Interesting Twist on Toffee Project

[mainbutter]

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

In the carpet python world, this is always a big concern. With the 88% designer intergrade jaguars being produced nowadays, how do you know that when you're purchasing an IJ or jungle that it isn't an 88% intergrade sibling that someone is trying to pass off as something easier to sell?

For that matter, how do you know that when you buy a female het toffee that it isn't just a normal? Until you get a chance to breed and prove it out through offspring, it's only as much of a gamble as the person you are buying it from is trustworthy.

[Blue Apple Herps]

if he were to sell the normal babys what would he sell them as dbl hets or het toffie or albinos and that in itself can be a problem even for a rep dealer he will most likely be holding all of them back but as this becomes more practiced it would be hard for a person with less time dealling with hets to relise what they buy or sell

So a toffino x nomal would have to be sold as het toffee OR het albino. But it can't be a double het since they are allelic.

[AGoldReptiles]

So a toffino x nomal would have to be sold as het toffee OR het albino. But it can't be a double het since they are allelic.

Correct, They would be Toffahets. Because you cant tell if they are 100%het albino OR 100% toffee.

Similar to how Paradigmn Boas make Parahets because you dont know if there het for BW Caramel OR het for Sharp Albino. So they are giving there own name and priced inbetween the two.

[dr del]

Hi,

Problem with that is who would pay the het toffee price for a possible het albino?

If they were close in price maybe - but not at the moment. The price in the middle is going to be way to expensive to risk it for me at any rate.

Once we have pics of toffinos and toffee's at the same age that show a discernable difference then I think things will calm down again. If they are identical however then everyone selling a toffee is facing an uphill battle proving the genetics of the animal.

I'm hoping there was an unknown het regular albino introduced at an early stage for the sake of the morph rather than it being an alellic (sp? ) situation similar to mojaves and lessers.


dr del

[Blue Apple Herps]

Hi,

Problem with that is who would pay the het toffee price for a possible het albino?

I imagine it will be like pricing for possible hets. So maybe a 100% het toffee goes for $1500 and het albino goes for $100. Then maybe a het toffino would be $500 or something like that. So you pay a little more to gamble.

But you're correct that it will be necessary to hopefully have some phenotypic differences be evident at an earlier stage. If the toffees really are identical to regular albinos as hatchlings, then you'd have to wait a while to know if you lucked out and made a toffee/toffino or albino.

[dr del]

Hi,

Thats the problem right there.

We know toffees look like regular albinos at birth - but that they colour up as they age. So do toffino's from the pictures on the bush league.

So at hatching you have 3 seperate genotypes that look completely the same.

One worth $16k and one worth $400.

So you have to wait until the colour change to start. Then you know it is either the pure toffee worth $16k or a toffino - but not which one.

How do you, as an honest seller, deal with that?

And how do you think the dishonest scammers will deal with that?

I'm as curious as everyone else to see what a toffino bred to a normal can produce. Just to rule out or in seperate gene locations combining to make a super.

Also a visual toffee to a visual albino should also clarify things a bit I think after a few clutches.

Or am I thinking about this wrong?


dr del

[Blue Apple Herps]

No, you're absolutely correct. Those are all reasons to be concerned. Hopefully future pairings and side by side comparisons will allow those questions and concerns to be addressed.

I think you're right that a toffee x albino will be a good pairing, as well as toffee x toffee. With additional hatchlings hopefully differences will start to manifest.

[dr del]

Hi,

Paul just posted on the uk forum that he doesn't think they (toffinos ) look the same colour at the same ages compared to his homozygous toffee.

So there is hope of being able to tell within a couple of sheds which is which.


dr del

[LotsaBalls]

I want a toffee spider and a toffee clown, wait is that off topic? Sorry. I'm not a geneticist but with breeding rats I would have tan hooded ones with dark pink eyes that I would breed to all white ones with light pink eyes and get various different albino types, but without breeding white light pink to white light pink I wouldn't get white light pink ones. Alot faster breeding rats than snakes.

[West Coast Jungle]

My concern is how do you rule out the het toffee was also het albino or the other way around? and maybe they are not compatable just happen to have a double het in one of the pair