Interesting Twist on Toffee Project

[babyknees]

This is so cool. I want to see how it grows up. I wonder if it will age like a toffee...
Now I want to get a het. toffee male to pair with my albino.

[The Urban Python]

Congratulations to Peter for producing the first Toffee X Albino (Toffino). I have to admit it comes as quite a surprise the idea of the two being compatible. Particularly with the difference in eye color between an adult Albino and an adult Toffee is so different. Having said that, the body color of the two could not be more different either. So clearly moving forward adult body and eye color will hold no merit in determining whether morphs are compatible or not. I'm just kicking myself that we didn't do the cross.

We had heard all the same rumors everyone else was hearing but couldn’t confirm anything. Finally they can all be put to rest and the project can move onto its next chapter, which I honestly believe is going to be very exciting to say the least. I have read both positive and negative feedback about this discovery and our position is an extremely positive one and I believe anyone involved in the project or considering getting into it should feel the exact same way. Why? For one very simple reason, you need a Toffee to make a Toffee. Sure pricing on females will need to be realigned going into this season but for any of you that are holding Albino combination males or like the idea of pure Toffees, females will continue to be in demand. Having said that the demand for Toffee males and 100% Het Toffee males will increase substantially. Firstly with this discovery investors will get a faster return on their investment like you would with a co-dom and the project is now more achievable for the budget minded investor. Most of us have Albinos or 100% Het Albinos in our collection so with this new discovery you’ll just need to get yourself a Toffee or a 100% Het Toffee male to start producing these visually amazing snakes.

To think the value of this project will crash with there being so many Albinos and Het Albinos out there is absurd. For comparison, there are allot more Bananas in collections than Toffees and I think we can all agree that there a couple more Normals in collections to breed Bananas to than there are Albinos and Het Albinos to breed Toffees to. In fact we strongly believe demand will increase even more now and how can’t it? The Toffee is still a very, very rare morph with only a handful in existence and with this new discovery investors can get a return on investment within a similar time frame as a co-dom. For us this discovery is huge and incredibly positive for the project. So for those of you that were thinking of selling your Albinos or Het Albinos think again and get into the Toffee project .

Oh and by-the-way check out these photos of a yearling Toffee that we just took. No matter how many times I photograph these guys I am still blown away by them. Also if anyone has any questions or comments for us please feel free to call us at 905 264-5557.
Best regards,

Craig Stewart
The Urban Reptile
Tel: 905 264-5557

[Blue Apple Herps]

I'm guessing they will be co-dominant (CORRECT usage of the term btw) to each other and produce an intermediate coloration, but if it turns out that one is dominant over the other then I'd have to guess that albino, as the more extreme reduction in melanin, would be dominant over toffee.

Actually, I'd guess it would be the other way around, toffee being dominant or an intermediate form. It's possible the mutation in "normal" albinos results in complete loss of function of a gene in the melanin pathway, whereas toffee bps maintain some or reduced function. In which case a toffino would have a single copy of complete loss of function, and a single copy with some function. Leading to an intermediate or dominant phenotype.

Regardless, its very cool to see!

[Freakie_frog]

While interesting this isn't the first time we have seen this in the Ball Python world. There are other traits that share a different Phenotype appearance but appear to fall on the same Locus. Examples of this are YB and spector, Leopard and pied, any of the BEL complex. This is however the first time two recessive traits have had such drastic phenotype differences and yet been compatible.

One thing I suspect is that Toffee's are simply a weaker form of Albino that as it ages gains the ability to produce melanin and thus getting the brownish tone to them. We see this already in some Hypos and axanthics where as they age the gene seems to weaken just enough to cause a slight change in appearance, or could hormonal production as they mature be responsible? I've seen spiders loose their color altogether and BEL get yellow stripes like an Ivory after hormones kick in.

Just food for thought.

[dr del]

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy.


dr del

[koloo921]

Thanks for sharing

[Russ Lawson]

While interesting this isn't the first time we have seen this in the Ball Python world. There are other traits that share a different Phenotype appearance but appear to fall on the same Locus. Examples of this are YB and spector, Leopard and pied, any of the BEL complex. This is however the first time two recessive traits have had such drastic phenotype differences and yet been compatible.

One thing I suspect is that Toffee's are simply a weaker form of Albino that as it ages gains the ability to produce melanin and thus getting the brownish tone to them. We see this already in some Hypos and axanthics where as they age the gene seems to weaken just enough to cause a slight change in appearance, or could hormonal production as they mature be responsible? I've seen spiders loose their color altogether and BEL get yellow stripes like an Ivory after hormones kick in.

Just food for thought.

If the alleles for leopard and pied fell on the same locus, it would be impossible to get leopard pieds. It is more likely that they are located in close proximity on the same chromosome if in fact the "all leopards are het pied" bit has some semblance of truth to it. However, I think this idea people have may only be due to the fact that leopard was tied into the pied project by Pete Kahl from the get-go. I would expect to start finding that the leopards that being produced from crossing the mutation into others aren't all het pied.

[Russ Lawson]

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy.


dr del

I agree that with this project it will be extremely important to be careful about the source of the toffees. I am really curious to see how the toffino looks next to a toffee of similar age though - especially at adult sizes. If they are impossible to distinguish, it could create some serious problems down the road with the less honest people trying to pass off toffinos as pure toffees. Not to mention that some are already wondering if het albinos had been passed off as het toffees in pairs with real het toffees. I don't think that would have happened yet because nobody knew what an adult toffino looked like (or to my knowledge even if they went through a colour change at all), and they would be only a couple years away at most from having that come back to bite them in the butt if there was a difference from the pure toffees.

[Blue Apple Herps]

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy.


dr del

Which why it will be important to only buy from trusted sellers. No different than buying regular hets IMO. I do think it will be easier for many to get in on the project because so many already have albinos in their collection. So all they have to do is get a het toffee male and they can start producing.

[Abaddon91]

if he were to sell the normal babys what would he sell them as dbl hets or het toffie or albinos and that in itself can be a problem even for a rep dealer he will most likely be holding all of them back but as this becomes more practiced it would be hard for a person with less time dealling with hets to relise what they buy or sell