Interesting Twist on Toffee Project

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TYXS...&feature=share'


Thoughts, comments? Makes more sense now when someone posted a picture of a baby toffee and we all swore it was an albino until it started to color up with age.

I wonder is really going on with this mutation?

There are already some threads running about this subject ;p

Greets,

Yaron

Where? I looked here in BP Morphs & Genetics where it made sense to me any news on that would be before I posted. I don't see anything in this forum.

Yeah there are quite a few threads about it. At least 1 other one here and some on KS, along with Bush League.

Trey

@ raber

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ino-Compatible!

;-]

Greets,

Yaron

VERY COOL!!! Looks like regular albino and toffee are allelic to each other! I'll be curious to see if one is dominant to the other or if you get an intermediate phenotype. I hope that toffee is dominant to albino - this way it'll be easier to start making toffees as albino is already very common out there.

Should also increase the value of albinos as well if they can be used to produce toffees.

I'm guessing they will be co-dominant (CORRECT usage of the term btw) to each other and produce an intermediate coloration, but if it turns out that one is dominant over the other then I'd have to guess that albino, as the more extreme reduction in melanin, would be dominant over toffee.

saw this yesterday. very interesting. im really looking foward to seeing what develops with this and how the snake in the video develops.

My theory is if they are alleic, then we will see 3 phenotypes. Albinos,Toffee,and Toffinos .

I think it will be interesting to see how/if you can tell the difference between Toffinos and Toffees. Like the Mystic/Mojos.

It may work something similar to the Paradigmn Boas?

Im not to sure how I feel about it being kept a secret for so long?

The complexity of these Ball Python genetics is enought o make you go :rolleye2:

Fun Stuff!

Pics of the Toffino here: http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...t=30005&page=5 Doesn't look like an intermediate form...

This is so cool. I want to see how it grows up. I wonder if it will age like a toffee...
Now I want to get a het. toffee male to pair with my albino.

Congratulations to Peter for producing the first Toffee X Albino (Toffino). I have to admit it comes as quite a surprise the idea of the two being compatible. Particularly with the difference in eye color between an adult Albino and an adult Toffee is so different. Having said that, the body color of the two could not be more different either. So clearly moving forward adult body and eye color will hold no merit in determining whether morphs are compatible or not. I'm just kicking myself that we didn't do the cross.

We had heard all the same rumors everyone else was hearing but couldn’t confirm anything. Finally they can all be put to rest and the project can move onto its next chapter, which I honestly believe is going to be very exciting to say the least. I have read both positive and negative feedback about this discovery and our position is an extremely positive one and I believe anyone involved in the project or considering getting into it should feel the exact same way. Why? For one very simple reason, you need a Toffee to make a Toffee. Sure pricing on females will need to be realigned going into this season but for any of you that are holding Albino combination males or like the idea of pure Toffees, females will continue to be in demand. Having said that the demand for Toffee males and 100% Het Toffee males will increase substantially. Firstly with this discovery investors will get a faster return on their investment like you would with a co-dom and the project is now more achievable for the budget minded investor. Most of us have Albinos or 100% Het Albinos in our collection so with this new discovery you’ll just need to get yourself a Toffee or a 100% Het Toffee male to start producing these visually amazing snakes.

To think the value of this project will crash with there being so many Albinos and Het Albinos out there is absurd. For comparison, there are allot more Bananas in collections than Toffees and I think we can all agree that there a couple more Normals in collections to breed Bananas to than there are Albinos and Het Albinos to breed Toffees to. In fact we strongly believe demand will increase even more now and how can’t it? The Toffee is still a very, very rare morph with only a handful in existence and with this new discovery investors can get a return on investment within a similar time frame as a co-dom. For us this discovery is huge and incredibly positive for the project. So for those of you that were thinking of selling your Albinos or Het Albinos think again and get into the Toffee project .

Oh and by-the-way check out these photos of a yearling Toffee that we just took. No matter how many times I photograph these guys I am still blown away by them. Also if anyone has any questions or comments for us please feel free to call us at 905 264-5557.
Best regards,

Craig Stewart
The Urban Reptile
Tel: 905 264-5557

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/k...fee_hdbk-2.jpg

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/k...fee_hdbk-3.jpg

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/k...fee_hdbk-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I'm guessing they will be co-dominant (CORRECT usage of the term btw) to each other and produce an intermediate coloration, but if it turns out that one is dominant over the other then I'd have to guess that albino, as the more extreme reduction in melanin, would be dominant over toffee.

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Actually, I'd guess it would be the other way around, toffee being dominant or an intermediate form. It's possible the mutation in "normal" albinos results in complete loss of function of a gene in the melanin pathway, whereas toffee bps maintain some or reduced function. In which case a toffino would have a single copy of complete loss of function, and a single copy with some function. Leading to an intermediate or dominant phenotype.

Regardless, its very cool to see!

While interesting this isn't the first time we have seen this in the Ball Python world. There are other traits that share a different Phenotype appearance but appear to fall on the same Locus. Examples of this are YB and spector, Leopard and pied, any of the BEL complex. This is however the first time two recessive traits have had such drastic phenotype differences and yet been compatible.

One thing I suspect is that Toffee's are simply a weaker form of Albino that as it ages gains the ability to produce melanin and thus getting the brownish tone to them. We see this already in some Hypos and axanthics where as they age the gene seems to weaken just enough to cause a slight change in appearance, or could hormonal production as they mature be responsible? I've seen spiders loose their color altogether and BEL get yellow stripes like an Ivory after hormones kick in.

Just food for thought.

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy. :(


dr del

Thanks for sharing:D

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

While interesting this isn't the first time we have seen this in the Ball Python world. There are other traits that share a different Phenotype appearance but appear to fall on the same Locus. Examples of this are YB and spector, Leopard and pied, any of the BEL complex. This is however the first time two recessive traits have had such drastic phenotype differences and yet been compatible.

One thing I suspect is that Toffee's are simply a weaker form of Albino that as it ages gains the ability to produce melanin and thus getting the brownish tone to them. We see this already in some Hypos and axanthics where as they age the gene seems to weaken just enough to cause a slight change in appearance, or could hormonal production as they mature be responsible? I've seen spiders loose their color altogether and BEL get yellow stripes like an Ivory after hormones kick in.

Just food for thought.

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If the alleles for leopard and pied fell on the same locus, it would be impossible to get leopard pieds. It is more likely that they are located in close proximity on the same chromosome if in fact the "all leopards are het pied" bit has some semblance of truth to it. However, I think this idea people have may only be due to the fact that leopard was tied into the pied project by Pete Kahl from the get-go. I would expect to start finding that the leopards that being produced from crossing the mutation into others aren't all het pied.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy. :(


dr del

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I agree that with this project it will be extremely important to be careful about the source of the toffees. I am really curious to see how the toffino looks next to a toffee of similar age though - especially at adult sizes. If they are impossible to distinguish, it could create some serious problems down the road with the less honest people trying to pass off toffinos as pure toffees. Not to mention that some are already wondering if het albinos had been passed off as het toffees in pairs with real het toffees. I don't think that would have happened yet because nobody knew what an adult toffino looked like (or to my knowledge even if they went through a colour change at all), and they would be only a couple years away at most from having that come back to bite them in the butt if there was a difference from the pure toffees.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy. :(


dr del

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Which why it will be important to only buy from trusted sellers. No different than buying regular hets IMO. I do think it will be easier for many to get in on the project because so many already have albinos in their collection. So all they have to do is get a het toffee male and they can start producing.

if he were to sell the normal babys what would he sell them as dbl hets or het toffie or albinos and that in itself can be a problem even for a rep dealer he will most likely be holding all of them back but as this becomes more practiced it would be hard for a person with less time dealling with hets to relise what they buy or sell

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

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In the carpet python world, this is always a big concern. With the 88% designer intergrade jaguars being produced nowadays, how do you know that when you're purchasing an IJ or jungle that it isn't an 88% intergrade sibling that someone is trying to pass off as something easier to sell?

For that matter, how do you know that when you buy a female het toffee that it isn't just a normal? Until you get a chance to breed and prove it out through offspring, it's only as much of a gamble as the person you are buying it from is trustworthy.

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Originally Posted by Abaddon91

if he were to sell the normal babys what would he sell them as dbl hets or het toffie or albinos and that in itself can be a problem even for a rep dealer he will most likely be holding all of them back but as this becomes more practiced it would be hard for a person with less time dealling with hets to relise what they buy or sell

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So a toffino x nomal would have to be sold as het toffee OR het albino. But it can't be a double het since they are allelic.

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

So a toffino x nomal would have to be sold as het toffee OR het albino. But it can't be a double het since they are allelic.

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Correct, They would be Toffahets. Because you cant tell if they are 100%het albino OR 100% toffee.

Similar to how Paradigmn Boas make Parahets because you dont know if there het for BW Caramel OR het for Sharp Albino. So they are giving there own name and priced inbetween the two.

Hi,

Problem with that is who would pay the het toffee price for a possible het albino?

If they were close in price maybe - but not at the moment. The price in the middle is going to be way to expensive to risk it for me at any rate.

Once we have pics of toffinos and toffee's at the same age that show a discernable difference then I think things will calm down again. If they are identical however then everyone selling a toffee is facing an uphill battle proving the genetics of the animal.

I'm hoping there was an unknown het regular albino introduced at an early stage for the sake of the morph rather than it being an alellic (sp? ) situation similar to mojaves and lessers.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Problem with that is who would pay the het toffee price for a possible het albino?

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I imagine it will be like pricing for possible hets. So maybe a 100% het toffee goes for $1500 and het albino goes for $100. Then maybe a het toffino would be $500 or something like that. So you pay a little more to gamble.

But you're correct that it will be necessary to hopefully have some phenotypic differences be evident at an earlier stage. If the toffees really are identical to regular albinos as hatchlings, then you'd have to wait a while to know if you lucked out and made a toffee/toffino or albino.

Hi,

Thats the problem right there.

We know toffees look like regular albinos at birth - but that they colour up as they age. So do toffino's from the pictures on the bush league.

So at hatching you have 3 seperate genotypes that look completely the same.

One worth $16k and one worth $400.

So you have to wait until the colour change to start. Then you know it is either the pure toffee worth $16k or a toffino - but not which one.

How do you, as an honest seller, deal with that?

And how do you think the dishonest scammers will deal with that?

I'm as curious as everyone else to see what a toffino bred to a normal can produce. Just to rule out or in seperate gene locations combining to make a super.

Also a visual toffee to a visual albino should also clarify things a bit I think after a few clutches.

Or am I thinking about this wrong?


dr del

No, you're absolutely correct. Those are all reasons to be concerned. Hopefully future pairings and side by side comparisons will allow those questions and concerns to be addressed.

I think you're right that a toffee x albino will be a good pairing, as well as toffee x toffee. With additional hatchlings hopefully differences will start to manifest.

Hi,

Paul just posted on the uk forum that he doesn't think they (toffinos ) look the same colour at the same ages compared to his homozygous toffee.

So there is hope of being able to tell within a couple of sheds which is which. :please:


dr del

I want a toffee spider and a toffee clown, wait is that off topic? Sorry. I'm not a geneticist but with breeding rats I would have tan hooded ones with dark pink eyes that I would breed to all white ones with light pink eyes and get various different albino types, but without breeding white light pink to white light pink I wouldn't get white light pink ones. Alot faster breeding rats than snakes.

My concern is how do you rule out the het toffee was also het albino or the other way around? and maybe they are not compatable just happen to have a double het in one of the pair:confused:

Well,

That's kind of why I suggested the visual toffee x visual albino pairing.

If you get even one normal looking animal it isn't allelic.

If you get all albino looking animals then they might be allelic Or it's a combo morph.

Kind of like an extreme version of het pied being visually detectable in some of the combo's NERD is talking about.

If not all of the albinos colour up the same it might be the unsuspected het or a combo created by adding a het toffee gene to a homozygous albino.

But if it was a standard albino het then only 50% of the offspring should get a copy of that gene.

That should hopefully let you see how a het toffee het albino and a het toffee homozygous albino compare.

If they all colour up the same then we need to start faffing around even more using the toffinos.

Er.... I think. :confused:

All I know is that if I was heavily into the toffee or candy morph I'd be trying to find out the exact genetics as quickly as possible to try and protect the morph.


dr del

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

My concern is how do you rule out the het toffee was also het albino or the other way around? and maybe they are not compatable just happen to have a double het in one of the pair:confused:

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like just about everything in the snake genetics world, statistics is how we determine what is "fact." Chances of multiple breeders screwing up and selling double hets for the price of a single het, then selling those animals to other breeders who all produce similar results.... I'd say the chances are pretty low.

It would be interesting if it turned out to be a combo, but judging by all the other morphs that are allelic, i think its a safe bet to assume they are also.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

like just about everything in the snake genetics world, statistics is how we determine what is "fact." Chances of multiple breeders screwing up and selling double hets for the price of a single het, then selling those animals to other breeders who all produce similar results.... I'd say the chances are pretty low.

It would be interesting if it turned out to be a combo, but judging by all the other morphs that are allelic, i think its a safe bet to assume they are also.

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My point is there are many animals that ARE het for something and we have no idea until they are actually bred. I know several different people (here on BP net) that got surprise clutches with clowns, pieds, ghosts and albinos when they thought only one of the pairing carried the gene and the other (a completely different morph) turned out also to be a het to their other snake. One case they had no idea either snake was het for ghost until they popped up. Happens all the time.

Het for albino is probably the most common recessive trait out there. Food for thought;)

The problem we have now is that every one is putting in all of there "expert" opinions, or "facts" about a new development of a morph that quit frankly no one knows what is realy going on.
No one knows whats going on yet. So many people are saying this or that and its all conjecture. More breedings need to be done. Hatchlings need to grow into adults. Those adults need to be bred. Untill then all this crud about whats going on is unproven and as far as everyone else should be concerned unaccurate.
All of the "genetic" experts in the ball python world with there half accurate(false) knowledge of basic genetics saying whats going on with the whole Toffee project realy cracks me up. Most of these people don't even know how real codominant/dominant genes work or what they are.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Get a het Toffee and try your own magic. After the breedings are done and we have passed a few years down the road then we may have a better understanding of whats Realy going on.




Also all this talk about Allels. There can be more than 2 Allels on a Loci. Food for thought. Some color genes have 3 or 4 Allels. Some Loci can affect other Loci. But oh yea this is "Ball Python" genetics. They work completely differently than every other living creature.

Sure we could be proven wrong later but these animals are being sold now and pairings are being planned for next season so we need a best guess informed theory now. The allele theory seems most likely to be right here just like it was with the platy. It took many years for the majority of people, including those breeding them, to come around to the allele explanation for the platy but perhaps some where well served by listening while it was still a crackpot theory. Maybe not the best example because I don't recall seeing the hidden gene being marketed but in this case it's reasonable to assume that soon a fair number of breeders will have access to both toffee and albino genetics and be making decisions based on whatever theory sounds best to them at that time so best not to defer the discussion any longer.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The problem we have now is that every one is putting in all of there "expert" opinions, or "facts" about a new development of a morph that quit frankly no one knows what is realy going on.
No one knows whats going on yet. So many people are saying this or that and its all conjecture. More breedings need to be done. Hatchlings need to grow into adults. Those adults need to be bred. Untill then all this crud about whats going on is unproven and as far as everyone else should be concerned unaccurate.
All of the "genetic" experts in the ball python world with there half accurate(false) knowledge of basic genetics saying whats going on with the whole Toffee project realy cracks me up. Most of these people don't even know how real codominant/dominant genes work or what they are.

Sit back and enjoy the ride. Get a het Toffee and try your own magic. After the breedings are done and we have passed a few years down the road then we may have a better understanding of whats Realy going on.




Also all this talk about Allels. There can be more than 2 Allels on a Loci. Food for thought. Some color genes have 3 or 4 Allels. Some Loci can affect other Loci. But oh yea this is "Ball Python" genetics. They work completely differently than every other living creature.

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I wouldn't go knocking on anyone since you earlier in the other thread made a claim that it was possible for it to be compatible with both albino and lav albino......

codom and dom are just terms to describe observable traits, mendel's system, it has little to do with whats going on at a genetic level, you have alleles and loci, heterozygous and homozygous, doesn't get more simple than that and this is what we are talking about. The ball python world has changed mendels system but it still works and imo makes more sense for what we are dealing with, otherwise we would be calling most things co-dom.

there cannot be more than 2 alleles on a locus, when a baby is coming to be, you get 1 allele from a locus from mom and 1 allele form the same locus from dad. while some alleles can produce similar results (ex. the 3 lines of axanthic) they are on different loci. If you have an extra chromosome you can have 3 alleles but we know what problems that usually causes.

I would be hard pressed to call anything a "color gene" because a single allele can effect multiple traits. look at the spider. for all we know the pastel gene might cause other things to happen other than just color. We don't know.

no nothing is 100% set in stone here, but judging patterns and looking at statistics you can make some pretty safe assumptions that might as well be "fact" until proven otherwise. just like the leopard being a visual het pied

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The problem we have now is that every one is putting in all of there "expert" opinions, or "facts" about a new development of a morph that quit frankly no one knows what is realy going on.

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If het toffee x het albino = albino of some sort, then they are compatible and the simplest explanation is that they are allelic to each other. Simple as that.

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No one knows whats going on yet.

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Is it fully understood? No, but based on the results so far, they appear to be allelic to each other.

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Most of these people don't even know how real codominant/dominant genes work or what they are.

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Yes, the terms co-dominant/dominant are misused, but that is a technicality more than anything. These people have a good enough understanding to have a good idea of what is going on.

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Also all this talk about Allels. There can be more than 2 Allels on a Loci. Food for thought. Some color genes have 3 or 4 Allels. Some Loci can affect other Loci. But oh yea this is "Ball Python" genetics. They work completely differently than every other living creature.

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There can be multiple alleles for a given loci, however, bps are diploid meaning they only have two copies of chromosomes, thus can only have two alleles at a given loci for a single animal.

This whole toffee x albino thing has become a huge mess. I have one question. If someone paired a visual albino to a visual toffee does that mean that w.e visual morph that came out would be a toffino. Since both albino and the toffee are recessive, when paired together, they couldn't throw albinos or toffees, instead they'd throw visual toffinos and hets, correct?

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Originally Posted by that_dc5

This whole toffee x albino thing has become a huge mess. I have one question. If someone paired a visual albino to a visual toffee does that mean that w.e visual morph that came out would be a toffino. Since both albino and the toffee are recessive, when paired together, they couldn't throw albinos or toffees, instead they'd throw visual toffinos and hets, correct?

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It would be 100% toffino

Assumptions are not fact. We all know what they say about assuming.
Is it not compatible with Lav? The breedings are still being tried. It is possible. We do have to wait and see. Sure it may not be but we just don't know yet. It could be that the Toffee is an inbetween and can work with both. I am not the only one who thinks this can be possible.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Assumptions are not fact. We all know what they say about assuming.
Is it not compatible with Lav? The breedings are still being tried. It is possible. We do have to wait and see. Sure it may not be but we just don't know yet. It could be that the Toffee is an inbetween and can work with both. I am not the only one who thinks this can be possible.

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There is always going to be a small chance that every single toffee is het albino also, so pick a number, how many eggs do you want to see until it is "fact"? For most of us, there is enough evidence from the breedings already done. Nothing is ever going to be 100% fact so you have to make an assumption at some point.

As I said in the other thread, Albino and Lav do not lay on the same locus. So toffee has to lay on one or the other, there is no in between, its just simply not possible, or you guys have a new theory on how DNA is built?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

It could be that the Toffee is an inbetween and can work with both. I am not the only one who thinks this can be possible.

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Very very unlikely. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where toffee and albino are allelic,; albino is not compatible with lav albino, yet toffee is compatible with lav albino? Genetically it just doesn't make any sense.

The simplest and most plausible explanation has already been presented.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

There is always going to be a small chance that every single toffee is het albino also, so pick a number, how many eggs do you want to see until it is "fact"? For most of us, there is enough evidence from the breedings already done. Nothing is ever going to be 100% fact so you have to make an assumption at some point.

As I said in the other thread, Albino and Lav do not lay on the same locus. So toffee has to lay on one or the other, there is no in between, its just simply not possible, or you guys have a new theory on how DNA is built?

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Because you know genetics. New theory on how DNA is built? Really? And I though you were better than that. Yea because you can tell what they are as hatchlings? You know how they are going to look as adults? The people actually involved in the project don't know yet what is going on but you do right? Come on now. Conjecture and assumptions by people not even in the project much less even personally seen the animals.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Because you know genetics. New theory on how DNA is built? Really? And I though you were better than that.

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I'm trying to be nice here, so i will just ask...why do you keep insisting it is possible? Apparently I know nothing, so ed-you-mah-kate me please great master. "Just because I say so" doesn't fly with me.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Yea because you can tell what they are as hatchlings? You know how they are going to look as adults?

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well if an albino looking creature popped out of the egg from a het toffee x het albino pairing...what else would it be besides a toffino? The one produced last year looks like a toffee (at least to me) it almost a year old now, so we atleast have a good idea of what its going to look like as an adult. and what does this have to do with the current disagreement? :confused:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

The people actually involved in the project don't know yet what is going on but you do right? Come on now. Conjecture and assumptions by people not even in the project much less even personally seen the animals.

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The people involved with the project both seem pretty sure they know whats going on .... why do you think they do not? Why do we have to see animal in person or be involved with the project to have a basic understanding of how loci and alleles work? Information is right in front of us, what more do you need.

You are the one saying "This is so" are you not? I never did. I said it may be possible, oh nay sayer.

You say Toffino yet the animal appears to be a Toffee. Until it is bred out and proven what it is then NO one will know exactly what it is. Right now it is a mystery. What if it is a double visual? What if the Toffee gene takes over some how and actually creates a Toffee? But yet you and a few others say exactly what it is? The people working with the project aren't doing that. Just some of the experts.

I have not seen one person involved with this project make such bold statements yet of what is going on as I have seen you make.

And sorry sir but you are no genetic expert and you know really nothing beyond what the majority of breeders knows bout ball python genetics. I am no expert on genetics. I do know about Loci, allels and genomes as well as other genetic junk. I am no expert but I also don't pretend to be. I also know what Dominance means, what INCOMPLETE dominance means and what co-dominance means and what each of then do.

Until some one takes the time and money needed to map the ball python genome then all we have to go on is what is proven out by breeding.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

What if the Toffee gene takes over some how and actually creates a Toffee?

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Then it would be a dominant mutation, which it is not.

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I have not seen one person involved with this project make such bold statements yet of what is going on as I have seen you make.

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They are saying it is compatible, which is what is being said here.

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And sorry sir but you are no genetic expert and you know really nothing beyond what the majority of breeders knows bout ball python genetics. I am no expert on genetics. I do know about Loci, allels and genomes as well as other genetic junk. I am no expert but I also don't pretend to be. I also know what Dominance means, what INCOMPLETE dominance means and what co-dominance means and what each of then do.

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Well I do work in a research lab that deals heavily with genetics. What you are proposing is extremely unlikely. Like I said, I still can't imagine a scenario where toffee and albino are compatible, albino is not compatible with lav albino, yet toffee is?

If you can think of such a scenario, then please share it with us. "It could be possible" isn't a scenario or hypothesis.

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Until some one takes the time and money needed to map the ball python genome then all we have to go on is what is proven out by breeding.

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Probably never going to happen. That takes a lot of time and $$ with not much to gain. And even then, its not going to be useful for your average hobbyist or even big time breeder.

@ Blue Apple Herps Well put. I think this is one of those issues that is not going to be resolved for a few more years if ever. But I do 100% agree with you.

I was starting to wonder if you were a troll, but even if you are, im having fun now :D

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

You are the one saying "This is so" are you not? I never did. I said it may be possible, oh nay sayer.

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You still fail to explain how it is possible, but I explained myself multiple times, in case you missed it....

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

there cannot be more than 2 alleles on a locus, when a baby is coming to be, you get 1 allele from a locus from mom and 1 allele form the same locus from dad.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

As I said in the other thread, Albino and Lav do not lay on the same locus. So toffee has to lay on one or the other, there is no in between, its just simply not possible, or you guys have a new theory on how DNA is built?

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and from the other thread to you

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

We have this thing called a locus, this is were said morphs sits, albino and lav albino have already been proven NOT to sit on the same locus and assuming we don't have a dbl het, this guy proves albino and toffee DO sit on the same locus (aka compatible). therefore it cannot be compatible with lav albino since it does not sit on the same locus.

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So please correct me where I am wrong on my understanding of how loci and alleles work please? I even drew on a picture to explain myself since I obviously don't make any sense.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...graphics-2.jpg

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

You say Toffino yet the animal appears to be a Toffee. Until it is bred out and proven what it is then NO one will know exactly what it is. Right now it is a mystery. What if it is a double visual?

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A het Toffee was bred to a het albino... therefore it is a toffino. Your assuming these snakes are not what the people involved with the project are saying they are with your "what if"

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

What if the Toffee gene takes over some how and actually creates a Toffee?

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What if pastel is actually a recessive gene and just so happens that every pastel that was bred to a het pastel and no one has ever hit the odds on hetxhet breeding and then it acts all crazy when two homozygous pastels are bred together and some how makes what we call a super pastel.

I can play the what if game also.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

But yet you and a few others say exactly what it is? The people working with the project aren't doing that. Just some of the experts.

I have not seen one person involved with this project make such bold statements yet of what is going on as I have seen you make.

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Ummm... check the video in the first post? you also need to still explain to me how you need to be involved with the project to know whats going on? Unless your assuming their all lying to us?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

And sorry sir but you are no genetic expert and you know really nothing beyond what the majority of breeders knows bout ball python genetics. I am no expert on genetics. I do know about Loci, allels and genomes as well as other genetic junk. I am no expert but I also don't pretend to be. I also know what Dominance means, what INCOMPLETE dominance means and what co-dominance means and what each of then do.

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congrads, you know how to classify things. YAY for mandel. Which btw has nothing to do with the disagreement. Nice attempt at slander though. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Until some one takes the time and money needed to map the ball python genome then all we have to go on is what is proven out by breeding.

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generic statement, we can never 100% prove anything, 99.9% is just not good enough. :rolleyes:

Troll? LoL. Realy? I think I would not fit into the term of a Troll.

Ok. I don't understand why you feel the need to make this into such a big deal. I said it could be possible for Toffee and Lav to be compatible some how. Why not? It appears to be compatible some how with Albino. Who would have ever thought that Toffee and Albino would have been compatible? If I had said a year ago that I thought it would be possible you would be saying the same thing you are now. I don't appreciate you trying to use your basic knowledge of genetics and trying to make your self seam so knowledgeable while trying to make me seam so un knowledgeable and a troll. Thanks for the attacks.

Apparently in all of your knowledge in genetics you have not learned about Polygenic traits. Some traits are determined by the combined effect of more than one pair of genes. These are called Polygenic or continuous traits. Most color pigments are polygenic traits because they are influenced by more than one allele at different loci. The result is the perception of continuous gradation in the expression of these traits.

Some Theories on Genetics:
The Mendel Theory
The Bruce Lowe Theory
Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium Theory
and The Galton Theory

Here, I can say a bunch of stuff just like you but I am not going to use pretty drawings.I will have some things colored blue so that you wont miss them. :P

Trait or Characteristic
The physical manifestation of gene actions. A trait could be blue eyes, blond hair color, and so forth.

Genotype Refers to the exact genes and alleles (genetic code) an individual possesses.

Genotype is also used to refer to the pair of alleles present at a single locus. With alleles 'A' and 'a' there are three possible genotypes AA, Aa and aa. With three alleles 1, 2, 3 there are six possible genotypes: 11, 12, 13, 22, 23, 33. First we must appreciate that genes do not act in isolation. The genome in which a genotype is found can affect the expression of that genotype, and the environment can affect the phenotype.
Phenotype The physical result you can see (or measure) that a genotype produces.

Homozygous When both alleles of a gene pair (locus) are the same, they are known as homozygous.

Heterozygous When each allele of a gene pair (locus) are different from each other, they are known as heterozygous

Dominant Refers to an allele that will always express itself in the phenotype when it is present. It will "override" other recessive alleles

Recessive Refers to an allele that can only express itself in the phenotype when a dominant allele is not present along with it. Recessive alleles can only express themselves when they are homozygous... that is, when both alleles are recessive, and there is no dominant allele to override them.

Partial or Incomplete Dominant
Refers to an allele that has a different or more intense phenotypic action in its homozygous state, than in it's heterozygous state. When the genotype is heterozygous for this locus, only part of the trait is visible in the phenotype. When homozygous for both alleles... the effect can be said to be "doubled"-- the two alleles together cause more visible effect.

Co-Dominant Alleles Refers to the case when two different alleles are present, both express themselves in the phenotype.

Never heard of Linked Traits?
Linked Traits or Linkage Loci that are very close together on the same chromosome are often "linked". That is, the genetic material "crosses over" in groups and blocks of amino acids (rather than completely randomly) and the linked alleles are very likely to be transferred to the offspring together as a "team". The closer the loci are to each other on the chromosome, the less likely the "team" will be broken up. The farther away the loci are... the more likely the "team" will be broken up. Loci that are on different chromosomes are not considered "linked".

PleitropicGenes that affect more than one trait.

Multiple-allele SeriesThe ABO blood type system is also an example of a trait that is controlled by more than just a single pair of alleles. In other words, it is due to a multiple-allele series. In this case, there are three alleles (A, B, and O), but each individual only inherits two of them (one from each parent).


Epistasis Refers to the condition where the genotype at one locus has a direct effect on the expression (phenotype) of the gene pair/alleles at a different locus. Typically... the instructions at one gene locus masks or overrides the instructions at another. The locus that masks another is called the Epistatic locus. The locus that is masked, or overridden, is referred to as the Hypostatic locus.

PolygenicPolygenic inheritance can be explained by additive effects of many loci: if each "capital" allele contributes one increment to the phenotype. With one locus and additive effects we have three phenotypic classes: AA, Aa and aa. With two loci and two alleles in a strictly additive model (i.e., no epistasis or other modifying effects) we can have five phenotypic classes aabb<Aabb=aaBb<AaBb=AAbb=aaBB<AABb=AaBB<AABB and the intermediate phenotypic values can be produced in more ways, so should be more frequent. The more loci affecting the trait, the greater number of phenotypic classes.

Dilute or Dilution Genes A dilute gene is one that causes the hair (and/or skin) pigment to be diluted... that is, contains less pigment.

Lethal Traits or Genes Genes that are lethal (cause the animal's death either prior to birth or soon after) are usually Partially Dominant. Many have no detrimental effect in their heterozygous form, but are lethal in their homozygous forms.

Regulator genes
Regulatory genes can either initiate or block the expression of other genes.

How about Stuttering Alleles?

Quite frankly your attacks bore me. You seam to be one of those who likes to feel superior by trying to make others seam inferior. It does not work on me.

I guess that all of the ones working this project that are also breeding their het Toffees with Lav and het lavs are just doing those breedings for what?..... just to waste those Lavs for a year or two for nothing? Yea ok I buy that. I am also willing to waste my breeding females for a season or two.


I am hopeful that the Toffee will prove compatible with the Lav as well. Who knows, maybe it won’t. It may not. I wish I was working with the Toffee and that I could try too. If it doesn’t, then no big deal. It’s at least proven to some how be compatible with the Albino. I can't wait and am very excited to see what becomes of this project.

Anyways I am done arguing with you about something Neither of us knows for sure of what’s going on. It's pointless. I really hate the fact that you have turned it into this and that I have entertained it. I will not post further on this subject Thank you very much. Bye- bye now have a great day! :P

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Ok. I don't understand why you feel the need to make this into such a big deal. I said it could be possible for Toffee and Lav to be compatible some how. Why not? It appears to be compatible some how with Albino. Who would have ever thought that Toffee and Albino would have been compatible? If I had said a year ago that I thought it would be possible you would be saying the same thing you are now. I don't appreciate you trying to use your basic knowledge of genetics and trying to make your self seam so knowledgeable while trying to make me seam so un knowledgeable and a troll. Thanks for the attacks.

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The big deal was you starting with no one knows anything, we are all idiots for using the fact put in front of us to make some logical conclusions. Then you bringing nothing to offer with it, besides stating how superior your genetic knowledge is to everyone else. Doesn't this sound like a troll to you? Sorry for the mistake.

No i wouldn't of said the same thing a year ago, it makes perfect sense for them to be compatible, 2 genes that screw with melanin... look at boas, motley and hypo are compatible. Would I have suspected it... no, but this world is full of surprises. The issue with lav and toffee is with the genes laying on 2 different loci... you know im just repeating myself again.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Apparently in all of your knowledge in genetics you have not learned about Polygenic traits. Some traits are determined by the combined effect of more than one pair of genes. These are called Polygenic or continuous traits. Most color pigments are polygenic traits because they are influenced by more than one allele at different loci. The result is the perception of continuous gradation in the expression of these traits.

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This describes why we have some many variations in normals and other morphs. Are you suggesting that the Toffino is the result of this? This is where statistics and looking at previous patterns comes in.... where to see a hint of evidence of this? Unless you know something I don't, the chances of this happening are so astronomically low, its hardly worth mentioning. If we are all idiots because there is a chance of this causing the Toffino... well Ill be an idiot. Also how can you 100% prove this is not the case for every morph?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Some Theories on Genetics:
The Mendel Theory
The Bruce Lowe Theory
Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium Theory
and The Galton Theory

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Failing to see what this has to do with anything? We all know mendel, lowe says female quality is more important than male, Hardy-Weinberg states frequencies remain constant in lab conditions, and Galton says more champions in the blood the better the offspring.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Genotype is also used to refer to the pair of alleles present at a single locus. With alleles 'A' and 'a' there are three possible genotypes AA, Aa and aa. With three alleles 1, 2, 3 there are six possible genotypes: 11, 12, 13, 22, 23, 33. First we must appreciate that genes do not act in isolation. The genome in which a genotype is found can affect the expression of that genotype, and the environment can affect the phenotype.

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This describes exactly what I have been saying... The albino/toffee locus has 3 alleles we know about, including normal. BEL complex has 10 that we know about. making 55 possible genotypes... what were you getting at. You can still only have 2 sitting there at a time.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Never heard of Linked Traits?
Linked Traits or Linkage Loci that are very close together on the same chromosome are often "linked". That is, the genetic material "crosses over" in groups and blocks of amino acids (rather than completely randomly) and the linked alleles are very likely to be transferred to the offspring together as a "team". The closer the loci are to each other on the chromosome, the less likely the "team" will be broken up. The farther away the loci are... the more likely the "team" will be broken up. Loci that are on different chromosomes are not considered "linked".

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Which may describe some of the stuff going on at NERD. I still don't see the connection on the topic. Whats your theory?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Epistasis Refers to the condition where the genotype at one locus has a direct effect on the expression (phenotype) of the gene pair/alleles at a different locus. Typically... the instructions at one gene locus masks or overrides the instructions at another. The locus that masks another is called the Epistatic locus. The locus that is masked, or overridden, is referred to as the Hypostatic locus.

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This doesn't make any sense to me, it seems like your suggestion the toffee gene overides the albino gene, but then it would still require the toffee gene to express itself in the heterozygous form and only do it when the albino gene is present. Again what are the chances of this? Ill continue to be an idiot.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Quite frankly your attacks bore me. You seam to be one of those who likes to feel superior by trying to make others seam inferior. It does not work on me.

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Hypocritical don't you think?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I guess that all of the ones working this project that are also breeding their het Toffees with Lav and het lavs are just doing those breedings for what?..... just to waste those Lavs for a year or two for nothing? Yea ok I buy that. I am also willing to waste my breeding females for a season or two.

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A double homozygous might be pretty sweet don't ya think?

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Anyways I am done arguing with you about something Neither of us knows for sure of what’s going on. It's pointless. I really hate the fact that you have turned it into this and that I have entertained it. I will not post further on this subject Thank you very much. Bye- bye now have a great day! :P

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Hey Reread the thread and look who started the attack... but I welcome you to a civil discussion and elaborate on what you posted above. Finally got something out of you other than "because I said so"