So i just found out...

...that my new spider baby has the 'wobbles'. I was checking her out, and handling her and i noticed some weird movement. When she was in her tub she was up right and her head was going every which way, and also whenever something would touch her head she would freak out into a weird position i never seen before. I thought it might have been ibd at first but symptoms aren't that severe.

So i did some research and found out that spiders carry a common issue of the wobbles. It sucks and i was sort of upset with the breeder who sold her to me, but i already love her. People who have spiders with this problem say its not too much of a issue but still, i feel like somethings wrong or shes not healthy.

So to those who want a spider, do your research...i wish i did.
I don't really know how to feel about this? or what i should do to make it better. Maybe i'm just thinking about it too much. :P

...because of all this, i now choose to call her Wubbles. :)

Do any of you out there share this problem? How are your snakes coming along?

Well I hate to hear that about Wubbles! The good thing is that I think they can sometimes grow out of having the wobbles. I've never had a spider with the wobbles (and I'm thankful for that), but I do belive SOMETIMES its gets better with age. Probably not 100% though. Good luck. Your a good snake mommy!!:)

As long as she can eat, it's not a problem. Nothing you can do about it, but it doesn't seem to stop them from leading a normal, snakey life. My Spider has it very mildly so far, and I know how you feel, but it's definately a condition that they can live with.

Well... ALL spiders have the wobble. It comes with the spider gene. Every single spider is affected at different degrees. The ones that dont realy show as babies could become worse as they age, and the ones that are realy bad as babies could grow out of it some what.

As long as it can eat by it self and carry a normal, healthy life, it is nothing to worry about. From another perspective, spiders are said to be the best feeders and breeders.

I'm confused...what is wrong with your snake and why are you upset? Spiders wobble. It's not a big deal and there's nothing to be done about it.

Try not to worry too bad. Alot of the time if they show it early on like that they may get better with age. Like the last post said, as long as she can eat ok then its just something else you can love about her. Its a spider thing. They all have it. My bumblebee has a very mild head bob once in awhile when its feeding time and she gets excited. I held a male spider last year that I almost bought but I decided not to because he had the most sever case I had ever seen. I almost couldnt hold him at all. He flipped, flailed, twisted, corkscrewed, constantly. It was like he was trying to throw his self out of my hands. He couldnt keep his head or upper body upright at all. It was very bad. Yours sounds typical and not so bad so dont worry too much. It could be much worse.

My bee had a wobble...still does occasionally. Bee...part spider. Anyways....he has grown out of it mostly. It only happens when he is nervous. As they get stronger it seems to get less and less....at least with mine. It is what it is...they wobble.....some less some more. There are TONS of debates on here in regards to it. Not a biggie....adds to their personality. :rolleyes:

Try not to look at it like a "problem" its more of a quirk that the morph carries. Aslo there are things that can set the wobble off, things like: stress, feeding, shipping, handeling to much, changes in their enviroment ect. So with that said the breeder may not have seen any wobble and then in the process of moving homes and adjusting it got triggered.. I've seen them grow out of it and I've seen shipping set it off so their is no predicting it..

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

I'm confused...what is wrong with your snake and why are you upset? Spiders wobble. It's not a big deal and there's nothing to be done about it.

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she has every right to be upset, it sounds like it was (as usual) kept 'hush-hush' to a newbie until a sale was made.


Basically spiders have this neurological problem, it is upto you to decide weather you think it's "fine" like everyone says.

We personally chose not to work with (ie reproduce) the spider gene because of this flaw. It has however become commonly accepted because people think spiders are pretty and (like they have all said) spiders seem to manage ok (eat, poo, breed etc)

To say it is not a big deal is wrong, I imagine it IS a big deal when you drop hundreds of dollars on your first ever ball morph only to find out about a well known neurological issue AFTER the purchase. You only say it's normal/accpetable because the breeders that are trying to sell these snakes say it is. Personally, just because they eat and shed (etc), it's no reason to class is as normal or acceptable for a ball python. Would you be happy with a normal that behaved like that?

The "spider wobble" is judged acceptable simply because it doesn't kill them, and because lots of breeders who invested $20-30 GRAND on their first spiders back in the late 90s wanted it to be a non issue and make their investments back.

If people bred mammals with such obvious defects they would be slated.

To just gloss it over to someone new to the hobby as "normal" and basically tell them to stop being upset is a little closed minded IMO.

I would also suggest that someone with an attitude like this has never seen a spider with a real bad case of wither the wobbles or 'corkscrewing'. The worst ones are truly heartbreaking.

What will become "normal" and "acceptable" next? Will the up and coming breeders of ball morphs be telling people it's ok to breed kinked caramels and caramel combos? That it's ok to breed a super cinnamon males with a duck billed face and a kink in it's spine like a golf club?

If the spider gene was discovered in the wild NOW with how the hobby is instead of being found right "back in the day" when the ball morph market was nuts would people still ignore this flaw? or would they say "we have so many other amazing looking morphs we'd prefer not to buy one that can't even tell which way is the correct way up". IMO if the spider gene was WC NOW, today, any responsible breeder would say "well this thing looks great, and it's genetic but if I can't fix this issue with new blood or outbreeding i'll leave it alone."

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Originally Posted by mason

she has every right to be upset, it sounds like it was (as usual) kept 'hush-hush' to a newbie until a sale was made.

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Or perhaps the breeder figured the buyer did some research like we all should when spending loads of money on a pet or breeder and knew about the wobble

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Basically spiders have this neurological problem, it is upto you to decide weather you think it's "fine" like everyone says.

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There is no evidence to prove or disprove this its simply speculation

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We personally chose not to work with (ie reproduce) the spider gene because of this flaw. It has however become commonly accepted because people think spiders are pretty and (like they have all said) spiders seem to manage ok (eat, poo, breed etc)

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Every morph you work with is "Flawed" that's what makes them different from normals..It's hypercritical to say that you except every other genetic flaw in the hobby but this one. Then talk poorly about it simply because you don't like it.

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To say it is not a big deal is wrong, I imagine it IS a big deal when you drop hundreds of dollars on your first ever ball morph only to find out about a well known neurological issue AFTER the purchase. You only say it's normal/acceptable because the breeders that are trying to sell these snakes say it is. Personally, just because they eat and shed (etc), it's no reason to class is as normal or acceptable for a ball python. Would you be happy with a normal that behaved like that?

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Again there isn't anything proving or disproving that its neurological. The wobble is part of the spider gene, like pink eye's with albinos, or the duck bill thing with super cinni's. You either love them or you don't..but don't try and make the breeder out to be a bad guy like they sold a defective product.

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The "spider wobble" is judged acceptable simply because it doesn't kill them, and because lots of breeders who invested $20-30 GRAND on their first spiders back in the late 90s wanted it to be a non issue and make their investments back.

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It's judged acceptable because we can look past a slight motor function issue and see a wonderful morph..

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If people bred mammals with such obvious defects they would be slated.

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But we don't..We breed mutants, genetic freaks on purpose. Hip Displacea, heart problem, joint issues, nasal problems all of these are "common" problems in Dogs so yes they do still breed mammals with problems..

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To just gloss it over to someone new to the hobby as "normal" and basically tell them to stop being upset is a little closed minded IMO.

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Or simply trying to calm their fears that there is something wrong with their spider..

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I would also suggest that someone with an attitude like this has never seen a spider with a real bad case of wither the wobbles or 'corkscrewing'. The worst ones are truly heartbreaking.

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Some might not have..then others have seen them, hatched them, fed them, and can still say that its a spider

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What will become "normal" and "acceptable" next? Will the up and coming breeders of ball morphs be telling people it's ok to breed kinked caramels and caramel combos? That it's ok to breed a super cinnamon males with a duck billed face and a kink in it's spine like a golf club?

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There is no evidence that duck billing, kinking and the like is passed from parent to offspring. Over the last 8+ years it seems to only show up in the stuff you mentioned super's and caramels. With that said even normals get kinks, duck bills, little eye's big heads, cleft palates, no eyes and far far worse.

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If the spider gene was discovered in the wild NOW with how the hobby is instead of being found right "back in the day" when the ball morph market was nuts would people still ignore this flaw? or would they say "we have so many other amazing looking morphs we'd prefer not to buy one that can't even tell which way is the correct way up". IMO if the spider gene was WC NOW, today, any responsible breeder would say "well this thing looks great, and it's genetic but if I can't fix this issue with new blood or outbreeding i'll leave it alone."

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Maybe then again we'll never know..

Spiders: Love them, Hate them, breed them, or leave them alone..the choice is yours..
Me I love them and all their combos..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

There is no evidence to prove or disprove this its simply speculation


Every morph you work with is "Flawed" that's what makes them different from normals..It's hypercritical to say that you except every other genetic flaw in the hobby but this one. Then talk poorly about it simply because you don't like it.


Again there isn't anything proving or disproving that its neurological. The wobble is part of the spider gene, like pink eye's with albinos, or the duck bill thing with super cinni's. You either love them or you don't..but don't try and make the breeder out to be a bad guy like they sold a defective product.


It's judged acceptable because we can look past a slight motor function issue and see a wonderful morph..


But we don't..We breed mutants, genetic freaks on purpose.


Or simply trying to calm their fears that there is something wrong with their spider..


Some might not have..then others have seen them, hatched them, fed them, and can still say that its a spider


There is no evidence that duck billing, kinking and the like is passed from parent to offspring. Over the last 8+ years it seems to only show up in the stuff you mentioned super's and caramels. With that said even normals get kinks, duck bills, little eye's big heads, cleft palates, no eyes and far far worse.


Maybe then again we'll never know..

Spiders: Love them, Hate them, breed them, or leave them alone..the choice is yours..
Me I love them and all their combos..

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Where to start with that?First off (as I stated), it's simply my opinion and personal choice. Neither am I trying to flame a breeder.

Right. No evidence it's neurological? What else can it be? Spiders are not fully in control of their movements. Motor function is controlled by the brain. is it by definition neurological. Even if it is not neurological it IS non-normal behaviour for a ball python. Other morphs do not cause non normal behavior. That is why I don't like it.

I also completely disagree with you about all morphs being flaws, that is complete rubbish. They are different to normals, yes but not flawed. We breed genetic mutations NOT flaws. No other royal python gene has a problem linked with it in this way.To compare spiders wobble to pink eyes in albinos is laughable. Totally different.

I did not try to calm the OP, because it was clear form their first post they had accepted it and did not need "calming down".

I wasn't trying to take a dig at a breeder, I know i'm almost alone in my choice not to breed spiders. I wasn't judging, insulting or suggesting anyone has done something wrong in this case.

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Originally Posted by mason

she has every right to be upset, it sounds like it was (as usual) kept 'hush-hush' to a newbie until a sale was made.


Basically spiders have this neurological problem, it is upto you to decide weather you think it's "fine" like everyone says.

We personally chose not to work with (ie reproduce) the spider gene because of this flaw. It has however become commonly accepted because people think spiders are pretty and (like they have all said) spiders seem to manage ok (eat, poo, breed etc)

To say it is not a big deal is wrong, I imagine it IS a big deal when you drop hundreds of dollars on your first ever ball morph only to find out about a well known neurological issue AFTER the purchase. You only say it's normal/accpetable because the breeders that are trying to sell these snakes say it is. Personally, just because they eat and shed (etc), it's no reason to class is as normal or acceptable for a ball python. Would you be happy with a normal that behaved like that?

The "spider wobble" is judged acceptable simply because it doesn't kill them, and because lots of breeders who invested $20-30 GRAND on their first spiders back in the late 90s wanted it to be a non issue and make their investments back.

If people bred mammals with such obvious defects they would be slated.

To just gloss it over to someone new to the hobby as "normal" and basically tell them to stop being upset is a little closed minded IMO.

I would also suggest that someone with an attitude like this has never seen a spider with a real bad case of wither the wobbles or 'corkscrewing'. The worst ones are truly heartbreaking.

What will become "normal" and "acceptable" next? Will the up and coming breeders of ball morphs be telling people it's ok to breed kinked caramels and caramel combos? That it's ok to breed a super cinnamon males with a duck billed face and a kink in it's spine like a golf club?

If the spider gene was discovered in the wild NOW with how the hobby is instead of being found right "back in the day" when the ball morph market was nuts would people still ignore this flaw? or would they say "we have so many other amazing looking morphs we'd prefer not to buy one that can't even tell which way is the correct way up". IMO if the spider gene was WC NOW, today, any responsible breeder would say "well this thing looks great, and it's genetic but if I can't fix this issue with new blood or outbreeding i'll leave it alone."

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I just fail to see how it's reasonable to get terribly upset over a trait that is endemic to a morph and isn't affecting it's quality of life at all. If the breeder specifically misled the buyer then I would be upset, or if the snake had a particularly bad wobble as you are describing (which I have seen). I think people overreact to this too much and research too little.

You are so very wrong about similarities to mammals, also. There are plenty of examples of breed-specific illnesses that exist in dogs. Daschunds have hip and disc issues, great danes have bad hearts, english bulldogs often have difficulties whelping, etc etc etc. And yet we breed and sell these animals without qualm. The only difference is that, unlike a spider's mild wobble, these traits actually DO cause health problems. It's up to the buyer to research what they are buying, IMO.

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Originally Posted by mason

Right. No evidence it's neurological? What else can it be? Spiders are not fully in control of their movements. Motor function is controlled by the brain. is it by definition neurological. Even if it is not neurological it IS non-normal behaviour for a ball python. Other morphs do not cause non normal behavior. That is why I don't like it.

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Musculoskeletal, possibly. It does look neurological, but it would be interesting to know for sure.

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Originally Posted by mason

Where to start with that?First off (as I stated), it's simply my opinion and personal choice. Neither am I trying to flame a breeder.

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I respect that I was simply offering another opinion.

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Right. No evidence it's neurological? What else can it be? Spiders are not fully in control of their movements. Motor function is controlled by the brain. is it by definition neurological. Even if it is not neurological it IS non-normal behavior for a ball python. Other morphs do not cause non normal behavior. That is why I don't like it.

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Unless it's an equilibrium issue, or their labial pits are over active, or they have double vision..We simply don't know..

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I also completely disagree with you about all morphs being flaws, that is complete rubbish. They are different to normals, yes but not flawed. We breed genetic mutations NOT flaws. No other royal python gene has a problem linked with it in this way.To compare spiders wobble to pink eyes in albinos is laughable. Totally different.

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Every mutation has a genetic problem, Every signal one of them! And yes they there are. Caramels Kink, Super cinni's have duck bills, Pearl's die, Granite Albinos have head deformations, even seen Woma's that wobble. ;)

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I did not try to calm the OP, because it was clear form their first post they had accepted it and did not need "calming down".

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Agreed..

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I wasn't trying to take a dig at a breeder, I know i'm almost alone in my choice not to breed spiders. I wasn't judging, insulting or suggesting anyone has done something wrong in this case.

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Ok it just felt like that with the "hush hush" comment.. I respect that you wont work with Spider's nothing wrong with that.

Hope I didn't offend or come off harsh or hard..not my intent..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Unless it's an equilibrium issue, or their labial pits are over active, or they have double vision..We simply don't know..

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Hmm, that is interesting. When I bred/kept rats (as pets) I sometimes ran into issues with them that looked similar to a spider wobble because of poor eyesight. They bob and weave their heads back and forth to compensate for very poor eyesight (pretty common in albinos).

I see both sides of the argument. It's your choice.


Personally, it is why I won't ever buy a spider.

My loss? Maybe.

But, I don't think it is something I want to promote when there are dozens of other beautiful morphs out there that aren't tied to the "wobble".

To each his own though, they are beautiful and obviously can live a healthy life.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

Hmm, that is interesting. When I bred/kept rats (as pets) I sometimes ran into issues with them that looked similar to a spider wobble because of poor eyesight. They bob and weave their heads back and forth to compensate for very poor eyesight (pretty common in albinos).

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I've seen that also in our colony.. RI's in rats will also cause it almost like an inner ear infection.. Like I said we simply don't know why they do it they just do..

When I first got my spider, he had the "wobbles" pretty good. Three years later, he doesn't "wobble" anymore and is my best breeder male. The female he has sired doesn't "wobble" at all.

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Originally Posted by mason

she has every right to be upset, it sounds like it was (as usual) kept 'hush-hush' to a newbie until a sale was made.


Basically spiders have this neurological problem, it is upto you to decide weather you think it's "fine" like everyone says.

We personally chose not to work with (ie reproduce) the spider gene because of this flaw. It has however become commonly accepted because people think spiders are pretty and (like they have all said) spiders seem to manage ok (eat, poo, breed etc)

To say it is not a big deal is wrong, I imagine it IS a big deal when you drop hundreds of dollars on your first ever ball morph only to find out about a well known neurological issue AFTER the purchase. You only say it's normal/accpetable because the breeders that are trying to sell these snakes say it is. Personally, just because they eat and shed (etc), it's no reason to class is as normal or acceptable for a ball python. Would you be happy with a normal that behaved like that?

The "spider wobble" is judged acceptable simply because it doesn't kill them, and because lots of breeders who invested $20-30 GRAND on their first spiders back in the late 90s wanted it to be a non issue and make their investments back.

If people bred mammals with such obvious defects they would be slated.

To just gloss it over to someone new to the hobby as "normal" and basically tell them to stop being upset is a little closed minded IMO.

I would also suggest that someone with an attitude like this has never seen a spider with a real bad case of wither the wobbles or 'corkscrewing'. The worst ones are truly heartbreaking.

What will become "normal" and "acceptable" next? Will the up and coming breeders of ball morphs be telling people it's ok to breed kinked caramels and caramel combos? That it's ok to breed a super cinnamon males with a duck billed face and a kink in it's spine like a golf club?

If the spider gene was discovered in the wild NOW with how the hobby is instead of being found right "back in the day" when the ball morph market was nuts would people still ignore this flaw? or would they say "we have so many other amazing looking morphs we'd prefer not to buy one that can't even tell which way is the correct way up". IMO if the spider gene was WC NOW, today, any responsible breeder would say "well this thing looks great, and it's genetic but if I can't fix this issue with new blood or outbreeding i'll leave it alone."

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Thats why i was kind of upset when i found out. My favorite morphs go back to spiders, and i wanted to breed out my own but i don't want to pass this on to any babies. If the wobble condition was severe in any i would feel terrible!! Just because it looks just like dying snakes with ibd.

what is the wobbles?

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

I just fail to see how it's reasonable to get terribly upset over a trait that is endemic to a morph and isn't affecting it's quality of life at all.

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Im not 'terribly upset'...

and like i said i love her either way.

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Originally Posted by dembonez

what is the wobbles?

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http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=44249&page=2

Mel.....It has been shown with breeding that a spiders with no visual wobble can put out others with huge wobbles and vice versa. It has also been show with some....ask Rabernet.....that some that are really really bad...turn out fine later on.

There are tons of threads on this and as always...there are very passionate opinions. Myself....I LOVEeeeeeeeeeeeee wayyyyyyyy too many of the morphs that are made with spiders. I also personally think that the duckbill is adorable! :rolleyes: It has been shown too that the carmels....even if no visable kink...show some deformaties in xrays.

I agree with freaky on this ....all morphs have genetic deformities of some kind on some scale....I am sure some that we don't even know about yet.

I just wanted to quickly interject this:

Spider wobbles are generally accepted by the herp community as "not bad enough to prevent breeding" because - - - Not only do they "just survive", but they THRIVE in captivity. They eat well, they grow, they aren't any more susceptible to disease, and they BREED.

I don't work with spiders, and I am not in the "wobbling is cute" camp, but I'm not going to naysay someone who does breed and sell spiders.

That said, I think it's important for all people who sell spiders to inform every customer of what wobbling is (especially younger customers), what they can expect from the extremes of spider wobbling (or lack thereof), and why if they decide they are fine with it that their snake will likely be just as healthy and thrive in captivity just as any other ball python.

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Originally Posted by mason

To say it is not a big deal is wrong, I imagine it IS a big deal when you drop hundreds of dollars on your first ever ball morph only to find out about a well known neurological issue AFTER the purchase. You only say it's normal/accpetable because the breeders that are trying to sell these snakes say it is. Personally, just because they eat and shed (etc), it's no reason to class is as normal or acceptable for a ball python. Would you be happy with a normal that behaved like that?

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Yes, I would. I don't have a ball python and would die of happiness if I got one. So, if someone gave me a normal that wobbled, would I be happy? You bet I would.

All spiders wobble...

My spider is an adult male and has very little sign of it. Unless he is feeding or being held you wouldnt know. When hes feeding he gets excited and vibrates and bobs his head a little. When you are holding him he will do a mild corkscrew around your arm, occasionally.

There is nothing wrong with a Spider that has a wobble or corkscrew - they act like any other Ball python would and the wobble is genetic. I have not seen the wobble with my Spider at all, but I could really care less if he did happen to have it. Don't freak out about the wobble, it's just a genetic thing with all Spiders and there is nothing wrong with them having it. It is not a disease and does not make the Ball python unhealthy.

I have seen 1 normal wobble before. It wasn't a corkscrew but a good amount of head bobbing. I will be getting a spider soon enough. I love the way they and the morphs they produce look.

I think every spider wobbles. Until someone video tapes a spider for 20 years with out a wobble and I see it I say they all wobble. Spiders are probably the coolest base morph and without them we wouldn't have any of the Bee morphs.

I understand you being worried I really do. Look up the spider wobble on youtube and compare your snake to it. Keep in mind some of the videos are sad and some are just a slight head wobble

Here are some videos of the wobble
YouTube - Spider ball python - crazy wobble when feeding

Here is a bad wobble. It is a spider pinstripe aka spinner
YouTube - Spinner Ball Python Wobbling

That first video is from a user on this site. The snake is beautiful, has alot of white on it.

That spinner video is heartbreaking, and has kept me away from the spider morph...

You guys have to understand that each and every morph out there is a MUTATION of a ball python. So if you think that you shouldn't breed an animal because it has a genetic defect, then you are basically saying that you don't want to breed any morphs.

The spider wobble comes with the territory. You aren't going to avoid the wobble by breeding spiders with no wobble, and you won't necessarily pass a bad wobble to offspring. You can't "breed out" the wobble. It is PART of the spider mutation.

The spiders genetic defect is not life threatening in any way. To them, they are probably completely normal.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

You guys have to understand that each and every morph out there is a MUTATION of a ball python. So if you think that you shouldn't breed an animal because it has a genetic defect, then you are basically saying that you don't want to breed any morphs.

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There is a difference, in my opinion, between a morph that only effects the snakes phenotype... and one that effects it's motor function.

As others have said, they still thrive, eat, live healthy lives, etc. As long as someone understands the side effect and can still responsibly care for and provide for their snake.... Then who am I to say they should or shouldn't have it?

Spiders are my favorite base morph, they really are beautiful snakes. It is a shame that whatever effects them is there but it's there. The wobble wont scare me away from these beautiful animals