baby spider ball keeps shaking its head this normall?

hey all

i have a 6 week old female spider ball python
she keeps shaking her head is this normall with baby`s??

any help will be gratefull

jay

It's normal with the spider morph. The genetics that create the spider look also have some kind of influence with the nervous system. No one is exactly sure what the link is. It varies a lot between specimens....some show little-to-no outward signs...some spin their whole bodies with no ability to control it. Most fall somewhere between those two extremes. It can get better or worse as they mature. Some grow out of it...some get worse. Stress can make it more noticeable.

Its not normal. Its a neurological disorder commonly passed down with spiders and any morph with spiders in them. It is something that will generally stay with the animal. Neuro problems dont go away. They can supress over time but also can get alot worse. I wouldnt breed the animal.

It's common with the spiders and anything with the spider gene. I had a little female spider and she gets a little wobble when she eats. Some wobbles are worse than others, some get better or get worse as the animal grows up. There's still a lot to learn about it, but IMO as long as she eats and thrives it shouldn't be an issue at all.

The "wobble",it comes with the spider..............nothing to really worry about though if you feed live you want to keep a closer eye on her because they can miss the strike all together and then the rat can bite back.
Mine only really shows his wobble during feeding time.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Its not normal. Its a neurological disorder commonly passed down with spiders and any morph with spiders in them. It is something that will generally stay with the animal. Neuro problems dont go away. They can supress over time but also can get alot worse. I wouldnt breed the animal.

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I see from the snakes in your list that you have spiders in your collection. Are you not planning on breeding any of them?

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Its not normal. Its a neurological disorder commonly passed down with spiders and any morph with spiders in them. It is something that will generally stay with the animal. Neuro problems dont go away. They can supress over time but also can get alot worse. I wouldnt breed the animal.

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It's been shown that the "wobble" isn't necessarily genetic. Of course, all spider morphs have it, but the severity isn't inheritable. Really bad wobblers can throw out babies that don't wobble noticeably.

I dont breed wobblers. If more people did selective breeding to try and out breed the flaw then we wouldnt have the issue as bad as we do today. The wobble has been passed down through mass breeding and inbreeding of animals with it therefore it got worse. I dont breed any spider cross that has wobbles and i dont throw wobblers either. You can outbreed the problem with sucess. Can you still get wobblers ? Yes there is still the risk but your odds deminish extensively when you breed only healthy non neuro animals.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I wouldnt breed the animal.

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There has been not a single bit of evidence to support the idea that low-wobble spiders are genetically superior to high-wobble spiders. If you wouldn't breed a spider with an obvious wobble, then realistically you wouldn't want to be breeding any spiders at all.

Low wobble is a wobble so off course your right. But no wobble is no wobble. I can see i will be public enemy once again on this thread. People, stop googlin and reading and get your hands dirty and get hands on experience. Or am i just one lucky son of a gun that doesnt pass wobblers? Hmmmmm i must be doing something right

Spiders do tend to do that. :) Also, you would think that since, most (if not all) spiders came from a common ancestor, being outbred for years would correct the wobble, I think it's pretty safe to say it's genetically related to the spider gene, and won't be bred out over time. It just has varying degrees of wobbles.

It would have been bred out if people stopped breeding the wobblers but they didnt and dont. If this was dog breeding it would be alot different. People would have stopped the problem. But this is a money driven industry and people loose sight of breeding and producing quality animals instead they breed for quantity first and quality second. Im sure im going to get totally slammed on this next comment but i would rather put a snake that has a bad wobble in the freezer then sell it to one of my customers. You will not see any wobblers on my table at a show

I mean to say that it varies, so a low wobble spider could throw a high wobble spider and vice versa. I think It's great that people try to out breed the wobble, I just don't think that it could be eliminated. The only reason a wobbly spider would have to be put down imo, is if it's quality of life was affected. ie couldn't eat by itself.

At this point i agree it wont be totally eliminated. Nor will alot of people stop breeding them simply because noone is gonna cut themselves from making money. Me personally, i dont breed them. Im not telling anyone how to live their life im just giving my oppinion but on this site i tend to feel like the new kid at school trying to fit in lol. For some reason everytime i post a comment on here its the same group of people that want to argue with me with their google based knowledge. The fact is i was working with spiders from the very beginning, when the first spiders were produced. I bought my first spider male for 14k plus some wholesale stuff. I know a little bit about what im talking about. But for some reason i still get slammed or accused of acting like im better then someone cause of my experience. That is not the fact. I am simply trying to help someone who asked for it or responding to a post based on experience not google.

Thing is, a "no" wobble Spider can throw out a high or low wobble. I have seen it, it is a case by case thing. I don't think it can be bred out IMO.

I agree. A no wobbler can throw wobbles. Just like it doesnt matter if you have a low white or high white pied. My only point is i dont breed wobblers and i havent seen any wobbler hatchlings in a while now im also using the spider stuff in alot of combos so im not breeding plain spiders. Maybe this has something to do with odds

Does anybody think the neurological issue is what is preventing super spiders?

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I dont breed wobblers. If more people did selective breeding to try and out breed the flaw then we wouldnt have the issue as bad as we do today. The wobble has been passed down through mass breeding and inbreeding of animals with it therefore it got worse. I dont breed any spider cross that has wobbles and i dont throw wobblers either. You can outbreed the problem with sucess. Can you still get wobblers ? Yes there is still the risk but your odds deminish extensively when you breed only healthy non neuro animals.

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It's pretty inaccurate inbreeding has nothing to do with it, Spiders are one of the most out bred morph out there.

It is pretty well accepted that all spiders wobble to a degree, in some cases it is almost invisible making people think they do not have a wobbler in some other cases it is very extreme and of course you have everything in between.

It is also pretty well accepted that an extreme wobbler can produce an almost non wobbler and vice versa.

A wobbler can outgrow it to a degree as well, just like an almost non wobbler can become a train wreck as it gets holder, is submitted to stress, extreme temps etc.

There are many threads about this it's been said times and times again.

Of course sometimes one needs to know what to look for and when.

Spiders are not for everyone that's for sure people either want to work with them or not but as far as breeding it out of spider it will not happen and I think it is hypocrite for someone who owns and breed spiders to tell someone else not too. :rolleyes:

Man i swear if you are not text book literal around here you dont stand a chance. I wasnt telling them not to breed spiders. I said not to breed THAT spider. I will always breed the spider gene as long as there is a market for it. But like i said I DONT BREED WOBBLERS lol.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

It's pretty inaccurate inbreeding has nothing to do with it, Spiders are one of the most out bred morph out there.

It is pretty well accepted that all spiders wobble to a degree, in some cases it is almost invisible making people think they do not have a wobbler in some other cases it is very extreme and of course you have everything in between.

It is also pretty well accepted that an extreme wobbler can produce an almost non wobbler and vice versa.

A wobbler can outgrow it to a degree as well, just like an almost non wobbler can become a train wreck as it gets holder, is submitted to stress, extreme temps etc.

There are many threads about this it's been said times and times again.

Of course sometimes one needs to know what to look for and when.

Spiders are not for everyone that's for sure people either want to work with them or not but as far as breeding it out of spider it will not happen and I think it is hypocrite for someone who owns and breed spiders to tell someone else not too. :rolleyes:

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I agree, although I certainly see where snakelab is coming from on this issue. I will refrain from getting too political on this, though.

My opinion: All spiders wobble, end of story, no matter how subtle it may be. I don't see an issue with the wobble as long as they are healthy and have a good quality of life. It took me a while to get used to it, I'll admit it, but we have had nothing but good luck with all of our spiders, from those with only a tiny quirk all the way up to those that corkscrew like they have advanced IBD.

Sorry but breeding a insnae wobbler can produce ones with very slight wobble and vice versa.

With producing over 20 spiders in last 3 years ive seen my share. My male spider and bee barely do anything. But their offspring were the same or were crazy.

Its not genetic so to say your breeding a non wobbler, all the babies will be non wobblers is Way off.

I didnt say if you breed a no wobbler you wont get wobblers. Do you guys read what i write or do you guys just see my name and start going?. What i said is the spider gene animals i work with do not wobble and i dont wobbler babies. I had 9 clutches last year of spider gene animals. Out of about 30 to 35 babies not one wobbler. So am i doing something write, am i proving all the skeptics wrong? Am i just plain lucky? Until any one of you can prove to me its genetic or not with scientific data all your arguments are without merit just mere speculation.

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Do you guys read what i write or do you guys just see my name and start going?

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Paranoid much :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Until any one of you can prove to me its genetic or not with scientific data all your arguments are without merit just mere speculation.

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So where are YOUR scientific data? Less me guess you have known therefore just speculation on your part which means end of the discussion here and we will agree to disagree/.............funny thing is that MANY spider breeders will disagree with you as well. :rolleyes:

the only time i see my spider wobble a little bit is when she is on her branch extending her neck/head flickering her tounge, she is a little over 3 months old i hope her wobble doesnt get any worse

she doesn't wobble when feeding she just sits there perfectly still and i move the rat in front of her and wham... she's a pig:)

the spider female i had had pretty much no wobble,the bumblebee i had wobbled while feeding,my killerbee has a very noticeable wobble, my bumblebee mojave has such a tiny wobble its hard to notice. once they get up to size ill get an idea of what kinda babies they will throw.

And many will agree as well so i will play the odds. Im not the one preaching that its proven they all have wobbles and they will always pass wobbles. My data rests on years of experience. Therefore the system i have works. Thats all the data i need. It takes more then a couple years and google to figure it out. Let me ask you this. Are you fine with breeding an animal that has an apparent health issue and producing babies that could have it as well and then fine with selling those animals to people? If you answer yes then that proves my point about breeding quantity over quality. I have had wobbles in the past and some severe. Those severe cases go to the freezer. But since ive been so selective with what i breed and how i breed i havent had issues. Im not about to sell someone a jacked up animal. It makes you look bad and then the fauna snipers will rip you apart. Its all about quality in my book

i dont care about the he say she say but if you have no wobbles in your collection and you throw no wobble babies thats truly awesome and my hats off to you.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

And many will agree as well so i will play the odds. Im not the one preaching that its proven they all have wobbles and they will always pass wobbles. My data rests on years of experience. Therefore the system i have works. Thats all the data i need. It takes more then a couple years and google to figure it out. Let me ask you this. Are you fine with breeding an animal that has an apparent health issue and producing babies that could have it as well and then fine with selling those animals to people? If you answer yes then that proves my point about breeding quantity over quality. I have had wobbles in the past and some severe. Those severe cases go to the freezer. But since ive been so selective with what i breed and how i breed i havent had issues. Im not about to sell someone a jacked up animal. It makes you look bad and then the fauna snipers will rip you apart. Its all about quality in my book

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But nobody is agreeing with you.

Do you really think you're the only person who has tried to breed out the wobble? From what I've seen you say you've been around for 10 something years. That sounds like a long time, but that's not so much when you're talking about generations of ball pythons.

There are many other breeders out there who value quality just as much as you do. If the wobble could be bred out of the spider gene, wouldn't it have been shared within the community by other breeders who have been around just as long as you have (or longer)?

Surely if you have been producing spiders without wobbles for some time, word would have gotten around. I'm assuming you haven't been keeping every single one of the 30+ babies you are hatching out.

The spider wobble is such a well known characteristic of the gene that it would be big news if it could be selectively bred out. Nobody has come forward with records, evidence, or anything that could be used to prove this. Instead the community is constantly reinforcing the idea that every spider morph has some degree of wobble.

To be perfectly frank, not joking or being a troll, if you really produce spiders that are wobble free I would be interested in purchasing one from you. I love spiders, and I'm sure many other spider lovers would be interested in having an animal they could use to improve their own stock.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

And many will agree as well so i will play the odds. Im not the one preaching that its proven they all have wobbles and they will always pass wobbles. My data rests on years of experience. Therefore the system i have works. Thats all the data i need. It takes more then a couple years and google to figure it out. Let me ask you this. Are you fine with breeding an animal that has an apparent health issue and producing babies that could have it as well and then fine with selling those animals to people? If you answer yes then that proves my point about breeding quantity over quality. I have had wobbles in the past and some severe. Those severe cases go to the freezer. But since ive been so selective with what i breed and how i breed i havent had issues. Im not about to sell someone a jacked up animal. It makes you look bad and then the fauna snipers will rip you apart. Its all about quality in my book

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Thing is the wobble isnt a health issue. They live,eat and have good lives. Whos to say them wobbling all over is uncomfortable to them. No one knows what the hell its doing to them. If their eating,pooping, shedding find who are we to play god and kill em cause you dont want a wobbler. If i had a train wreck id never freeze it, Id keep it as a pet.

And yes I will continue to breed spiders, as there and AWESOME morph and wouldnt be where we are today in this industry without them, along with other base morphs.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

And many will agree as well so i will play the odds. Im not the one preaching that its proven they all have wobbles and they will always pass wobbles. My data rests on years of experience. Therefore the system i have works. Thats all the data i need. It takes more then a couple years and google to figure it out. Let me ask you this. Are you fine with breeding an animal that has an apparent health issue and producing babies that could have it as well and then fine with selling those animals to people? If you answer yes then that proves my point about breeding quantity over quality. I have had wobbles in the past and some severe. Those severe cases go to the freezer. But since ive been so selective with what i breed and how i breed i havent had issues. Im not about to sell someone a jacked up animal. It makes you look bad and then the fauna snipers will rip you apart. Its all about quality in my book

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And that is fine if that is what works for you, stick to it. More power to ya.

However in 99% of the cases I wouldn't really consider the wobble a health issue. A quirk maybe, but I haven't had any health issues with any of our spiders that was linked to their wobble. Ever notice how people brag about how their spiders are their best eaters and best breeders? Well I will certainly back those people up because our spiders are hands down our best eaters and breeders too.

So what you are saying is that if it has a bad wobble you automatically put it down? Is this anything like yanking teeth out of a rats mouth before feeding it to a snake so it can't bite back? If so I am NOT down with that at all.

Me personally, I don't give a crap what those uptight, holier than thou art jerks at Fauna think. I've met quite a few in person and let me tell you, I really wished I hadn't met most of them. I haven't used Fauna in a good year because of the people there.

When i said others agree i was responding to the comment that some breeders would dissagree with me and simply was saying there are others that do agree with me. I wasnt talking about the few on here that seem to be the same ones that argue every point i make on other threads as well as this one. Look in a nutshell i take my breeding very seriouslly and i believe strongly about putting the best animals i can out on my tables and on the internet market. This is a buisness for me. I dont look at it any other way. Therefore if i want to keep breeding high end animals as well as regular everday animals i owe it to myself and my customers to put out a good product. Im not saying im 100 % perfect with my system with the spider gene, but i am saying that since i have been so selective with what i work with i produce and sell wobble free spider gene animals. If i do produce a wobbler you wont see it up for sale. I totally stopped doing caramel stuff because of the tail kinkers. I also had a smokin deal fall in my lap last week of 4 adult 2000 gram spider females and 2 bee adult females for wholesale prices because they all had signs of wobbles. Well let me be clear there was one bee that looked clean but it was a package deal. I passed and the animals were priced at about 400 bucks a female give or take. So i do care deeply about the animals i work with.

@ ak. I do agree with you about the spider gene animals being great breeders and feeders. Some of the best. I also believe they are a strong gene animal and one that is just as important as any top morph. Actually i think the spider and the pastel are the most important cause anything you put those to are awesome. As far as the rats and teeth are concerned. I only do that to jumbos that i feed my giant saharan ball girls to. Those females are close to and over 5000 grams and need to eat big jumbos. I feed live and i knock the rats out first. Only reason i yank the teeth after knockin em out is because they can still bite after being knocked out. Its not the easiest thing to knock a jumbo out. Have you ever tried? Lol its not easy. And a bite from a jumbo can do crazy damage. I hope your not implying that would be cruelty considering its being fed to a snake to begin with. This is not a peta run site. And i dont care for fauna either but alot of snake customers do and the last thing i need is to have people starting a witch hunt because they got a snake with problems frome me.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

@ ak. I do agree with you about the spider gene animals being great breeders and feeders. Some of the best. I also believe they are a strong gene animal and one that is just as important as any top morph. Actually i think the spider and the pastel are the most important cause anything you put those to are awesome. As far as the rats and teeth are concerned. I only do that to jumbos that i feed my giant saharan ball girls to. Those females are close to and over 5000 grams and need to eat big jumbos. I feed live and i knock the rats out first. Only reason i yank the teeth after knockin em out is because they can still bite after being knocked out. Its not the easiest thing to knock a jumbo out. Have you ever tried? Lol its not easy. And a bite from a jumbo can do crazy damage. I hope your not implying that would be cruelty considering its being fed to a snake to begin with. This is not a peta run site. And i dont care for fauna either but alot of snake customers do and the last thing i need is to have people starting a witch hunt because they got a snake with problems frome me.

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i dont see a problem with what you do to the jumbo rats as far as knocking them out and pulling their teeth,(not saying i would pull teeth thats a little too hardcore for me, however i have knocked rats out before just not jumbos)if i had a 5000+ gram female i would try feeding f/t or pre killed(just swing them a little harder when knocking them out) but if she wont eat f/t or pre killed then i would probably do the same thing cause as you said a rat bite from a jumbo would be devastating to a snake:O. i would like to know your website though i dont see a link to it at the bottom of your posts:D

Severe cases yes. Why would i let an animal suffer. If the animal is so neuro that it cant eat or cant even stay upright what kind of quality of life is that? I owe it to the animals i love so much not to have them suffer.

Lets define what the wobble is............. a lot of people start thinking of the cork screw body flailing every where.
I watched a u-tube video and did some research to find things to look for so I wouldnt get one of these "bad" snakes. Then I realized something, "It Doesnt Matter"!!!!!!! We looked at probably 50 to 100 spiders before we got our little dude. We tried to find one that did show any signs with no luck. Them my wife found this guy and wanted him so I said what the hell. he only TWO times he shows any neurological disorder is during feeding and when inverted. He will actually try to crawl on his back for a couple of seconds before righting himself.
NOW, is it worth trying to learn from u-tube?? Most of the time I would say NO BUT this time it was. I have a buddy who swore his male did, never has, and never will wobble. You should have seen the look on his face and I cant type the words that came out of his mouth after I flipped that snake:rofl::rofl::rofl: His was worse than mine!!!! It takes almost 30 seconds before he rights himself EVERY TIME!!!!:D:D
I will say for the spiders though, (I know we all think and say snakes dont have emotion) they are some of the most loving snakes I have held. I have yet to have a spider strike at me, even hatchlings.

Now I am going to try to embed the two that stuck in my head the most:oops:..............only tonight did I realize they are from one of our very own:bow::bow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLICLSTrcA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs0wnp7Y6WU&feature=related

BTW.........................LOVE THE SPIDER IN PART 2:bow::bow::bow::bow:

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Severe cases yes. Why would i let an animal suffer. If the animal is so neuro that it cant eat or cant even stay upright what kind of quality of life is that? I owe it to the animals i love so much not to have them suffer.

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Thing is, Ive NEVER heard this happening in spiders given their tract for being great feeders. I know quite a lot of people working with spider gene hatching hundreds of spider combos, and they never had to put a spider down cause it was a bad wobbler or wouldn't eat.

@rich. I have had to put 2 spiders down, 1 bee , and 6 caramels, in my life. The bee and the spiders were really bad. They were produced 2 years apart from eachother from the same male to different females. I sold the male off and didnt have the issue again. The caramels were over a 5 year period and it was the result of that horrible tail kink issue

Snake lab, I'm still reading the last couple of pages on this. You keep saying that people are going to slam you, or say that you think you are better.

I don't think that's quite true, however, I can see where some would misinterpret the way you're communicating. Perhaps instead of saying that everyone is wrong, try to reinforce that you, in your situation, are right. Such as explaining to us your experiences through breeding. Being one person against many isn't easy, particularly if you just simply tell them that they are wrong. Nobody likes being told that.

So in a nutshell, don't slam them, and they won't slam you.

:gj:

My spider looks like a yo yo when he eats. That's when he wobbles. Other than that, he's awesome.

my spider male will show zero signs of wobble for weeks and then he will have what I call a spin cycle day lol. I get the snakes that have it or don't but i just can't understand mine

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Those severe cases go to the freezer

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I'm not down with that at all, so you put down snakes that were never given a chance? They still could have been fantastic breeders. You say you love the animals but it is strictly business to you? Alot of times those 2 things don't mesh. I consider breeding and selling them as a hobby still to this day because I simply love the animals, I could spend all day with my snakes and do sometimes when i'm not working or training. To clarify, to breeders atleast in my experience have never really considered it as strictly business. And in alot of cases you can sense their love of the snakes when they talk and in their messages here.

I have had my 2009 male now for 5 1/2 months never seen any signs out of him, I have flipped him he turns himself fine but I do not know he could have had it when he was younger. I am gonna attempt to breed him this season if I have any spider babies I will give them all a chance.. I am not going against snake lab I am glad he is trying to fix the wobble. for those who say ALL Spiders have it I must say from my experience ( not to much but a bit) I would say that is false. Even when he was under the stress of a new home he never showed signs.

I absolutely love my spiders and combo spiders. Not a one has a noticeable wobble. I specifically look for non wobblers when I buy anything spider. Why? Not because I think they wont produce wobblers. Just because I think I have less of a chance. I've hatched out spider stuff 3 years in a row. And I haven't gotten a noticeable wobble yet. Thank God. Could it happen sure... I'm not one to argue about something I havent had many years of experience doing. So I will continue to only buy non wobblers and only breed non wobblers. I would agree that I specifically wont ever breed a noticeably wobbling animal. That's just my opinion. I wouldnt put a bad wobbler or wobbler down in general. That's just not the person I am. I beleive In giving everything a chance. If it can live a funtional life I thjnk it deserves the chance. I would rather Give the animal away for free as a strictly pet. I think doing that for the right person/home it could spark The addiction. We need more people in this hobby  Anyways just wanted to get my .03c in.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

I'm a person new to ball pythons (only having them for 2 years) and this forum. From what I have seen, I have to say the amount of jr high playground b/s that goes on this site is absolutely shocking.

This isn't the first posting i've seen where a person is gained up on by 3 or 4 different people. I myself have posted on this site and found myself being backed into a corner because people simply don't want to listen to want I'm saying, don't actually read what I say, or don't want to believe what I'm saying.

I'm not saying snake lab is right or wrong, or anyone else is right or wrong. I do however see where he is coming from when he says he is going to be attacked for his statements, you can see it coming as soon as you hit the submit reply button.

That being said this site is for education and sharing experiences, not to play a game of who's wrongest and who's rightest. This seems to happen far to often and from what i've seen it's always the same people. It makes people new to this site (including myself) think twice about whether or not they want to be apart of this community.

Further more I will always listen to the person that was the experience to back up what they are saying, and don't find a person repeating what they thought they read on google to be a truly reliable source. The main reason people ask questions on this site is to get peoples personally suggestions based on their personally experiences. If they wanted the google answer they'd search it on their own.

thanks every one really helps alot i am going to breed her later on but as a learning curve as i want to start breeding ball pythons so sounds like she will be perfect to learn with and keep the babies


thanks again

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Originally Posted by benwallage9

I'm a person new to ball pythons (only having them for 2 years) and this forum. From what I have seen, I have to say the amount of jr high playground b/s that goes on this site is absolutely shocking.

This isn't the first posting i've seen where a person is gained up on by 3 or 4 different people. I myself have posted on this site and found myself being backed into a corner because people simply don't want to listen to want I'm saying, don't actually read what I say, or don't want to believe what I'm saying.

I'm not saying snake lab is right or wrong, or anyone else is right or wrong. I do however see where he is coming from when he says he is going to be attacked for his statements, you can see it coming as soon as you hit the submit reply button.

That being said this site is for education and sharing experiences, not to play a game of who's wrongest and who's rightest. This seems to happen far to often and from what i've seen it's always the same people. It makes people new to this site (including myself) think twice about whether or not they want to be apart of this community.

Further more I will always listen to the person that was the experience to back up what they are saying, and don't find a person repeating what they thought they read on google to be a truly reliable source. The main reason people ask questions on this site is to get peoples personally suggestions based on their personally experiences. If they wanted the google answer they'd search it on their own.

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He is wrong about is putting down a wobbler. Even though he doesn't want to breed them, they would make a fantastic pet for someone. Hell, I would take them in simply because I love snakes.

Oh, and their is no Junior High BS going on. If that were the case, the MODs would put a stop to it. I think that it may come across like that to some when the majority disagrees, or some just don't have thick skin. Could be either or none.

Midsouth, are you kidding me right now? If i hadnt put those animals down then they would have suffered and died anyways. Get over it. I swear nomatter what i write on this site i get argued with and its always by the same core group of people. Its actually quite amusing cause i can see who knows what they are talking about and who hasnt got a clue. Look there are instances where as a breeder of any animal you have to think about the well being of the animal. I am not gonna let an animal suffer. I have vet who comes by every 2 weeks to by rodents for his animals and he helps me making those choices when they need to be made.

I have seen extreme wobblers make great pets, some of the worst I have seen are pets/ Mainly because nobody uses them for breeding. And how do you know they were suffering? Their is never any indication of that even in extreme cases, that they are in any pain. They function fine. And having putting down wobblers and "it's strctly a business" in the same paragraph seems to rub the wrong way. I am not trying to fuel the fire but I am only expressing my opinion.

And, I don't play the "I know more than you" game. And I think it is safe to say that not many members here do either.