Toffee not a Banana...Mistaken Identity Oops!

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to clear up some confusion caused by our last post tilted "Our latest addition". The photo within that post and this post is of our male Toffee holdback that we are adding into our breeding group not a Banana. It still amazes us how similar these two morphs look as babies. In fact I recall two years ago at Tinley Park Pete Kahl displayed a baby Candy and baby Banana together and most couldn't tell them apart. I would imagine someone like Brock Wagner who's produced tons of Banana's would be able to identify the slight nuances between the two morphs. However as they mature they become quite different. The Toffee develops and holds opulent hues as an adult, which you can see in Paul Angelides previous post titled "Toffee" while the Banana fades out and develops a mite pattern. Obviously snakes are adults for a heck of allot longer than they are babies so we’re thrilled that the Toffee has such an amazing adult appearance.

As we all know they are very different genetically. The Toffee is recessive but on top of that it is compatible with normal Albinos and produces a cool new morph that’s been coined the Toffino. The Banana is also compatible but unfortunately only with normals, actually let me re-phrase that. Bananas are co-dominant. However there are allot more normals in captivity than there are Albinos and Het Albinos, which is good for those that can’t afford their $50,000(for a male) price tag right now. But I guess that price is justified because the Banana was only imported several years ago, is being bred all around the world and is so rare. Right?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so no one can make a claim that one looks better than the other but I think we can all agree that at this age they are almost identical considering I had to clarify what I had posted. Again I am sorry for the confusion and all the best. I have added a couple of photos of this Toffee male for you to check out.

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/k...back_male2.jpg

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/k...resizecopy.jpg

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/k...resizecopy.jpg

Best regards,

Craig Stewart
The Urban Reptile
Tel: 905 264-5557
www.theurbanreptile.com

banna ball pythons are going for 16k in the uk ;) if you can get the cities permitts would save alot of money.....either way stunning toffee :P

Beautiful snake! Seems to be glowing.

So pretty... I can't wait until I can afford to start a Toffee project.

Thanks. How much do Toffees go for in general?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Urban Python

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to clear up some confusion caused by our last post tilted "Our latest addition". The photo within that post and this post is of our male Toffee holdback that we are adding into our breeding group not a Banana. It still amazes us how similar these two morphs look as babies. In fact I recall two years ago at Tinley Park Pete Kahl displayed a baby Candy and baby Banana together and most couldn't tell them apart. I would imagine someone like Brock Wagner who's produced tons of Banana's would be able to identify the slight nuances between the two morphs. However as they mature they become quite different. The Toffee develops and holds opulent hues as an adult, which you can see in Paul Angelides previous post titled "Toffee" while the Banana fades out and develops a mite pattern. Obviously snakes are adults for a heck of allot longer than they are babies so we’re thrilled that the Toffee has such an amazing adult appearance.

As we all know they are very different genetically. The Toffee is recessive but on top of that it is compatible with normal Albinos and produces a cool new morph that’s been coined the Toffino. The Banana is also compatible but unfortunately only with normals, actually let me re-phrase that. Bananas are co-dominant. However there are allot more normals in captivity than there are Albinos and Het Albinos, which is good for those that can’t afford their $50,000(for a male) price tag right now. But I guess that price is justified because the Banana was only imported several years ago, is being bred all around the world and is so rare. Right?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so no one can make a claim that one looks better than the other but I think we can all agree that at this age they are almost identical considering I had to clarify what I had posted. Again I am sorry for the confusion and all the best. I have added a couple of photos of this Toffee male for you to check out.

http/i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk351/Craig_Stewart/banana_hold-back_male2.jpg

http/i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk351/Craig_Stewart/banana_male_holdback3_resizecopy.jpg

http/i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk351/Craig_Stewart/banana_male_holdback_resizecopy.jpg

Best regards,

Craig Stewart
The Urban Reptile
Tel: 905 264-5557
www.theurbanreptile.com

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Why did you name the images as a Banana male holdback? :confused:

Something funny is going on here

This will not have a good outcome :colbert:

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Originally Posted by Serpents_Den

Why did you name the images as a Banana male holdback? :confused:

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Just another attempt to mislead people....very petty.

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

Just another attempt to mislead people....very petty.

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I was reading another forum and Craig sure did lose any credibility he may have had...

Just to throw this out there. Wonder what a banana toffee would look like. Lol

I'm lost...

I read the thread here:

http://www.captivebredreptileforums....tity-oops.html

Can someone explain to me what's going on here and what they are talking about? I'm new to the whole world of BP's and crazy high end expen$$$$ive morphs...

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=33245

:colbert:

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=33245

:colbert:

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Guess I need a timeline in laymans terms to understand what all has panned out and has come to this final conclusion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rawbbeh

I'm lost...

I read the thread here:

http://www.captivebredreptileforums....tity-oops.html

Can someone explain to me what's going on here and what they are talking about? I'm new to the whole world of BP's and crazy high end expen$$$$ive morphs...

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From how I understand it, Craig from Urban Reptiles was the first person to own the Toffee, which was an import. He bred it and sold off several "het Toffee" snakes to other people.

He knew that the Toffee was compatible with the Albino gene, and did not share this information with the people who were buying the "het Toffee" snakes from him.

People discovered his deception and were very unhappy. They had spent tens of thousands of dollars on animals that were not pure Toffee, or even pure Toffee hets.

Now these other breeders that bought animals from Craig at Urban Reptiles might sell snakes that they absolutely believe are het for Toffee, but are actually het for Albino. Then they will have very unhappy customers, and it will damage their own reputations.

There does not seem to be any logic as to why Craig would post pictures of Toffee snakes and name them as "Bananas" in the file name. People have speculated that because he destroyed his own reputation due to the "Toffino" incident, he is trying to do harm to the Banana project out of spite.

The reason he would do this is because Bananas and Toffees are very similar looking animals, but because he was the original owner of the imported Toffee, he appears to have had negative feelings towards the owners of the Banana project.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

From how I understand it, Craig from Urban Reptiles was the first person to own the Toffee, which was an import. He bred it and sold off several "het Toffee" snakes to other people.

He knew that the Toffee was compatible with the Albino gene, and did not share this information with the people who were buying the "het Toffee" snakes from him.

People discovered his deception and were very unhappy. They had spent tens of thousands of dollars on animals that were not pure Toffee, or even pure Toffee hets.

Now these other breeders that bought animals from Craig at Urban Reptiles might sell snakes that they absolutely believe are het for Toffee, but are actually het for Albino. Then they will have very unhappy customers, and it will damage their own reputations.

There does not seem to be any logic as to why Craig would post pictures of Toffee snakes and name them as "Bananas" in the file name. People have speculated that because he destroyed his own reputation due to the "Toffino" incident, he is trying to do harm to the Banana project out of spite.

The reason he would do this is because Bananas and Toffees are very similar looking animals, but because he was the original owner of the imported Toffee, he appears to have had negative feelings towards the owners of the Banana project.

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That pretty much sums it up, but it must be added that some of the bigger players in the banana project also invested heavily in the Toffee project and were very vocal about their displeasure at Craig for knowingly witholding the albino compatibility from them while still taking 10's of thousands of dollars.

So now that he has tainted his own project because of his lack of ethics he is now trying to sling mud on other peoples projects.

wow so harsh! geez doesnt anyone think it could have been a mistake?? unless there is a confession i wouldnt tell the world your petty assumptions

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Originally Posted by python_addict

wow so harsh! geez doesnt anyone think it could have been a mistake?? unless there is a confession i wouldnt tell the world your petty assumptions

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ACTUALLY, these are not petty assumptions. This is just fact of what happened. :P

was there a confession does anyone actually have hard evidence of this? yeah I still think it could have been an honest mistake seriously this kind of ticks me off I have to stay off this thread wait till someone else on here screws up not knowing something is compatible with another recessive they are hidden genes he cant look at it and tell exactly what is in it wow yeah I really have to stay off here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by python_addict

was there a confession does anyone actually have hard evidence of this? yeah I still think it could have been an honest mistake seriously this kind of ticks me off I have to stay off this thread wait till someone else on here screws up not knowing something is compatible with another recessive they are hidden genes he cant look at it and tell exactly what is in it wow yeah I really have to stay off here

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He publicly admitted that he was aware of the compatibility a full year before it was made public.

In that year he was selling snakes to people and not making them aware of the fact.

so now what is he gonna be criticized forever?

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Originally Posted by python_addict

so now what is he gonna be criticized forever?

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Did You read the OP? He posted pics of a toffee labeled as a banana and then tried slinging dirt on the banana project. All of these posts are in response to HIS post. Nobody just dredged up old stuff to gripe about.

Make sure you know what you're talking about before you jump in and try to defend ;)

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Originally Posted by python_addict

wow so harsh! geez doesnt anyone think it could have been a mistake?? unless there is a confession i wouldnt tell the world your petty assumptions

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My entire post was based on the extensive reading I've done. I don't know him personally, I've never interacted with him, and am not judging him or slinging mud. I simply summarized what I had learned about the situation so that other people could understand without having to do the amount of reading I did.

If it seems harsh, it's because he did some pretty bad things. It's hard to say "Well he ripped off a bunch of people and lied to his customers" and make it sound flattering.

Hey Guys,

I first want to start by saying sorry. Clearly my post was offensive, self serving and in poor judgement. My intention was to support a project that I am very, very passionate about and obviously I went too far. Forums are available to us all to share knowledge and experiences not to self promote and abuse, which I am gulity of and for that I am very sorry.

My post came across spitful, which has been fuelled by all the rumors and untruths about me and my company. I should have addressed them back when they first came to light but I choose to ignore them assuming our impeccable track record for nearly a decade would defend itself. Clearly that was not enough based on the posts I have seen within this thread. Ball Pythons make up a small component of our business. We sell a wide selection of popular reptiles to customers all over the world and have always strived for excellence and honesty regardless of the rumors. That is the truth! We have a long track record of providing premium quality reptiles and serving our customers with honesty and integrity and proof of that comes from the hundreds upon hundreds of happy satisfied customers worldwide.

We sold reptiles long before the Toffee project came along and they always proved out to be exactly what we guaranteed and they will always continue to do so. My point is we have a track record of being honest and I have worked long and hard to maintain that and it's not fair that someone can post a rumor and all that hard work and history is thrown out the window. That simply is not right. We have never and I mean never sold an animal that was not what we guaranteed. We have a long track record of honesty and that should speak louder than random posts from people that don't know me, have never spoken to me or dealt with me.

I am guilty of a bad self serving offensive post and I sincerely apologize for that. This is my business, my livelihood but most importantly it is my passion. I take this very seriously and to see my name and companies reputation come under fire after working nearly a decade with an impeccable reputation is not right. I let my passion and ego get the best of me and I have promissed myself as well as my staff that I'll stay clear of the forums from now on.

Thank you for reading this long winded appeal for forgiveness.

Sincerely,

Craig Stewart
The Urban Reptile
Tel: 905 264-5557
www.theurbanreptile.com

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Originally Posted by The Urban Python

My point is we have a track record of being honest and I have worked long and hard to maintain that and it's not fair that someone can post a rumor and all that hard work and history is thrown out the window. That simply is not right. We have never and I mean never sold an animal that was not what we guaranteed. We have a long track record of honesty and that should speak louder than random posts from people that don't know me, have never spoken to me or dealt with me.

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I have seen many posts by people who DO know you and HAVE dealt with you, so I do not believe these are just "random posts by people who don't know you."

I'm not personally invested in the Toffee project, and it's well out of my price range for now, so I'm just responding out of curiosity.

I am interested to know whether you plan on addressing the issue with you selling people Toffee/Hets and not telling them they are compatible with Albinos? That just doesn't seem like an honest thing to do, or like an accurate representation of the animals.

I saw on another forum that you said you did not intend to discuss this on public forums any longer, but I am hopeful you will reply. In my opinion, the best way to clear your name would be to discuss these "rumors" in public rather than discussing them privately. :gj: