Rate this bumblebee.

Is this a fine example of a bumblebee(not mine by the way)?:) i think it is a she. and weighs maybe 1kg.:) Do you think she will keep her colors or still darken?

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/510/dsc00002u.jpg

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Originally Posted by BjDavid

Is this a fine example of a bumblebee(not mine by the way)?:) i think it is a she. and weighs maybe 1kg.:) Do you think she will keep her colors or still darken?

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/510/dsc00002u.jpg

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She looks lovely but it is your oppinion that matters. I really don't mind about animal getting lighter or darker - the genes are the same despite of its colors.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

She looks lovely but it is your oppinion that matters. I really don't mind about animal getting lighter or darker - the genes are the same despite of its colors.

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True, but no one wants a below average looking morph. We try to strive for the best you know.

thanks for your reply. it is true. i would also want the best looking morph so that when breeding comes i would get above average looking offspring.:) that being said do you guys think this is an above average looking bee? sorry i am from the philippines and there arent many sub-adult adult bees here. :)

Hi,

May be she is darken with her older or may be not. Almost i had seen BB is darken with their older age. But i love her pattern and white side. Stunning Bee :gj: love it :D

Hi,

May be she is darken with her older or may be not. Almost i had seen BB is darken with their older age. But i love her pattern and white side. Stunning Bee :gj: love it :D

Jessie/Thailand

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

[/B]

True, but no one wants a below average looking morph. We try to strive for the best you know.

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That is just superficial if you ask me. No one can guranteed have the best morph produced.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

That is just superficial if you ask me. No one can guranteed have the best morph produced.

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Of course their wouldn't be any guarantees, but you're breeding animals, something that doesn't lend itself well to guaranteeing anything. However, I will guarantee that I'm going to try & produce the hottest stuff possible.

OP - that's a pretty good looking bee for 1kg

thanks.:) hope she doesnt change her colors. the best looking bee if seen for me belongs to freakie frog. his example of a bumblebee is amazing.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

That is just superficial if you ask me. No one can guranteed have the best morph produced.

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Originally Posted by dreese88

Of course their wouldn't be any guarantees, but you're breeding animals, something that doesn't lend itself well to guaranteeing anything. However, I will guarantee that I'm going to try & produce the hottest stuff possible.

OP - that's a pretty good looking bee for 1kg

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Getting the best looking Morph/combo offspring is more likely to happen if you start With the best looking parents...Selective breeding.

You don't start with average animals when breeding for quality no matter what kind of animals they are...Dogs, Cats, Horses, Snakes... That is why people pay top dollar for top animals so they have Top genetics passed on to every animal they produce.

OP - That is a nice looking bee the brown out on top may get darker but it I don't think it will spread... I have noticed that the brown out on pastels I have raised stays pretty much to the scales that have already browned and doesn't spread over the nice clean yellow ones, though the Yellow can fade with age.

I personally would think that if she was going to brown out, she would have done it by 1000g..... just my .02

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Originally Posted by JAMills

Getting the best looking Morph/combo offspring is more likely to happen if you start With the best looking parents...Selective breeding.

You don't start with average animals when breeding for quality no matter what kind of animals they are...Dogs, Cats, Horses, Snakes... That is why people pay top dollar for top animals so they have Top genetics passed on to every animal they produce.

OP - That is a nice looking bee the brown out on top may get darker but it I don't think it will spread... I have noticed that the brown out on pastels I have raised stays pretty much to the scales that have already browned and doesn't spread over the nice clean yellow ones, though the Yellow can fade with age.

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I have to disagree with you on that. Selective breeding is a gamble, not a gurantee. And nor does it increase the chances significantly. For instance: just because you buy 1.1 pied (high-white) then you're not guranteed to get offspring that has 85 - 95% white on their body. It is a gamble and just because the parents are nice then that doesn't mean that the offspring is going to look even better than them. It varies through generations. One day you're lucky and vice versa.

I've got a few grown-up G-stripes - females of course. One of them has some partial breaks here and there on her stripe, and yet her parents had complete fading stripes. I don't care about that as long as the genes are what they're supossed to be, and that the animal in question is healthy and works fine.

You can try and stirve for perfection but it is so unlikey that one may have the champion of for instance pastels. Some like blush while some like clean. Some like reduced while other like busy. Some like bright while some like dark. As long as the owner is satisfied then he/she shouldn't care about people opinions.

Would you rather pick the handsome looking but poor feeding VPI axanthic or the average looking but terrific feeder VPI axanthic? Health and genes come before looks in my world.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

Would you rather pick the handsome looking but poor feeding VPI axanthic or the average looking but terrific feeder VPI axanthic? Health and genes come before looks in my world.

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I'd pick neither, I'd pick the Axanthic that was the best looking I could find and also a great feeder. If there were none available like that...I'd wait until there was.

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Originally Posted by dreese88

I'd pick neither, I'd pick the Axanthic that was the best looking I could find and also a great feeder. If there were non-available like that...I'd wait until there was.

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Ding, ding, ding, ding!!!!!! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

I have to disagree with you on that. Selective breeding is a gamble, not a gurantee. And nor does it increase the chances significantly. For instance: just because you buy 1.1 pied (high-white) then you're not guranteed to get offspring that has 85 - 95% white on their body. It is a gamble and just because the parents are nice then that doesn't mean that the offspring is going to look even better than them. It varies through generations. One day you're lucky and vice versa.

I've got a few grown-up G-stripes - females of course. One of them has some partial breaks here and there on her stripe, and yet her parents had complete fading stripes. I don't care about that as long as the genes are what they're supossed to be, and that the animal in question is healthy and works fine.

You can try and stirve for perfection but it is so unlikey that one may have the champion of for instance pastels. Some like blush while some like clean. Some like reduced while other like busy. Some like bright while some like dark. As long as the owner is satisfied then he/she shouldn't care about people opinions.

Would you rather pick the handsome looking but poor feeding VPI axanthic or the average looking but terrific feeder VPI axanthic? Health and genes come before looks in my world.

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Sorry - but I have to disagree with YOU. That thinking is exactly why there are so many ugly dog turd brown pastels out there that look like normals? Because too many breeders cared more about producing as many pastels as they could, regardless of selectively breeding them to the brightest and nicest normals that they could.

We all know that piebald level of white is random and doesn't have anything to do with selective breeding. It's a pattern mutation.

But color mutations absolutely can be enhanced by working with the best quality animals that you can.

I paid premium dollars for my pastel back in 2006, and he was worth every dime. I've been offered a lot of money since then for him and have turned down every offer.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ston/Winny.jpg

I selectively bred him to one of my lightest females and produced this girl - who's brighter than he is.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...s/DSC_0160.jpg

You can't convince me that selective breeding is a wasted effort. It may actually be more ***gasp*** WORK to selectively breed. But my goals are to produce the nicest babies that I can, because that's what I want in my collection.

Ask some of my customers if they had to sacrifice health or feeding issues to get a quality animal. I can't think of a single one who hasn't had their animals pounding food just as hard as they did with me. I don't let them go until they're pounding food.

If you are more concerned with just getting the gene to say you have a pastel (or any other morph) and don't care how ugly it is - more power to you! :gj:

Yeah, I'm a wee bit passionate about producing selectively bred quality animals.

To the OP - he may brown out more - but I don't think by a lot. It's a fantastic looking animal!

I think that is a very nice example of a bee. At first glance, I thought she was a little brown, then I saw where you said she is about 1000g, and I was just thinking of hatchlings since that is what you see pics of most.

What is more remarkable to me is that she has a pretty reduced pattern for a bee. I've noticed that although it is getting easy to find a reduced spider, the spider combos have not been selectively bred in that direction as long, and very often are filled with alien eyes.

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Originally Posted by dreese88

I'd pick neither, I'd pick the Axanthic that was the best looking I could find and also a great feeder. If there were none available like that...I'd wait until there was.

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Exactly!
I never said pick the best looking animal regardless of Health.

Health and looks are both very important.

Also Ouroboros, I never said anything about a guarantee. The only guarantee in this life is we will all die.
The subtle differences that make one example of the morph in question better looking than another of the same morph do depend on genetics, not just the genetics for the morph itself but also the genetics of all the other subtle traits that make it a more attractive animal. So if you start with the best animals you can find you have a much better chance of producing animals of the same quality or better. Don't get me wrong you can still produce an ugly baby from pretty parents, but you are more likely to produce pretty babies from pretty parents than ugly parents.

That said, I will agree with one thing you hit on Ouroboros. Everyone has different tastes and what one person likes another person may not.

So find healthy animals that are the best example of what you like and selectively breed them to make better versions of what you like...

The Future is Quality Selective breeding, not pumping out as many of a morph as you can just because you can and flooding the market with ugly examples of the morph! :thumbsdow:

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

Selective breeding is a gamble, not a gurantee. And nor does it increase the chances significantly.

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No, it is not a guarantee, but as has already been pointed out, there really aren't any guarantees when it comes to breeding animals. However, it definitely DOES increase the chances very significantly.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

For instance: just because you buy 1.1 pied (high-white) then you're not guranteed to get offspring that has 85 - 95% white on their body.

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How convenient that you pull out an example that people believe is random. But we weren't talking about pieds in this thread were we? We were talking about a bee, which is a cross between a pastel, and a spider. Both pastel and spider are genes that have been shown to benefit very much from selective breeding. Pastels can be selectively bred for the brightest, most blushing, etc., while spiders can be selectively bred for reduced patterns. You can't argue with that... it has been done! It is done consistently (not 100% success, but enough to know it isn't random) by those breeders who choose to selectively breed.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

It is a gamble and just because the parents are nice then that doesn't mean that the offspring is going to look even better than them. It varies through generations. One day you're lucky and vice versa.

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Yes, it varies, yes, there is luck involved. And of course, no one expects that the offspring will always look even better than the parents. But, I do expect that the offspring of a high quality pastel male bred to a nice light normal female will almost always look SIGNIFICANTLY better than the offspring of one of those muddy browned out pastels bred to a darker normal.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

I've got a few grown-up G-stripes - females of course. One of them has some partial breaks here and there on her stripe, and yet her parents had complete fading stripes.

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Right, because there will be variation. But I bet if you take a clutch of babies produced from a pair of full stripe G-stripes, and compare it to a clutch produced from a pair of very broken G-stripes, it would be possible to know which group of babies belonged to which parents because there would be fewer breaks, and a higher percentage of the babies would have full stripes in the clutch produced by the full stripe parents.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

You can try and stirve for perfection but it is so unlikey that one may have the champion of for instance pastels. Some like blush while some like clean. Some like reduced while other like busy. Some like bright while some like dark. As long as the owner is satisfied then he/she shouldn't care about people opinions.

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Of course "perfection" is unlikely. Does that mean we shouldn't even try to be the best we can? Or in this case, to produce the best snakes we can?

And yes, different people like different things, but almost everyone who has been around BP morphs long enough to be able to recognize a pastel, will prefer a high quality one to one of those muddy ones that can almost pass for a normal.

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

I don't care about that as long as the genes are what they're supossed to be, and that the animal in question is healthy and works fine.....Would you rather pick the handsome looking but poor feeding VPI axanthic or the average looking but terrific feeder VPI axanthic? Health and genes come before looks in my world.

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At least you understand that a healthy animal is important. Some people who can't be bothered with selective breeding also can't be bothered to care how healthy an animal is. But I agree with those who say that given the choice above, I'd pick neither. I'd go with a different morph, or just wait for a better example to come along, one which is better in ALL ways, not just looks, and not just feeding response.

IMO, there are no "ugly dog turd brown " Pastels, but if I accepted the discription, then I would have to say that we have ugly dog turd brown Pastels out because breeders bred so many and instead of eliminating those that they considered subpar, they dumped them on wholesalers who in turn dumped them on the public, who being excited about finally being able to afford the Pastels, promptly turned around and continued the cycle (to try and get their "investment" back. So, now...we have what some want to claim as "subpar" animals to justify having a hefty price tag on an animal that WILL brown out with age, some just brown out sooner.

Again imo, trying to hook price to looks and claim quality is going to be a losing battle as the consumer gets more savvy. I have brought a coat from Walmart for my grandkids that has lasted longer than one from Neiman Marcus.:tears:

The simple truth about BPs (again in my opinion) is unless they are crossed with a Fire or Vanilla or one of the "lightening" morphs, they will brown out with age. Maybe not fast, but they will brown out. :(

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Originally Posted by broadude

IMO, there are no "ugly dog turd brown " Pastels, but if I accepted the discription, then I would have to say that we have ugly dog turd brown Pastels out because breeders bred so many and instead of eliminating those that they considered subpar, they dumped them on wholesalers who in turn dumped them on the public, who being excited about finally being able to afford the Pastels, promptly turned around and continued the cycle (to try and get their "investment" back. So, now...we have what some want to claim as "subpar" animals to justify having a hefty price tag on an animal that WILL brown out with age, some just brown out sooner.

Again imo, trying to hook price to looks and claim quality is going to be a losing battle as the consumer gets more savvy. I have brought a coat from Walmart for my grandkids that has lasted longer than one from Neiman Marcus.:tears:

The simple truth about BPs (again in my opinion) is unless they are crossed with a Fire or Vanilla or one of the "lightening" morphs, they will brown out with age. Maybe not fast, but they will brown out. :(

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I'll start by standing by Robin on the ugly dog turd brown pastels. I've seen some pastels that are as brown as as a dark normal. That to me is an ugly pastel. Robin stated her pastel is an 07 and has posted pics of him. That animal is at least 2 years old. My pastel is from July of 08, right over 18 months now.

When I got into this hobby, I got my Pastel from Albey. Then, I shopped on KS and other websites for what I had the money for at the time, then after talking to Albey about this concept, it dawned on me. Better looking animals for the most part, cost more and make better looking babies. 4 of my 5 snakes have come from Albey, since when I was shopping for my animals, he had the best examples of the morphs I was looking for. Sure they may have cost me a bit extra, but they were what I wanted.

On your statement about coats, I believe that you are comparing apples to oranges. Material goods are different from animals. I do think that people that have the best animals in looks AND health can charge a premium, because that's what the people who are truly serious about that hobby want. If that's not worth it to you, or you want to charge a lower price for a premium animal, then that's your prerogative.

With your statement that all animals will brown out unless crossed with a clean up gene. I really can't say anything, because it depends on your definition of brown out. My pastel at 1400+ g is still yellow. A bit more tan than he was at 120 g, but his yellow is still prominent.

A little story...

I went to the Columbia repticon show...Spring of last year. I was looking at this table and a guy had a good looking Caramel. All of his pastels were BROWN and they were still small(200-300 g). I told him that I wish I had the money to purchase the Caramel, but that I was paying off a Pewter. He asked what I paid for it and I told him $1500. He claimed I was getting ripped off. Then I told him that it was from March of 08 and was almost 700 g. He still claimed a rip. I respectfully disagreed and walked off. This pewter was worth the $ to me because I knew that it was a fantastic looking animal and was eating well.

The moral of the story is, if you don't want to get quality animals, then don't pay for them. Pay that $50 for a Wild Type looking Pastel, but don't complain when I tell you that I don't think it looks good.


Pictures of the 2 snakes of mine that I mentioned.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...e/100_0307.jpg

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Originally Posted by dreese88

I'll start by standing by Robin on the ugly dog turd brown pastels. I've seen some pastels that are as brown as as a dark normal. That to me is an ugly pastel. Robin stated her pastel is an 07 and has posted pics of him. That animal is at least 2 years old. My pastel is from July of 08, right over 18 months now.

When I got into this hobby, I got my Pastel from Albey. Then, I shopped on KS and other websites for what I had the money for at the time, then after talking to Albey about this concept, it dawned on me. Better looking animals for the most part, cost more and make better looking babies. 4 of my 5 snakes have come from Albey, since when I was shopping for my animals, he had the best examples of the morphs I was looking for. Sure they may have cost me a bit extra, but they were what I wanted.

On your statement about coats, I believe that you are comparing apples to oranges. Material goods are different from animals. I do think that people that have the best animals in looks AND health can charge a premium, because that's what the people who are truly serious about that hobby want. If that's not worth it to you, or you want to charge a lower price for a premium animal, then that's your prerogative.

With your statement that all animals will brown out unless crossed with a clean up gene. I really can't say anything, because it depends on your definition of brown out. My pastel at 1400+ g is still yellow. A bit more tan than he was at 120 g, but his yellow is still prominent.

A little story...

I went to the Columbia repticon show...Spring of last year. I was looking at this table and a guy had a good looking Caramel. All of his pastels were BROWN and they were still small(200-300 g). I told him that I wish I had the money to purchase the Caramel, but that I was paying off a Pewter. He asked what I paid for it and I told him $1500. He claimed I was getting ripped off. Then I told him that it was from March of 08 and was almost 700 g. He still claimed a rip. I respectfully disagreed and walked off. This pewter was worth the $ to me because I knew that it was a fantastic looking animal and was eating well.

The moral of the story is, if you don't want to get quality animals, then don't pay for them. Pay that $50 for a Wild Type looking Pastel, but don't complain when I tell you that I don't think it looks good.


Pictures of the 2 snakes of mine that I mentioned.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...e/100_0307.jpg

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I do happen to agree that some animals look better than others. Get back to me when the animal is older. It is wonderful when they stay a vibrant color for a long time, but I haven't seen the animal that has retained his/her color over a period of years (it varies) regardless of whom the animal came from?

Sorry about the apples and oranges comparison..I was actually trying to say that a high price does not necessarily mean an animal is quality. Neither does having a low price mean that an animal is not quality. I do agree that quality is worth paying for.:gj:

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Originally Posted by dreese88

Pictures of the 2 snakes of mine that I mentioned.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...e/100_0307.jpg

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Dreese those are some very nice looking animals

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Sorry - but I have to disagree with YOU. That thinking is exactly why there are so many ugly dog turd brown pastels out there that look like normals? Because too many breeders cared more about producing as many pastels as they could, regardless of selectively breeding them to the brightest and nicest normals that they could.

We all know that piebald level of white is random and doesn't have anything to do with selective breeding. It's a pattern mutation.

But color mutations absolutely can be enhanced by working with the best quality animals that you can.

I paid premium dollars for my pastel back in 2006, and he was worth every dime. I've been offered a lot of money since then for him and have turned down every offer.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...ston/Winny.jpg

I selectively bred him to one of my lightest females and produced this girl - who's brighter than he is.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...s/DSC_0160.jpg

You can't convince me that selective breeding is a wasted effort. It may actually be more ***gasp*** WORK to selectively breed. But my goals are to produce the nicest babies that I can, because that's what I want in my collection.

Ask some of my customers if they had to sacrifice health or feeding issues to get a quality animal. I can't think of a single one who hasn't had their animals pounding food just as hard as they did with me. I don't let them go until they're pounding food.

If you are more concerned with just getting the gene to say you have a pastel (or any other morph) and don't care how ugly it is - more power to you! :gj:

Yeah, I'm a wee bit passionate about producing selectively bred quality animals.

To the OP - he may brown out more - but I don't think by a lot. It's a fantastic looking animal!

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Originally Posted by Ouroboros

That is just superficial if you ask me. No one can guranteed have the best morph produced.

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x 1000

I was thinking of your pastel Robin this whole thread before you posted :)

And I have seen him in person ( And is this the baby that your brough to the GA show last year?) And if you think the pictures show good looking But anyways, his babys are BRIGHT yellow, and by far the best I have ever seen. They are

:gj:The Pastels posted are absolutely stunning. Do/would either of you give a guarantee that Pastels produced by these animals will not brown out to your customers?

Just asking...

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Originally Posted by broadude

:gj:The Pastels posted are absolutely stunning. Do/would either of you give a guarantee that Pastels produced by these animals will not brown out to your customers?

Just asking...

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See, I don't understand why everyone goes back to the guarantee thing.

I would never guarantee the looks of Possible offspring.

Though I would have no problem telling someone that if they get really nice looking parents they have a better shot at producing really nice babies than starting with ugly parents.

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Originally Posted by JAMills

See, I don't understand why everyone goes back to the guarantee thing.

I would never guarantee the looks of Possible offspring.

Though I would have no problem telling someone that if they get really nice looking parents they have a better shot at producing really nice babies than starting with ugly parents.

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Don't want a "guarantee." I am quite confident that normal Pastels WILL brown out regardless of how bright they are as hatchlings and how long they retain the color (it's just a matter of degree).

Just wanted it clear that getting the brightest color baby ever from the brightest color parents ever that have retained their colors for the longest is NOT a guarantee that the hatchlings or the parents will keep those colors...:tears:

However much I wish it were.

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Originally Posted by broadude

:gj:The Pastels posted are absolutely stunning. Do/would either of you give a guarantee that Pastels produced by these animals will not brown out to your customers?

Just asking...

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I'm trying to understand what your point is? That selective breeding is pointless?

Would I guarantee that they're not going to brown out over 30 years time? Of course not. But at three and a half years old, Winston still gets gasps when people see him in person (at 2000 grams). He is starting to get a little brown on top, but his yellow still is stunning.

If I'm not going to selectively breed with the goal to produce nicer and nicer animals, then I'm not going to breed at all - what's the point? Just to produce animals with certain genes just because?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If I'm not going to selectively breed with the goal to produce nicer and nicer animals, then I'm not going to breed at all - what's the point? Just to produce animals with certain genes just because?

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True dat home fries...

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Originally Posted by JAMills

Dreese those are some very nice looking animals

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Hopefully, the 2 male and 4 female sterlings they give me will be even more fire!:please::please::please::please:

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Originally Posted by dreese88

Hopefully, the 2 male and 4 female sterlings they give me will be even more fire!:please::please::please::please:

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May the Ball-Python Gods be on your side for those odds...:)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm trying to understand what your point is? That selective breeding is pointless?

Would I guarantee that they're not going to brown out over 30 years time? Of course not. But at three and a half years old, Winston still gets gasps when people see him in person (at 2000 grams). He is starting to get a little brown on top, but his yellow still is stunning.

If I'm not going to selectively breed with the goal to produce nicer and nicer animals, then I'm not going to breed at all - what's the point? Just to produce animals with certain genes just because?

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That's great that you have a gorgeous animal!:gj:

No, my point is not that "selective breeding is pointless." I am simply being realistic that all Pastels will eventually brown out some brown out more than others and faster, but the end result is usually the same.

Carry on.:)

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Originally Posted by broadude

That's great that you have a gorgeous animal!:gj:

No, my point is not that "selective breeding is pointless." I am simply being realistic that all Pastels will eventually brown out some brown out more than others and faster, but the end result is usually the same.

Carry on.:)

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It may eventually be the same - but why would anyone strive to produce brown pastels, barely discernable from normals as babies?

I can tell you why, because some people don't care about producing the best that they can. They produce so that they can pump them out and sell the gene, not the animal.

Apparently there's a market for the lower quality pastels at cheap prices (under $100), but that's not the market that I'm targeting.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I can tell you why, because some people don't care about producing the best that they can. They produce so that they can pump them out and sell the gene, not the animal.

Apparently there's a market for the lower quality pastels at cheap prices (under $100), but that's not the market that I'm targeting.

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And that flood of lower quality animals at cheap price affects the attitudes of potential customers. Who then think that they shouldn't pay more than the average low ball price they see on lower quality animals for your Higher quality animals that you are asking a premium for.

I have experienced several of these people lately. They gave me total @@@@@@@ attitudes when I told them my animals were worth more to me than the low ball prices they offered.

LET ME TELL YOU, IT IS REALLY HARD NOT TO SNAP BACK AT THOSE KIND OF PEOPLE, AND JUST RESPOND AS POLITELY AS YOU CAN....:mad: