If it's ok to...

[Matt K]

He's ineffectively and unnecessarily trying to be confrontational. The consensus between hobbyists is clearly that it sucks that Spiders wobble, but that even in most severe cases it doesn't prevent them from leading a "normal Ball-Python-life." No one wants wobble to exist, so don't be absurd. While it's clearly not ideal, wobble does not seem to prevent them from feeding, growing, and breeding normally, and with the reality that those three things are the ultimate goals of all living things, it doesn't seem cruel to breed Spiders. The thing with reptiles is--stress kills. If the wobble was stressful for the animal, the prolonged stress would lead to premature death, as simple as that. There are no indicators that Spiders are stressed more than any other Ball, and in a vast majority of cases they have no trouble breeding, feeding, or growing and developing properly; please don't make out people who breed Spiders as this ethically crippled monsters. If you want to have a discussion on the subject, there are better, less snarky ways to go about it, and quite frankly your facetious approach isn't appreciated. On the other hand, if you were asking this question from a straight forward and honest place, I would say that although it's impossible to line breed for more or less wobbles, if it were theoretically possible, it would be unethical to do so. The more genetically divergent a snake is, disregarding phenotypical divergence involved with pattern and color, the greater the chance the animal will not be able to carry out it's biological goals stress-free. It would thus be unethical to line-breed for what could develop into a potentially harmful genetic trait. I would like to reiterate though that with the wobble trait, such line breeding is impossible, so at best your question/argument is hypothetical.

Cheers,
-Matt

[seeya205]

I don't get why you would want to breed an animal to increase their health problems! A spider that has too much wobble are known to not eat and die shorlty after hatching!

[SlitherinSisters]

Hairless cats were not selectively bred to be hairless. It's a natural mutation that happens with cats, they are know as Sphynx cats now. They were selectively breed to have a larger gene pool and less genetic problems (caused by a very small gene pool) by back crossing with "normal" cats and back to Sphynx cats over several decades.

The Mexican hairless dog is a ~3,000 year old breed that is believed to be hairless because of survival advantages, not because people bred them to hairless for their own pleasure. I'm not sure people were doing that 3,000 years ago. It wasn't like breeding today, selling muts for thousands of dollars.

As for your spider question, as others have said, you can breed a horribly wobbled spider and get near perfect babies. It's a flip of the coin as to what you are going to get.

[Nocturnal]

I thought it was meant as a dig on spiders and those who breed them.

Yeah, I thought it was obvious that it was an anti spider post and not a serious question, but some people didn't catch that I guess.

[SK_Exotics]

Well seriously, it could be marketed.

Say i sell my very own line of "loop de loop" ball pythons to pet shops and people buy in. People could possibly like that quirky behavior.

So if its apparently ok to breed spiders despite the wobble, then would that be ok to do?

[SK_Exotics]

I don't get why you would want to breed an animal to increase their health problems! A spider that has too much wobble are known to not eat and die shorlty after hatching!

So then i dont get it... Why do people breed spiders at all then?

[SK_Exotics]

As for your spider question, as others have said, you can breed a horribly wobbled spider and get near perfect babies. It's a flip of the coin as to what you are going to get.

Honestly i would like to know if this is actually true or if it is something breeders say to keep business running. Has anyone tried to breed extreme wobble x extreme wobble and kept the babies forever to see if they develop a wobble? The statements about how you "just cant do it" seem fabricated and unjustified.

Edit:
Sorry slitherin, im not picking on you, just putting that out there to anyone who posted something similar in the thread.

Thanks
Sam

[angllady2]

Truthfully, I'd bet there would be a market for them.

Look at those pitiful creatures they call "twisty cats" They are deliberately bred with horrible birth defects and crippling, and people pay outrageous sums for them because it's a novelty, they can have a cat the neighbors don't have.

Personally, I think it is disgusting and wrong to purposefully breed a deformed or impaired animal just to have a novelty pet. A spider ball with extremely severe wobble would be just that, a novelty. Something to show off to people, " Hey, look at my cool snake, it's all messed up!"

After a while, when the reality of how hard it would be to properly care for such an animal sets in, they'll loose all interest in it. Since there would be minimal market for a snake like that, it would likely then either be neglected to death, or even released to die in the wild.

Why do you think people do that with giant pythons? They want a novelty pet, something with shock value. When the snake gets too big to control, it's left to die of neglect or released and left to fend for itself. That is why you see so many media clips about " huge dangerous snakes" on the loose.

So yes, while I could see some people buying a spider with a severe wobble for the novelty, I firmly believe it is a bad idea, and to perpetuate people buying novelty animals they can't properly care for makes you irresponsible.

Gale

[Matt K]

Honestly i would like to know if this is actually true or if it is something breeders say to keep business running. Has anyone tried to breed extreme wobble x extreme wobble and kept the babies forever to see if they develop a wobble? The statements about how you "just cant do it" seem fabricated and unjustified.

Thanks
Sam

Goodness--YES, it actually IS true. Why try to make out everyone who breeds Ball Pythons and works with Spiders to be money hungry, deceitful people? A Spider goes for under $200 these days, hardly enough to make it this super-valuable "product" worthy of some snake conspiracy. First of all, there are almost NO people out there doing Spider to Spider breedings, as the homozygous form is either lethal, or unproven. So your argument is pointless. Secondly, it has been proven by many people, not just big breeders, that wobble is not something predictable, or line-breedable. Do you really think everyone who has bred a wobbly Spider and gotten wobble-free Spiders, or everyone who has bred a wobble-free Spider and gotten Spiders with sever wobble is lying about their results? I mean EVERYONE, in a big Spider wobble conspiracy to 'keep business running?' Of course not! The notion is unrealistic and silly. As I stated in my last post, your facetious approach is unwarranted, unnecessary, and ineffective. If you have a genuine concern, why not be straight forward and mature about it? It would help you stimulate the right kind of conversation, and would allow people take you more seriously.

Cheers,
-Matt

[mykee]

"As for your spider question, as others have said, you can breed a horribly wobbled spider and get near perfect babies"

I beg to differ; ALL spiders wobble.
Whether they do loopdy-loops right out of the egg, or if it takes a year to exhibit mild symptoms, they all do it eventually.
Every single last one of them.