If it's ok to...

If people here say its ok to breed spiders, even if they all apparently wobble,
Then would it be ethical for me to selective breed for maximum wobbling?

Thanks
Sam

I would personally say no, but I stayed away from spiders because I didn't want any wobble. Others will give their opinions for you as well.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

If people here say its ok to breed spiders, even if they all apparently wobble,
Then would it be ethical for me to selective breed for maximum wobbling?

Thanks
Sam

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Ethical? Depends on your own ethics.

I don't see the point of breeding to enhance a trait that is not conducive to benefiting the animal.

If you do that, just be aware that most people, like the person that responded before me, are not interested in a super wobbly animals.

You will have a hard time moving/housing the babies that you are breeding for.

Can't be done. The amount of wobble is a toss up, but I am assuming this thread is more about trying to prove a point then a serious idea.

Purebred dogs can have a lot of health problems.

•Crippling bone and joint disorders
•Eye diseases that cause reduced sight or total blindness
•Heart diseases that drastically shorten a dog's life
•Hormonal and endocrine system diseases like hypothyroidism and diabetes
•Seizure disorders such as epilepsy
•Skin diseases that cause frantic itching
•Digestive disorders that cause chronic diarrhea and vomiting
•Kidney and liver diseases
•Blood-clotting diseases
•Cancer -- the number-one killer of many, many breeds

Over 300 genetic health problems occur in dogs -- all kinds of dogs, purebred, crossbred, and mixed -- but the risk of these health problems occurring in a purebred dog is higher than in a crossbreed or mixed breed.

Humans have been selectively breeding animals to produce certain traits or visual looks for millenia, in spite of the genetic probems that result from breeding closely related animals.

It is estimated that 50% of German shepards will develop hip displasia, but the breed has many redeeming qualities that make them useful to humans, and few would argue that German shepards don't enjoy thier lives. Spiders have a wobble, but they eat, breed, shed, and don't seem to suffer in any way.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

I don't see the point of breeding to enhance a trait that is not conducive to benefiting the animal.

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What about hairless cats and the like? We breed for alot of traits that do not benefit the animal.

I think you might be onto something

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Can't be done. The amount of wobble is a toss up, but I am assuming this thread is more about trying to prove a point then a serious idea.

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even if it would be possible, I wouldn't see any sense in it! with cats and dogs we are accepting genetical health problems, in order to have other attitudes enlarged, but no one would consider the wobbling as interesting for us, or an argument for buying a spider.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

What about hairless cats and the like? We breed for alot of traits that do not benefit the animal.

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Well, you say "We" as if I am a part of that group.

I am not.

And, people do that only to sell to people that like that particular trait.

In Spiders, I don't see people running out and buying the most wobbly animals out there cause its cute.

And I agree with John and Trevor. As much as you may want to do it, Spider wobbles seem to be a crap shoot. You get it sometimes from some animals. It's never a guarantee that wobblers produce wobblers, etc.

So there you go.

Is the OP seriously trying to start a discussion about breeding FOR wobbles? I thought it was meant as a dig on spiders and those who breed them.

Nobody would breed for wobbles, thats just ridiculous. Many of us breed spiders or spider combos because we find them beautiful and don't see the wobbles as something that causes any physical pain or discomfort to the animal in any way.

He's ineffectively and unnecessarily trying to be confrontational. The consensus between hobbyists is clearly that it sucks that Spiders wobble, but that even in most severe cases it doesn't prevent them from leading a "normal Ball-Python-life." No one wants wobble to exist, so don't be absurd. While it's clearly not ideal, wobble does not seem to prevent them from feeding, growing, and breeding normally, and with the reality that those three things are the ultimate goals of all living things, it doesn't seem cruel to breed Spiders. The thing with reptiles is--stress kills. If the wobble was stressful for the animal, the prolonged stress would lead to premature death, as simple as that. There are no indicators that Spiders are stressed more than any other Ball, and in a vast majority of cases they have no trouble breeding, feeding, or growing and developing properly; please don't make out people who breed Spiders as this ethically crippled monsters. If you want to have a discussion on the subject, there are better, less snarky ways to go about it, and quite frankly your facetious approach isn't appreciated. On the other hand, if you were asking this question from a straight forward and honest place, I would say that although it's impossible to line breed for more or less wobbles, if it were theoretically possible, it would be unethical to do so. The more genetically divergent a snake is, disregarding phenotypical divergence involved with pattern and color, the greater the chance the animal will not be able to carry out it's biological goals stress-free. It would thus be unethical to line-breed for what could develop into a potentially harmful genetic trait. I would like to reiterate though that with the wobble trait, such line breeding is impossible, so at best your question/argument is hypothetical.

Cheers,
-Matt

I don't get why you would want to breed an animal to increase their health problems! A spider that has too much wobble are known to not eat and die shorlty after hatching!

Hairless cats were not selectively bred to be hairless. It's a natural mutation that happens with cats, they are know as Sphynx cats now. They were selectively breed to have a larger gene pool and less genetic problems (caused by a very small gene pool) by back crossing with "normal" cats and back to Sphynx cats over several decades.

The Mexican hairless dog is a ~3,000 year old breed that is believed to be hairless because of survival advantages, not because people bred them to hairless for their own pleasure. I'm not sure people were doing that 3,000 years ago. It wasn't like breeding today, selling muts for thousands of dollars.

As for your spider question, as others have said, you can breed a horribly wobbled spider and get near perfect babies. It's a flip of the coin as to what you are going to get.

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Originally Posted by TheReptileEnthusiast

I thought it was meant as a dig on spiders and those who breed them.

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Yeah, I thought it was obvious that it was an anti spider post and not a serious question, but some people didn't catch that I guess.

Well seriously, it could be marketed.

Say i sell my very own line of "loop de loop" ball pythons to pet shops and people buy in. People could possibly like that quirky behavior.

So if its apparently ok to breed spiders despite the wobble, then would that be ok to do?

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Originally Posted by seeya205

I don't get why you would want to breed an animal to increase their health problems! A spider that has too much wobble are known to not eat and die shorlty after hatching!

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So then i dont get it... Why do people breed spiders at all then?

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

As for your spider question, as others have said, you can breed a horribly wobbled spider and get near perfect babies. It's a flip of the coin as to what you are going to get.

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Honestly i would like to know if this is actually true or if it is something breeders say to keep business running. Has anyone tried to breed extreme wobble x extreme wobble and kept the babies forever to see if they develop a wobble? The statements about how you "just cant do it" seem fabricated and unjustified.

Edit:
Sorry slitherin, im not picking on you, just putting that out there to anyone who posted something similar in the thread.

Thanks
Sam

Truthfully, I'd bet there would be a market for them.

Look at those pitiful creatures they call "twisty cats" They are deliberately bred with horrible birth defects and crippling, and people pay outrageous sums for them because it's a novelty, they can have a cat the neighbors don't have.

Personally, I think it is disgusting and wrong to purposefully breed a deformed or impaired animal just to have a novelty pet. A spider ball with extremely severe wobble would be just that, a novelty. Something to show off to people, " Hey, look at my cool snake, it's all messed up!"

After a while, when the reality of how hard it would be to properly care for such an animal sets in, they'll loose all interest in it. Since there would be minimal market for a snake like that, it would likely then either be neglected to death, or even released to die in the wild.

Why do you think people do that with giant pythons? They want a novelty pet, something with shock value. When the snake gets too big to control, it's left to die of neglect or released and left to fend for itself. That is why you see so many media clips about " huge dangerous snakes" on the loose.

So yes, while I could see some people buying a spider with a severe wobble for the novelty, I firmly believe it is a bad idea, and to perpetuate people buying novelty animals they can't properly care for makes you irresponsible.

Gale

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Honestly i would like to know if this is actually true or if it is something breeders say to keep business running. Has anyone tried to breed extreme wobble x extreme wobble and kept the babies forever to see if they develop a wobble? The statements about how you "just cant do it" seem fabricated and unjustified.

Thanks
Sam

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Goodness--YES, it actually IS true. Why try to make out everyone who breeds Ball Pythons and works with Spiders to be money hungry, deceitful people? A Spider goes for under $200 these days, hardly enough to make it this super-valuable "product" worthy of some snake conspiracy. First of all, there are almost NO people out there doing Spider to Spider breedings, as the homozygous form is either lethal, or unproven. So your argument is pointless. Secondly, it has been proven by many people, not just big breeders, that wobble is not something predictable, or line-breedable. Do you really think everyone who has bred a wobbly Spider and gotten wobble-free Spiders, or everyone who has bred a wobble-free Spider and gotten Spiders with sever wobble is lying about their results? I mean EVERYONE, in a big Spider wobble conspiracy to 'keep business running?' Of course not! The notion is unrealistic and silly. As I stated in my last post, your facetious approach is unwarranted, unnecessary, and ineffective. If you have a genuine concern, why not be straight forward and mature about it? It would help you stimulate the right kind of conversation, and would allow people take you more seriously.

Cheers,
-Matt

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"As for your spider question, as others have said, you can breed a horribly wobbled spider and get near perfect babies"

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I beg to differ; ALL spiders wobble.
Whether they do loopdy-loops right out of the egg, or if it takes a year to exhibit mild symptoms, they all do it eventually.
Every single last one of them.

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Originally Posted by mykee

I beg to differ; ALL spiders wobble.
Whether they do loopdy-loops right out of the egg, or if it takes a year to exhibit mild symptoms, they all do it eventually.
Every single last one of them.

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He did say NEAR perfect.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Well seriously, it could be marketed.

Say i sell my very own line of "loop de loop" ball pythons to pet shops and people buy in. People could possibly like that quirky behavior.

So if its apparently ok to breed spiders despite the wobble, then would that be ok to do?

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I'm a bit confused what your "agenda" is in starting this. Is it to make a stand that spiders shouldn't be bred at all? An all or nothing thing?

Bottom line - either you enjoy the spider morph and understand that all spiders will have a wobble, or you don't. If it's not for you - then cool - don't get them.

I happen to love the spider gene, I have four of them in my collection - two males and two females. All four are mild wobblers, all four eat, poop and shed and the one old enough to breed, breeds.

It's pretty clear from your posts that a spider likely isn't a good choice for your collection.

We don't know whether spiders can be line bred for more or less wobble.

What we know is that the trait is tied directly to the spider mutation, and spiders that do not appear to wobble will produce offspring that do, to various degrees--and spiders with a bad wobble can produce offspring with very little wobble.

Now, every once in a blue moon, a spider is born that is such a 'train wreck' that you have to put the food in its mouth for it to eat, because it falls all over itself and can't find it. This is rare, but happens. It's an example of what happens when the snake has a very extreme wobble.

In its most common form, the spider wobble is harmless. You certainly would not want to breed spiders to increase the wobble, because if you succeeded in increasing it, then a trait that is largely harmless would turn into one that is detrimental to their survival. Creating train wrecks would be a bad thing.

Most people try to breed for minimal wobble. The desirable spiders in breeding programs are those with little to no noticeable wobble. There are some who feel that, given time, the trait can be minimized, even if it cannot be eliminated. Time will tell.

There are also some people who simply ignore the wobble, and breed for pretty. They produce lots of healthy spiders as well.

So again, if your question is serious--too much wobble has proven to be detrimental to the snakes, so you would not want to try to make the wobble more extreme than it already is.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm a bit confused what your "agenda" is in starting this. Is it to make a stand that spiders shouldn't be bred at all? An all or nothing thing?

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I dont have an agenda, but i did want to just point out an ethical question to people who breed spiders. I am kind of new to these morphs.

I mean, if a trainwreck wobble can come out of no where, and people admit that a wobble is unfavorable, why breed them in the first place? Its like having everyone board the titanic knowing that it will probably sink, just because you want to keep ticket profits.

I think you just said it yourself.....your new

Get to reading around and learn more about the wobble

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

I dont have an agenda, but i did want to just point out an ethical question to people who breed spiders. I am kind of new to these morphs.

I mean, if a trainwreck wobble can come out of no where, and people admit that a wobble is unfavorable, why breed them in the first place? Its like having everyone board the titanic knowing that it will probably sink, just because you want to keep ticket profits.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

I dont have an agenda, but i did want to just point out an ethical question to people who breed spiders. I am kind of new to these morphs.

I mean, if a trainwreck wobble can come out of no where, and people admit that a wobble is unfavorable, why breed them in the first place? Its like having everyone board the titanic knowing that it will probably sink, just because you want to keep ticket profits.

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Thats like saying a couple who has a 1 in a 1000 chance of producing a down syndrome baby shouldn't have kids.

Just because something might happen doesn't mean you shouldn't try for all the healthy offspring that will be much more likely to result from breeding a spider. I have a spider male in my collection. I plan on getting a female in the near future. My male has a slight wobble but he eats like a machine and is otherwise, normal. I will breed him despite his wobble. Now, if I get hatchling after hatchling after hatchling who are all trainwrecks, then I would no longer breed him.

I did all the viewing and reading i need to do. Here is what i got from it:


Wobble is not good, but people breed spiders anyways.
Just look at this thread and try to say the above is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Thats like saying a couple who has a 1 in a 1000 chance of producing a down syndrome baby shouldn't have kids.

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No it's like saying a couple who has a 100 percent chance of having a kid with even a slight disorder, will still have one.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

I dont have an agenda, but i did want to just point out an ethical question to people who breed spiders. I am kind of new to these morphs.

I mean, if a trainwreck wobble can come out of no where, and people admit that a wobble is unfavorable, why breed them in the first place? Its like having everyone board the titanic knowing that it will probably sink, just because you want to keep ticket profits.

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If you don't like it than you don't have to breed them. The spider wobble bothers me a lot. I have decided not to work with spiders because of it. It's a tough choice, especially after seeing the lavender spider and a few other cool combos. I don't look down on or try to judge anyone that thinks differently though. It's up to each breeder to decide what he/she wants to work with. I don't think it is my place to try to tell others what to do.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

No it's like saying a couple who has a 100 percent chance of having a kid with even a slight disorder, will still have one.

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I was referring to the trainwrecked spider. The thing is, a wobble isn't necessarily bad. In mild cases it doesn't stop the snake from eating, pooping, moving around the enclosure, or any other normal behavior.

If you don't like the spider wobble or the spider gene, then don't own or breed them. Simple as that. I don't breed snakes for the money, so you can't use that argument on me. I will breed my spiders because I like the morph and the morph possibilities.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

If you don't like it than you don't have to breed them. The spider wobble bothers me a lot. I have decided not to work with spiders because of it. It's a tough choice, especially after seeing the lavender spider and a few other cool combos. I don't look down on or try to judge anyone that thinks differently though. It's up to each breeder to decide what he/she wants to work with. I don't think it is my place to try to tell others what to do.

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This is how i feel. Good point.

Just because i brought up a legitimate question to provoke thought does not mean i have any type of agenda. You know? I do see a double standard however, if you subscribe to breeding spiders and see an issue with my first post.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I don't breed snakes for the money, so you can't use that argument on me. I will breed my spiders because I like the morph and the morph possibilities.

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The first argument still applies to you however. If you enjoy the morph and all of its qualities, including the guaranteed wobble, then why have an issue with me breeding for the wobble quality if i enjoy it?

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

The first argument still applies to you however. If you enjoy the morph and all of its qualities, including the guaranteed wobble, then why have an issue with me breeding for the wobble quality if i enjoy it?

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Did I say I had an issue? While I personally would not do it, or purchase such an animal, I would not stop someone else from doing it, unless the resulting animals were obviously suffering (not eating, unable to move around without help)

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

The first argument still applies to you however. If you enjoy the morph and all of its qualities, including the guaranteed wobble, then why have an issue with me breeding for the wobble quality if i enjoy it?

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Sorry, I am not buying that you were actually considering trying to breed spiders for the maximum amount of wobble. The point of this thread is pretty clear. Especially after reading your followup posts. Also, you do seem to be judging people who breed spiders negatively in your replies.

And if anything, loopy spiders would help spread the word to people who are unaware of the spider wobble.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Honestly i would like to know if this is actually true or if it is something breeders say to keep business running. Has anyone tried to breed extreme wobble x extreme wobble and kept the babies forever to see if they develop a wobble? The statements about how you "just cant do it" seem fabricated and unjustified.

Thanks
Sam

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What experience do you have to make you believe your that the statements are "fabricated and unjustified" ?

My experience says that the Spider wobble is completely random.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

\Also, you do seem to be judging people who breed spiders negatively in your replies.

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The only people who I would disagree with would be those who breed spiders and have an issue with breeding for wobble, and still i am not judging them silly.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

And if anything, loopy spiders would help spread the word to people who are unaware of the spider wobble.

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Most people do not know about the spider wobble but creating a "super loopy spider" that is intended to scare people away from the morph isn't going to work. The fact is, the majority of spiders live normal lives. There is no reason to stop breeding them just because they are a little different. If you don't like them, don't breed them. It really is just that simple.

Of course, you may be on here just to pick fights because you are basically insulting anyone who works with this morph.

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

What experience do you have

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My only experience is a natural critical thinking mindset, i guess.
As a first generation immigrant, we were always taught to question someone intent when they are taking your money, thats all. :)

Edit:
Woah, btw, I didnt notice who posted that. I am new to ball pythons but I saw your vids online and I really like your animals and tips dude!

I have seen quite a few major wobbles being sold for next to nothing (Like around $100). Where is the market for them?

Thats not his point

His point is to bash people for breeding a morph of these snakes that has a wobble

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I have seen quite a few major wobbles being sold for next to nothing (Like around $100). Where is the market for them?

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

And if anything, loopy spiders would help spread the word to people who are unaware of the spider wobble.

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:rolleye2: Are you seriously getting into breeding because with that kind of logic and statement it's gonna be hard for anyone to take you seriously :rolleyes:

People are aware of wobble is not a secret and if they are not all I can say is that before purchasing an animal (any animal) you do some research prior to acquiring the said animal.

If there are morphs that make YOU uncomfortable and that you do not wish to work with, than it’s simple don’t buy them, and don’t breed them.

Spiders are not for everyone just like some other morphs are not for everyone either.

There is a morph that I chose not to work due to issues as well however the difference is that unlike you I do not look down on people who chose to do so that specific morph is just not for me.

The bottom line as a buyer or future breeder (no idea what your level is) is to be knowledgeable about what you plan on buying and/or breeding and decide if that animal is right for YOU.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Well seriously, it could be marketed.

Say i sell my very own line of "loop de loop" ball pythons to pet shops and people buy in. People could possibly like that quirky behavior.

So if its apparently ok to breed spiders despite the wobble, then would that be ok to do?

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Sorry. Should have quoted. But, I was finding a number of replies saying there could be a market for them.

Personally I'm not a fan of spiders, however if I were to get one it would be from a reputable dealer, it would probably be a designer morph, and I'd be looking for minimum wobble. Any offspring with minimum wobble would get kept for breeding/sold, the ones with more wobble would just get kept as my own pets. The reason would be to breed for minimum wobble, only release minimum wobble, and hope that in a few generations the wobble would get taken out.

Its like Orange Ghosts and the kinking, it's the reason I wouldnt want to work with them, but from a reputable dealer and from a line with minimal kinking, yeah maybe, if it were a designer morph.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Its like Orange Ghosts and the kinking, it's the reason I wouldnt want to work with them, but from a reputable dealer and from a line with minimal kinking, yeah maybe, if it were a designer morph.

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I think you mean caramels. Ghosts do not have kinking problems.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Personally I'm not a fan of spiders, however if I were to get one it would be from a reputable dealer, it would probably be a designer morph, and I'd be looking for minimum wobble. Any offspring with minimum wobble would get kept for breeding/sold, the ones with more wobble would just get kept as my own pets. The reason would be to breed for minimum wobble, only release minimum wobble, and hope that in a few generations the wobble would get taken out.

Its like Orange Ghosts and the kinking, it's the reason I wouldnt want to work with them, but from a reputable dealer and from a line with minimal kinking, yeah maybe, if it were a designer morph.

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Yes, but as of right now, we are not 100% certain either way on how the wobble is tied to the spider gene. All we DO know is that every single spider has a wobble of some degree and it seems random where on the scale it sits. If what is causing the wobble is tied to the spider gene, you will never breed it out of the morph.

Right, right. I always mix the two up, thanks. Yeah the Caramels.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Yes, but as of right now, we are not 100% certain either way on how the wobble is tied to the spider gene. All we DO know is that every single spider has a wobble of some degree and it seems random where on the scale it sits. If what is causing the wobble is tied to the spider gene, you will never breed it out of the morph.

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By only selectively breeding the animals with the least wobble, whether it is the gene itself or not, at least in time it may prove not to be random, and it wouldnt much matter if the only ones you bred/sold had little wobble. It would be artificial selection, maybe not culling the ones with high wobble, but definitely not letting them breed.

I thought I made a post on this yesterday, but apparently it didn't go through.

A scant few spiders are born as 'train wrecks'--the wobble is so bad they have difficulties that prevent them from living normally. They can usually be assisted--you have to put the food in their mouth, for example, because they are too uncoordinated to find it on their own.
"Train wreck' spiders are fairly rare. Most spiders are perfectly capable of eating, breeding, and living normal lives, and they appear to be perfectly happy to do so. They show no signs of stress from their condition.

So, why not breed for increased wobble? Because increased wobble results in a snake that cannot care for itself--a 'train wreck'. Obviously you do not deliberately select for an animal like that. You don't breed your Persians with faces so short they can't breathe, and you don't breed your miniature horses with legs so short they can't bend at the knee. Extremes can be BAD for the animal.

People ARE attempting, in a fairly relaxed fashion, to select for reduced wobble in spiders. There is no way of knowing whether or not this will be successful in the long run. It's possible that selective breeding could eliminate or reduce the incidence of severe wobble over time, we'll just have to wait and see.

I know you're were just trying to instigate, but I figured I would give you a rational reason why you shouldn't be breeding for more wobble in spiders (if it were even possible to do so, which is definitely not certain).

As for the spider mutation itself...it has a quirk. No one is certain whether the quirk is the result of a neurological problem, or an inner ear problem.

Examples of animals that are commonly bred for odd traits like this include waltzing mice, and fainting goats.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

So, why not breed for increased wobble? Because increased wobble results in a snake that cannot care for itself--a 'train wreck'. Obviously you do not deliberately select for an animal like that. You don't breed your Persians with faces so short they can't breathe, and you don't breed your miniature horses with legs so short they can't bend at the knee. Extremes can be BAD for the animal.

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The OP was trying to "provoke thought" which online often gets referred to as trolling (it really depends on how you look at it). From what I've glanced at though the topic the OP wouldnt want to have/breed a spider because of the wobble, and this "provoking of thought" seems to be targeted at people who do breed spiders and seemingly trying to convince them away from it.

So the topic isnt seriously suggesting that people breed for wobble, but trying to question the logic behind breeding an animal with a known issue.

Ultimately the reason people do work with them is because we like the way they look and the wobble doesnt often lead to some sort of extreme issue in the animal. The reason some people wont work with them is because they dont want to deal with the known issue.

EDIT
My guess is that most people ask themselves if they really should work ith certain animals before they do. I know I've run this through my head for Caramels (which failed, especially now that ultramels are around), spiders, and womas (as it turns out it's probably just the HG line that has the ethical conundrum). I think everyone who has any intent on breeding an animal questions whether or not they should do it (well at least those of us actually capable of higher level reasoning would), and certain cases (spiders/hg womas/caramels) require a bit more thought. But ultimately after thinking it through some people come to one side or another on it, and I think a lot of people love the look of spiders and as such wouldnt give up on them.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

My only experience is a natural critical thinking mindset, i guess.
As a first generation immigrant, we were always taught to question someone intent when they are taking your money, thats all. :)

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You're not questioning intent here, as there is clearly no malicious intent involved with Spider breeding--you're just downing on people who breed Spiders in an unnecessary, button-pushing kind of way. If you were staying open minded you'd respond to some of the more well presented arguments or responses like WingedWolfPsion's. Your choice to avoid responding to her, or even to myself, makes it seem like you're doing so because it allows you to banter more.

Again, no one would have a problem with you posting, "Hey, it seems like the Spider trait is plagued by wobble. Isn't it not worth it to breed them if we know they will have some genetic flaw? It seems cruel to me." Instead, you choose to present your argument as a joke, or in a facetious manner.

I can't accept that you are simply questioning intent, as it's clear that that isn't your true goal here. Just for perspective, I have never bred Spiders, so any disagreement I have here is not fueled by some want to continue making money on the morph. I also don't understand how you are unable to discern between breeding Spiders under normal circumstances, which would produce in an outstanding percentage of cases completely happy, functional snakes, and line breeding for train-wreck wobbles, which would lead to an outstanding number of unhappy, dysfunctional snakes. If it were possible to predict, which others with MUCH more experience than you have established it is not, it would clearly be wrong to breed to enhance or create a deleterious genetic defect. But, as it has been established, the wobble associated with the Spider mutation in a great majority of cases is in no way a devastating or deleterious genetic defect. Like I've already stated in a previously ignored post, stress kills reptiles. If Spiders with slight or moderate wobbles, even those with extreme wobbles in certain cases were stressed, they would be dying premature deaths. If a great majority of Spiders can eat, breed, and grow stress-free, there doesn't seem to be much meat behind looking down on those who choose to do so. If you want to point out an issue you have, and want people to take you and your opinion seriously, it would help if you presented your opinion in a mature, honest, and professional way. Otherwise, as has been the case so far in your thread, it just seems like you're being malicious and negatively provocative.

Cheers,
-Matt