eggs until their 4-5 year. They sucked at feeding, growing, and were hard to work with. Once the Pieds were more affordable they were outbred and you can get a female to grow and lay with no problems at all. Caramel females need to be kink free, have 3 years of growth and hit the size of 1800-2000 grams and you will get good eggs. if you breed the caramels too small or young they will slug out from that point if they are bred every year.

I think the deserts will be the same way. Get the females to 1800-2000 grams and an age around 3 years old. Don't rush to breed the females. If they are too young and too small just wait. I do think the combos and new blood from big females that lay large clutches will help with this down the road. I am curious to see how many female deserts have been given the chance to hit the 2000 gram mark and 3 years before trying to breed them. I doubt there are many of any at all.

If a young human girl is capable of having a child at 8 years of age and she is impregnated she will probably die as well as the infant with no outside medical help. We have ways around to make sure the mother and the baby live through medical technology now, but this is not the case with Ball Pythons. I know this is a little off the wall, but I think sometime we need to stop rushing certain things. it will be better for the animals and the market. I have some combo female deserts and I have no doubt in my mind they were produce for me. I just hope that once the answers come to light (and if there are close to what I think), the desert market wont be ruined by the lack of knowledge. Again this is just my opinion and I might be 100% wrong on the Deserts.... but I hope I am not.

:P They are gorgeous snakes. I just want to wait a bit longer to see if more females start actually growing old enough. How old is this project now? How old are the oldest females? We should either see females finally getting big enough to breed...or start seeing 5, 6, 7, 8, or even 9 year old girls still slugging out..

If they are indeed sterile, like said before, the males are still breedable and the females can be sold as high end pets. Pet price does NOT necessarily mean 25 bucks. I think of it sort of like the high end dog breeders. You will pay quite a lot of money for one of their pure bred dogs. But you will pay QUITE a bit more for a dog that is not fixed. These female deserts, if they are sterile (or almost sterile) probably won't drop as much in price, but definitely won't be worth as much as if they had breeding potential!

We'll see, we'll see.



And some people say the project is still too new. I'm curious--legitimately--How many more years until we should really begin questioning whether or not the females are going to work out? People say not to talk about it while it's so young/when there is no evidence yet... Just curious when it's okay to start really getting suspicious. Next year? Five more years? :O I really have no idea, I wasn't around during all these other early ball python breeding issues!

I think the issue is that the folks who have adult desert females aren't being very forthcoming. It's understandable why--there is a lot at stake.
I would say, 1 more year, 2 tops, and the truth will be known with certainty. If none of the females have produced viable clutches by then, we can safely say that none are going to.

Hearing all this I still think ill get in on the project, there's always a chance of some freak of nature.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kevinb

Hearing all this I still think ill get in on the project, there's always a chance of some freak of nature.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

---

Admire your persistence :gj: One day you will have a desert female that breeds like a beast and you'll be the one laughing :D :D

Gotta give it a try. If it is all age/size based like some say then it should happen sooner or later. Plus if they don't ill have some nice display animals. ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

A similar question was asked on the KS ball forum....see what Kevin from NERD had to say. If anyone would know I would imagine it would be him.

They have been around for long enough now. It's clear there is a problem with females reproducing.
Even if someone posted photos of a desert female clutch.
I'd still stay away, because that would be 1 in a 1000.
They're beautiful snakes. But I'm amazed the prices are still so high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kev.K

They have been around for long enough now. It's clear there is a problem with females reproducing.
Even if someone posted photos of a desert female clutch.
I'd still stay away, because that would be 1 in a 1000.
They're beautiful snakes. But I'm amazed the prices are still so high.

---

I agree that the prices are crazy, but I feel that breeders are scared to sell off a possible female that ends up producing after all.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Just my personal opinion, but if I could do it, I would not hesitate to begin a Desert breeding project. I'd be very happy to raise those girls up and see what happens, and not be in any hurry one way or another. I absolutely love Deserts and their combos.

I think a lot of the "mystery" surrounding them is due as much to public perception as it is to reality. In our culture of instant gratification and information, we have less and less tolerance for the "wait and see" approach. Less trust for it as well. We've become an impatient and cynical lot. When something doesn't turn out exactly as expected right at the same time that all our interests have turned to that subject...then we are quick to assume that our current perception of that moment is reality and that the only explanation for the apparent failure is some vast conspiracy pulled over on us by "them". :rolleyes:

I'll be happy to take any Desert females off your hands. Worthless creatures that they are. :rolleyes:

I think the more people who get involved in the project, the faster we'll know what's up! Those brave enough to buy them early get a chance at a huge payout if they breed as well as we all hope they do. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by purplemuffin

I think the more people who get involved in the project, the faster we'll know what's up! Those brave enough to buy them early get a chance at a huge payout if they breed as well as we all hope they do. :)

---

Hence why I'm getting involved. ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

Just my personal opinion, but if I could do it, I would not hesitate to begin a Desert breeding project. I'd be very happy to raise those girls up and see what happens, and not be in any hurry one way or another. I absolutely love Deserts and their combos.

I think a lot of the "mystery" surrounding them is due as much to public perception as it is to reality. In our culture of instant gratification and information, we have less and less tolerance for the "wait and see" approach. Less trust for it as well. We've become an impatient and cynical lot. When something doesn't turn out exactly as expected right at the same time that all our interests have turned to that subject...then we are quick to assume that our current perception of that moment is reality and that the only explanation for the apparent failure is some vast conspiracy pulled over on us by "them". :rolleyes:

I'll be happy to take any Desert females off your hands. Worthless creatures that they are. :rolleyes:

---

x2! My foolproof plan is to win the lottery and then get a Desert pin when it hatches in the summer from a breeding a friend of mine is doing right now.

I could handle winning the lotto also. :p

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Well good luck to you. Maybe you will be the one who finally sets the rumor to rest.

:oops: I don't have that kind of money to chance!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

A similar question was asked on the KS ball forum....see what Kevin from NERD had to say. If anyone would know I would imagine it would be him.

---

Kevin doesn't have an adult desert female. So I'm not sure why he would know better than anyone else...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Kevin doesn't have an adult desert female. So I'm not sure why he would know better than anyone else...

---

Agreed. I only know of 2 desert combos of his

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by purplemuffin

Well good luck to you. Maybe you will be the one who finally sets the rumor to rest.

:oops: I don't have that kind of money to chance!

---

Thanks! That would be really cool.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

I for one just bought a Citrus Pastel Desert female. I was very sceptical, but also enjoy the risk of the unknown. She is undoubtedly a gorgeous animal, and I will be crossing the fingers and praying she proves out and helps to set the story straight.

Tomorrow i have an exam about genetics, and yes i should be studying but i found something interesting in my syllabus.

It is a long text but i will only write a part of it since i need to translate it from dutch and english isn't my strongest.

I quote from my course:

Often there is searched for tempraturesensitive mutations. Temprature has a major role at the development of proteins. Temprature sensitive mutations are mutations in a gene that assembles, with a permissive temprature, a normal type proteïne. But at a higher restrictive temprature the protein will denaturate and looses his function.

So in my own words: A mutation ( lets say dessert) can cause a letal mutation, in a certein proteïn, but this will only take affect at higher tempratures.

I heard there are rumors about dessert females being able to breed at lower temps. I'm not saying this is the problem, actually the chance is pretty low this is the problem but maybe it is worth it to take it into consideration.

So if the letal mutation affects a protein that is necessary for lets say folicel development. Then the higher temps are messing up the protein. While at lower( normal) temps the protein is just fine.


But this theory has a tail. If this is correct, and dessert females are successfully bred, then this implicates that we are incubating eggs at a temprature that is too high.

Each protein has an optimum temprature, proteins that we have in our body do best around 98°F. They still work if we have a fever or are a little supercooled, but not that good anymore. They do best at 98°F.
With snakes this is just the same, they have an optimum temprature at wich there metabolism will do best. If it gets a little hotter, it wil still work, but not with the same efficiency. This means that incubating at slightly lower temps ( no man will know how much lower) can result in a higher succesrate of living youngster. According to what protein is affectet, less slugs, babies with a disability or whatever you can come up with.

I'm not saying this is the big solution, chances are very little. But I think it is worth to think about it. And there are breeders how are doing this wright now so there will be answers fast.

I don't know where you guys are getting there aren't pictures. I've seen plenty of pictures of desert females on whole clutches. Granted most of the time 80% or more are infertile. But follicular production doesn't seem to be the issue.

I'd bet $10 to a donut that it's temperature related and now that Chad has 0 desert females, it's going to be extremely hard for any other breeder to have a wide variety of females to evaluate different temps with.

I've heard from VERY reliable sources that temps are the issue. Another issue is impatience. People are usually trying to breed a female as soon as they hit 1300g because they want a return. Obviously 1300g desert females don't produce. From what I understand they need to be at least 2000g and temps need to be ambient of 80.

Also those of you quoting Kevin McCurley are amusing. He DOESNT OWN A DESERT! So why in God's name would you listen to anything he had to say about the morph. He doesn't work with it and never has. Not to mention that he keeps more secrets than anyone. How could you trust someone that's KNOWN FOR YEARS how to get rid of the spider wobble and has yet to tell everyone? I'm not saying people haven't been told, but has everyone? No. Isn't that a little shady? I mean he's more well known than just about anyone. So people listen.... He chooses to keep his secrets. Just saying...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

... Not to mention that he keeps more secrets than anyone. How could you trust someone that's KNOWN FOR YEARS how to get rid of the spider wobble and has yet to tell everyone?...

---

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time. And trust me, I read a LOT of ridiculous things on a lot of different sites.

If you're going to throw out accusations like that, you'd better be able to back it up with solid evidence or retract those words as the moronic rumor that they are.

So... NERD Spiders do not wobble?

Anyway, back to the main subject. Where are these pics of Desert females sitting on viable clutches?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time. And trust me, I read a LOT of ridiculous things on a lot of different sites.

If you're going to throw out accusations like that, you'd better be able to back it up with solid evidence or retract those words as the moronic rumor that they are.

---

I agree....also kevin DOES have deserts....I don't really know where your coming from saying he doesn't? A bunch of stuff he made this past year has desert in it somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

I don't know where you guys are getting there aren't pictures. I've seen plenty of pictures of desert females on whole clutches. Granted most of the time 80% or more are infertile. But follicular production doesn't seem to be the issue.

I'd bet $10 to a donut that it's temperature related and now that Chad has 0 desert females, it's going to be extremely hard for any other breeder to have a wide variety of females to evaluate different temps with.

I've heard from VERY reliable sources that temps are the issue. Another issue is impatience. People are usually trying to breed a female as soon as they hit 1300g because they want a return. Obviously 1300g desert females don't produce. From what I understand they need to be at least 2000g and temps need to be ambient of 80.

Also those of you quoting Kevin McCurley are amusing. He DOESNT OWN A DESERT! So why in God's name would you listen to anything he had to say about the morph. He doesn't work with it and never has. Not to mention that he keeps more secrets than anyone. How could you trust someone that's KNOWN FOR YEARS how to get rid of the spider wobble and has yet to tell everyone? I'm not saying people haven't been told, but has everyone? No. Isn't that a little shady? I mean he's more well known than just about anyone. So people listen.... He chooses to keep his secrets. Just saying...

---

7th snake down in the column on the right is a desert ghost. I suggest you check your facts before you make such accusations.

http://newenglandreptile.com/nerd/in...ollection.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike41793

7th snake down in the column on the right is a desert ghost. I suggest you check your facts before you make such accusations.

http://newenglandreptile.com/nerd/in...ollection.html

---

I don't have first hand knowledge about whether Kevin owns any deserts or not, so I wouldn't speculate one way or the other. But when you say someone needs to "check facts" you have to make sure your own are correct as well. "Desert Ghost" is an entirely different morph than the "Desert" that this thread is about.

Is that the same use of the term Desert that we are talking about? If a Desert female produced a clutch in 2003 and 2006 we would not be having this conversation. I think this may be a type of Ghost? I could be wrong, but that is what it looks like to me.

Edit: Thanks JLC, you read my mind. THis is the reason I really dislike the use of the same term on different morphs... Desert, Woma, etc....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time. And trust me, I read a LOT of ridiculous things on a lot of different sites.

If you're going to throw out accusations like that, you'd better be able to back it up with solid evidence or retract those words as the moronic rumor that they are.

---

Moronic rumor. Well according to Kevin himself, if you incubate spider eggs between 87.1 and 87.9 they have no wobble. Have you ever heard Kevin say that or seen him post it anywhere? I haven't and I cruise the forums just as much as the next person. Kevin openly admits to keeping information from people in his videos. The "old way" things were done. So I don't feel a need to indulge myself further. Kevin is all the proof I need.... HE OPENLY ADMITS IT!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

I don't have first hand knowledge about whether Kevin owns any deserts or not, so I wouldn't speculate one way or the other. But when you say someone needs to "check facts" you have to make sure your own are correct as well. "Desert Ghost" is an entirely different morph than the "Desert" that this thread is about.

---

I'm about 99% sure that he said he didn't own a desert in the video Raphael did with him talking about the desert and lethal combos. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike41793

7th snake down in the column on the right is a desert ghost. I suggest you check your facts before you make such accusations.

http://newenglandreptile.com/nerd/in...ollection.html

---

A desert ghost is NOT a desert. Two completely different morphs. Thanks for the help though. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

Moronic rumor. Well according to Kevin himself, if you incubate spider eggs between 87.1 and 87.9 they have no wobble. Have you ever heard Kevin say that or seen him post it anywhere? I haven't and I cruise the forums just as much as the next person. Kevin openly admits to keeping information from people in his videos. The "old way" things were done. So I don't feel a need to indulge myself further. Kevin is all the proof I need.... HE OPENLY ADMITS IT!

---

"According to Kevin..." But you haven't heard him say it??? He "openly admits it"...but you haven't heard him say it? Or seen it anywhere?

If it's THAT easy to prevent the spider wobble then why hasn't it been eradicated for good?

Have you ever met Kevin and seen him with his animals? He may not be much of a people person...but that man LOVES his animals. He may "keep secrets" about which genes make which pretty morph combos, but I have NO doubt that if there were some "special formula" for eliminating the spider issues and improving the quality of life of the THOUSANDS of spiders and spider combos waiting to be hatched, he would have told the world. OR...even if he were in it for the money...he would then be cranking out 100% wobble free spiders and selling them for even more money. Haven't seen THAT claim from him either. :rolleyes:

Again I say it...SHOW YOUR EVIDENCE that he's made such claims. Otherwise it IS nothing more than rumormill grist. And as someone who cruises the internet for information as much as you do, surely you realize that THIS sort of crap is exactly how those rumors gain ground? :irkd:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

"According to Kevin..." But you haven't heard him say it??? He "openly admits it"...but you haven't heard him say it? Or seen it anywhere?

If it's THAT easy to prevent the spider wobble then why hasn't it been eradicated for good?

Have you ever met Kevin and seen him with his animals? He may not be much of a people person...but that man LOVES his animals. He may "keep secrets" about which genes make which pretty morph combos, but I have NO doubt that if there were some "special formula" for eliminating the spider issues and improving the quality of life of the THOUSANDS of spiders and spider combos waiting to be hatched, he would have told the world. OR...even if he were in it for the money...he would then be cranking out 100% wobble free spiders and selling them for even more money. Haven't seen THAT claim from him either. :rolleyes:

Again I say it...SHOW YOUR EVIDENCE that he's made such claims. Otherwise it IS nothing more than rumormill grist. And as someone who cruises the internet for information as much as you do, surely you realize that THIS sort of crap is exactly how those rumors gain ground? :irkd:

---

I'm really not trying to stir the pot. I just hate to see people quoting Kevin just because he has thousands of snakes. I'm sure many of these people quoting him have never met him either. And yes I have seen Kevin with his animals, and he is amazing with them. I think he deserves a certain amount of respect for what he's capable of doing with an animal. I don't agree with his practices per say when it comes to information. But I know for a fact that he made this statement. I have no doubt that it's true either considering he's been working with the gene for almost 20 years. Maybe it wasn't my place to call that out.

Half the people commenting don't even own a desert. If you wanna have a dog in the race, then own one, breed it, prove it yourself, and then go "HAHAHAHA!". Every post about a desert is PURE speculation, unless it's actual desert owners talking about their trial and error. But in general it's not, it's a bunch of people wishing they could own a desert but won't because they think females won't produce. There has been one smart thing said in this post and that's that desert males prices should stay high for a long time since as of right now they are the only reproducers of the gene. The gene is far from dead, matter of fact this may just be what keeps a co-dom gene from dying so fast.

To answer your questions. Nope, I didn't hear it come out of his mouth, but the man who did I would trust with my child. So I believe everything he says. He has no reason to make up that rumor or lie about it. Matter of fact the reason he told me is because I'm huge on spotnoses and he didn't want me to produce powerballs with wobbles. Not to mention that Kevin admits to keeping information from the masses, he calls it keeping things the "old" way. Take it for what it's worth. I know from now on I'll incubate all my eggs between those temps just to prevent any possible side affects (kinks, wobble, etc).

It's pretty idiotic to think that the spider wobble would be eradicated with that information. There are THOUSANDS of spiders out there. Not every spider is owned by Kevin. And does it surprise you that it hasn't, being this probably the first time you've heard this? When the information isn't public knowledge... then that pretty much answers your question.