Provent-A-Mite problem-----PLEASE HELP!

I discoved mites on my 3 1/2 month old mojave about a week ago. I immediately ordered Provent-a-Mite as well as Reptile Relief. After both products came in, I took everything out of his tub and scrubbed everything with antibacterial soap including the tub itself. I then treated everything with Provent-a-Mite. I let it dry for an hour and a half. Everything was dry to the touch and I could smell no odors. While I was waiting for it to dry I sprayed the Reptile Relief on some paper towels and let him slither through them. I could see the mites dying on the paper towel. I then wiped my BP off with a damped (water) paper towel. He seemed normal at this point. I replaced all of his cage furnishings and used paper towels treated with Provent-a-Mite as substrate. Like I said before...everything was dry before I put him in.

About a half hour after I put him back in the tub, I noticed he had flipped over both of his hides and the paper towels were all over the place. This may not seem too weird to some people, but he had never done this before. He was "exploring" the tub a little more than normal when I went to bed. It didn't seem too far outside of the ordinary. When I woke up, I immediately checked on him and it appeared as if he was "convulsing" or "seizing". Whatever you want to call it...it appeared as if he didn't have control of his body. I immediately took him out and put him in a shallow room temperature soak. I left him in for about 15 min while I took everything out of his tub and scrubbed it to remove any traces of the PAM. I then took him out of his soak and ran room temperature water over his body for another 15 min. I did notice some skin in the tub when I cleaned it, but definitely not a lot....just a small piece here and there. There was no evidence of any chemical burn on his body...it looked completely normal. I then put his hides, water bowl, and a SLIGHTLY damp, soft kitchen towel in his tub as substrate. When I put him back in the tub, he seemed to be convulsing a little less, but not much. I am deathly afraid that he has neurological damage from the PAM and that he will need to be put down. If that happens, there will be no way I will be able to forgive myself and I will definitely have to get out of this hobby which I love so much.

I really did a lot of research on the PAM before I used it and I found nothing negative about using it on baby BP's. Has anyone used it on a baby successfully? Is there anything that a vet can do at this point? i have no problem taking him in immediately, but I can't see what they will be able to do that I haven't done already. If it is neurological damage, is there any recovery from that? Can anyone see anything that I did wrong...or anything else i can do to help him? Thank you all for your time.

I am not advising you to bypass the vet visit, but I doubt he can do anything for your issue, based on what I am reading. I also have used PAM on very young ball pythons (as young as 1 month) will no ill effects. From what you stated, it doesn't sound like anything you did, and I don't believe it was the PAM, especially if you let it dry for over an hour. I have actually put snakes back in the enclosure before letting the PAM dry, and have not had a negative experience.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I am not advising you to bypass the vet visit, but I doubt he can do anything for your issue, based on what I am reading. I also have used PAM on very young ball pythons (as young as 1 month) will no ill effects. From what you stated, it doesn't sound like anything you did, and I don't believe it was the PAM, especially if you let it dry for over an hour. I have actually put snakes back in the enclosure before letting the PAM dry, and have not had a negative experience.

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If you don't think it was the PAM, what could it possibly have been? The Reptile Relief? The main reason I don't think the Reptile Relief is the culprit is because it is safe for use on the snake.

I spray all of my new snakes tubs down with PAM the day before they arrive (when I set it up). I have never had an issue with it either. It does not appear that you did anything wrong.

Is it possible that your bp has an allergy to one of those products?

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Originally Posted by Maverick67

Is it possible that your bp has an allergy to one of those products?

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I was thinking that it could be a possibility that he is allergic or has a hypersensitivity to something in those products. Unfortunately, there is no way to determine that prior to using them.

Has anyone ever heard of a BP suffering from a neurological problem as a result of using either of these two products???

I have use both products with no ill effects at all, even with my baby ball pythons. I hope your snake pulls through and does okay.

Sorry to hear your story!

I have not used PAM personally, but I have used Reptile Relief. I did exactly what you did, sprayed paper towels and let the snake slither through them a few times. I did not experience any issues.

Maybe the snake did have an allergic reaction, or maybe that bottle of PAM is bad? I have no idea. I hope your snake gets better. :(

Any chance the snake is in the room while you were treating the tub. The fumes are toxic to them if it was.

Outside of that the only way it should harm you snake is if something prevented it from drying fully. I had heard of someone making the mistake of treating their water dish but the instructions clearly state you must remove it and not treat it with PAM.

Normally you treat the tub with the substrate in side of it. There is an applicaiton amount of 1 second per square foot. If you treat them seperate then the applicaiton amount may be higher. I dont see how this would be harmful if it was perfectly dry but I have never seen anything that says if too much dry PAM can harm the snake.

I did have the PAM people email me and say that if dry PAM is on substrate, and the snake ingests the substrate it will not harm the snake.

Their contention is if it is allowed to dry, it is safe. Even if it gets wet again it is safe. Once dry it is not suluable in water.

There's also the possibility no one has mentioned yet--that the mites transmitted a disease to your snake, and it picked that moment to start showing symptoms.

Reptile Relief has more reported reactions than PAM, used correctly. I've seen bad reactions reported on various forums, though usually with lizards.

I would recommend rinsing the snake off thoroughly, and then soaking it in clean warm water, and making sure water bowls are uncontaminated.

Nervous system problems caused by a chemical are not necessarily permanent. If it was a chemical reaction, give him time, and see if he recovers on his own, don't have him put down right away. Check with a vet before you make any decisions.
You will want a professional opinion.

I would quarantine this snake, if you have other reptiles. Treat all bins with PAM--in spite of the potential bad reaction, such a thing is VERY rare, and if the problem is a disease transmitted by mites, such as IBD, killing the mites is your first priority.

First of all, thank you all for your advice and well wishes. It is certainly what I needed at this time. I just got back from the vet. He did bring up the possibility of the mites transmitting IBD to my BP, but said that the symptomatology was different than a snake with IBD. He said it is most likely a reaction to the permethrin in the Provent-a-mite. He gave me a muscle relaxant called Methocarbamol (Robaxin) to ease his seizures. I have to give this to him orally 4 times per day. He also said to give him LOTS of warm baths to rehydrate him and to soothe his muscles. After his first dose of the medicine and a nice long soak, my Pleepleus is noticeably better. His tremors are greatly reduced and he seems relaxed. The vet also said that the neurological damage is most likely not permanent...but I have to give him time to metabolize the poison in his body. The vet said he normally treats mite outbreaks with Ivermicin sprays, which he claims are much safer than other treatments. Any opinions on that?

If I know my Pleepleus...he is a little fighter and I know he can pull through this. Once again, I greatly appreciate all of you who replied with advice and well wishes. This is truly the best herp forum on the internet! :)

Sorry for the late add...But P.A.M. actually is safe to put directly on the snakes...This was from the maker of the product himself (side note, he's a super nice guy)...They used to have it on their older version...You don't spray directly, but you can spray a towel and then rub down or let the snake slither through the P.A.M. treated rag/towel...

Just a quick morning update....

He seems to be having less and less tremors with every medication administration and soak. When I first take him out of the tub, he still has the tremors...but by the time his treatment is over he is calm, relaxed, and tremor free. I really don't know how beneficial the soaks are to his health, but I can absolutely tell that he is enjoying them and they have a calming effect on his muscles. I suppose they are also doing a good job of keeping him hydrated. One further concern I have is that he was such a fantastic eater before this whole ordeal...that I hope he picks up where he left off when this is all behind us. I hope the stress of the situation doesn't rein his appetite. So far...so good. :please:

Hi,

Just to double check - you didn't spray P-A-M onto the waterbowl then fill it with water did you?


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Just to double check - you didn't spray P-A-M onto the waterbowl then fill it with water did you?


dr del

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No I didn't.

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Originally Posted by lmartelli77

If you don't think it was the PAM, what could it possibly have been? The Reptile Relief? The main reason I don't think the Reptile Relief is the culprit is because it is safe for use on the snake.

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Although it has been answered at other places in this thread, I will comment that I do use reptile relief as well, and wipe it directly on the snake as you did with no ill effects. I wish I had a better answer for what happened to your snake, but I don't. Lastly, while I will not argue with your vet over the use of Ivermectin for mites, I can say that PAM has gone through rigorous testing, and it is a great product to use for the eradication of mites, and has proven time and time again to be very successful when properly used.

Good luck with your snake,

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Lastly, while I will not argue with your vet over the use of Ivermectin for mites, I can say that PAM has gone through rigorous testing, and it is a great product to use for the eradication of mites, and has proven time and time again to be very successful when properly used.

Good luck with your snake,

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Thats why I used it...lol. I read all the good things about it on this forum. I've come to the conclusion that I probably will never know exactly what happened, but I will take this as a learning experience and be thankful that the result wasn't much worse.

The only thing I can think of is that I could have possibly been a little heavy with the application of both products. Either that, or there was some kind of reaction between the two products. Regardless...I'm not going to bad mouth either product because I don't think it is justified and i still am not 100% what caused the problems. Perhaps I was a little premature to assume it was the PAM, but I was pretty freaked out at the moment....lol.

Glad to hear that your ball is doing better.
Might I suggest to avoid this from happening again should you get mites a second time, is to ditch the PAM and pick up some Nix. You can do a search on the forums for the product.

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Originally Posted by alohareptiles

Sorry for the late add...But P.A.M. actually is safe to put directly on the snakes...This was from the maker of the product himself (side note, he's a super nice guy)...They used to have it on their older version...You don't spray directly, but you can spray a towel and then rub down or let the snake slither through the P.A.M. treated rag/towel...

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The emails I had with Pro Products were very specific that in no circumstance should you let PAM fumes or liquid come into contact with your snake. I think they may have been suggesting you could treat a towel, let it dry, and THEN let your snake slither through it. I am sure it was taken off their labels because peopel got confused and used a PAM wet towel on their snakes and had damage or deaths.

Either way what you were told contradicts the information I had just recieved from them and also some emails posted from them in other locations on the net.

Anyone reading this I would not use PAM in any way contrary to the manufacturers directions on the current retail can.

Glad to hear your little guy is pulling through.

It might have been a heavy application--PAM directions really should be more specific. It actually only takes a very light spray of PAM, very brief, to do the job.

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Originally Posted by PghBall

Glad to hear your little guy is pulling through.

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Thank you!!! Not only is he pulling through...he is damn near back to 100% at this point. If you guys could have seen how badly he was convulsing you would be as amazed as i am that he is alive today. He had absolutley NO control over his body and was striking at the air while flailing his head everywhere. He remains slightly dehydrated from the whole ordeal, but i've been soaking him every day and he even drank some of the water during his last soak. His will to survive simply amazes and motivates me at the same time. I honestly thought he was going to be dead in a matter of hours, if not minutes. It has been an emotional week. I never thought I could be so attached to a snake i've only had for a short time. Thank you all again for your support. :D

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It might have been a heavy application--PAM directions really should be more specific. It actually only takes a very light spray of PAM, very brief, to do the job.

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I agree. That is the only real complaint I have....is that the directions are fairly vague. I'm not blaming PAM at all for what happened...but if the were more explicit on the can about proper use maybe we can avoid things like this happening in the future.

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Originally Posted by mozbink

The emails I had with Pro Products were very specific that in no circumstance should you let PAM fumes or liquid come into contact with your snake. I think they may have been suggesting you could treat a towel, let it dry, and THEN let your snake slither through it. I am sure it was taken off their labels because peopel got confused and used a PAM wet towel on their snakes and had damage or deaths.

Either way what you were told contradicts the information I had just recieved from them and also some emails posted from them in other locations on the net.

Anyone reading this I would not use PAM in any way contrary to the manufacturers directions on the current retail can.

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That's fine Mozbink!!! The directions are meant to be followed...But people can call and talk to P.A.M. themselves, like we did...I've used P.A.M. the ways they've told me as I've stated with no ill effects...

Sounds like things are going better...I'm happy to hear that...

I just wanted to share my experience I had today with p.a.m... I had 4 young boas that got mites from a roommates snake he brought in...(he's not very keen on quarintine..) anyway, I treated the tub last night, and let it dry for about 4 hours outside. We didn't put down any substrate, and only gave them a water bowl. I checked on them this morning, and same thing: they were all convulsing, twitching, yawning, flipping over, etc. They had no control over their bodies, or bowel movements. We immediately took them out of the treated tub, wrinsed them off and pit them in clean tubs. The twitching slowed down, but is still there. We called p.a.m. and they.said that this is a rare occurrence, but that it is possible for the snakes to get neurological problems. They said that the p.a.m. attaches to the brain stem, and the brain "tells" the heart and lungs to stop working, and that's how it kills the mites. They said the next 48 hours are crucial, and that the snakes may live or die. They said at this point, there is nothing a vet can do, and that we have to wait and see what happens...I'm super angry about it...I may lose 4 boas because of this. They also said that if the snakes live through this, that they may or may not twitch for the rest of their lives... Maybe they should pit something on the side of the can about possible side effects..

A wild thread necromancer appears!

Hope they're okay by the way.

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Originally Posted by wendy8882

IWe called p.a.m.

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What's the number for PAM?

800-726-4968
Errr I mean....
(845) 628-8960

EDIT: Realized at just the last moment that this is an old thread.. but I'd already gone through the effort of a response, and it shall not be wated!!

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Originally Posted by wendy8882

We didn't put down any substrate, and only gave them a water bowl.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Just to double check - you didn't spray P-A-M onto the waterbowl then fill it with water did you?


dr del

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This is what I was also going to ask. But looks like already answered. Anytime we treat with PAM, we spray the tub, and leave the water bowl out entirely for a couple days, in the event that the snake rubs on the chemical, and then goes into it's water dish.

You'd think that it should be safe to keep the water in, but the chemical still works after being dry, and if it is transferred to water, it has the chance of being injested. Therefore, we do not include the water bowl at all, for a couple days. Most of our snakes don't even drink from their water dish, as they get most of their moisture from their food. Unless it's terribly dry or they haven't been eating, they can go a little while without direct access to water.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Reptile Relief has more reported reactions than PAM, used correctly. I've seen bad reactions reported on various forums, though usually with lizards.

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I've never heard of a snake having a bad reaction to Reptile Relief. We have also helped a friend that had close to 400 ball pythons, ranging from hatchlings to adults, that got treated 3 times over the course of a couple weeks, with Reptile relief, with no issues.

Ivermicin works well on mites the organization I work with sometimes uses it when good old elbow grease methods are impractical (lots of snakes infected) P-A-M needs to be used with caution. Its active ingredient is a derivative of a snake poison developed for use against the brown snake on guam. The instructions MUST be followed exactly. I would also recommend caution for inhalation and contact on the part of the human spraying it. It is not good for you either, I'd suggest gloves and spray out side away from pets and kids.

Yes it is an old thread but it has been posted to so old becomes new...

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Originally Posted by wendy8882

I treated the tub last night, and let it dry for about 4 hours outside. We didn't put down any substrate, and only gave them a water bowl.... Maybe they should put something on the side of the can about possible side effects..

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My can of Provent-A-Mite says the following, in the list of warnings:

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Do not use in bare cages without substrate.

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I hope your snakes pull through ok.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Ivermicin works well on mites the organization I work with sometimes uses it when good old elbow grease methods are impractical (lots of snakes infected) P-A-M needs to be used with caution. Its active ingredient is a derivative of a snake poison developed for use against the brown snake on guam. The instructions MUST be followed exactly. I would also recommend caution for inhalation and contact on the part of the human spraying it. It is not good for you either, I'd suggest gloves and spray out side away from pets and kids.

Yes it is an old thread but it has been posted to so old becomes new...

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Some species are sensitive to ivermectin. Drymarchon are a prime example.

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Originally Posted by wendy8882

They said the next 48 hours are crucial, and that the snakes may live or die. They said at this point, there is nothing a vet can do, and that we have to wait and see what happens....

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I disagree that there is nothing a vet can do. When I had problems with PAM, the vet gave me a muscle relaxant called Methocarbamol (Robaxin) to ease his seizures. I have to give this to him orally 4 times per day. He also said to give him LOTS of warm baths to rehydrate him and to soothe his muscles. It worked VERY well and he was symptom free within 48 hours.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Some species are sensitive to ivermectin. Drymarchon are a prime example.

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Thanks skip I didn't know that. All the rescues we get go to the vet as soon as they arrive (free exam) I have seen mites only on rescues, and 90% of the rescues are royals and boas with an odd corn here and there. We 95% of the time the snakes have so many issues that we try to avoid all chemical treatments. (like the Boa found in an empty apartment with no power for 20 days) Elbow grease is my tool of choice I work with heavy duty chemicals I don't want them in my house if I can avoid it.

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Originally Posted by mackynz

A wild thread necromancer appears!

Hope they're okay by the way.

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Beat me to it. I think Thread Necromancer should be a title that people can earn for their avatar.