changing behaviors

About three months ago I got two new ball pythons from a friend of a friend, ages unknown. I already had a 5 year old male, Kenny (had him for 4 years). They are all approximately the same size, the new female, Maisha is a bit bigger than the others and the new male, Munene is thicker than Kenny. The new guys were quarantined for a month, then I took all of them to the "Serpentarium" for checkups, and they were all pronounced healthy. For the past two months they have all been housed together in a big 6' long glass tank. The two new guys eat a small to medium rat every week and Kenny eats whenever he feels like it. (Last winter I didn't have a place to live, so he had to bounce around my friends houses, and this stress set him off his food (as expected). He last ate three months ago, but he's healthy and active, I'm not worried about him, and was told at his checkup not to worry as well.)

This week however, I've had some changing behaviors. Today is feeding day, and Maisha refused to eat (she's been a great eater) and Munene ate two rats. (previously they both ate one and refused a second if offered) Then after I returned them to their home, Kenny and Maisha started combating. Munene got in on it a little, then went and curled in the corner. They did that for about 20 min, then calmed down then again an hour later. Now their all back to normal.

Does this mean Maisha is male, not female like I was told? Very possible.

The temp is generally 80-85 in the cage, with an uth in one corner (I don't know the surface temp above the heater). They have a large dog bowl for water, a log to hide under and another log to climb, plus a small hide. I use coco bark strata (the kind you get wet and it expands...) so tank has humidity. They generally hang out by the heater right after they eat, then as the week progresses move towards the cool side and on saturdays Maisha is poking her head at the screens "begging for food".

I've only had these guys three months, so "normal" is hard to guess. I have done lots of reading and talking to other bp owners and think housing them together is fine for my situation. I don't mind a clutch of eggs, I have the time and money as well as homes for offspring...

Can I just let nature take it's course? All I've read tells me so... I'd like your opinions (please be nice) and recommendations for better temp control. (Right now the uth is always on and a red basking light is turned on above it during the day (sporadically). I know this is not ideal. I also know I should add another hide or two.

Thanks

First thing I'd do is seperate them as soon as possible.

After that I'd get thermostats on all three cages so that you can control temperatures easily.

Why do you recommend separating them?

Honestly?

You have three snakes in one tank and don't seem sure of the sexes - splitting them all up is pretty much the best advice anyone can give you.

Your best bet would be to set all three up in tubs in fairly simple surroundings (two hides and a waterbowl on a paper substrate ) until you get a reliable sexing done and they are all eating fairly consistently and doing well.

Then you can think about whether you are set up to breed and if the female is ready as well in terms of weight, age and condition. :gj:

But housing them seperately is the way forward in any case - I used to have multiple BP's in a 5' x2' x2' wooden viv and though they were doing fine.

I moved them to a rack system housed individually and they really are doing far better in ways I just wouldn't have thought. I argued like heck about it when I first came here. :rofl:


dr del

And I don't know much about thermostats, tell me about them and does any one have any recommended models?

Hi,

Basically the most important things you need to know about your enclosure are security, temps at various areas, humidity and how the snake feels about it. :)

The acurite weatherstation with probe that costs about $12 from walmart will tell you the temp at the base unit and the end of the probe and the humidity at the base unit - so it is invaluable when dialing in the tank.

The thermostat is designed to regulate the heat pad to make sure it keeps the temps at the right level and avoid either burning your snake or keeping it too cold to thrive.

There are a few options ranging from the zoomed 500R at about $25 to the more trusted units like the ranco and johnson themostats at around $75 - $85 ( I think ) up to the cream of the crop proportional thermostats like the herpstat and helix for $110+

The good thing is thermostats last a while and can be moved from enclosure to enclosure as you upgrade etc. so it is a good investment.

They can also control multiple heat mats as long as they are the same size and the total wattage does not exceed the thermostats limits.

Have a read through the caresheet and see what other questions it brings up.


dr del

You still don't have me convinced to separate them. Even if I have my genders switched on the two new snakes, they are both fine as far as age weight and condition to breed. I appreciate you telling me separating them worked for you, but could you explain what you mean when you say they are doing far better now?

I have read the caresheet and others on other websites, and have read books and talked to many breeders/owners. Based on this I have decided in my particular circumstances housing them together is fine. Feel free to disagree with me (that is why I'm here, this forum seems to be very anti co-housing so you must all have good reasons...lol) but please tell me why you feel this way. I'm not by any means an expert, but I'm not naive about bp either. I'm sorry if my post made it seem that way....

Sure, :)

They eat far more reliably for the most part. Previously I had to seperate to feed them obviously which meant I had to have a fair few feeding containers which spent nearly all their time completely unused.

Then, with the smell of food in the air I had to reach in and seperate out the three females into seperate tanks, feed them, wash my hands so I didn't smell like dinner, then put them all back in the main tank again.

This was fine for the smallest female who is completely unphased by anything but the middle female would occasionally get freaked by the move and refuse to eat. The big female is such a complete woose I ended up having to leave her in the main tank and trying to feed her in there - which meant no one else could go back in until she deigned to eat and even when she had I was then putting snakes in feeding mode into a tank that smelled of rat.

When one snake pooped all three had to be moved to a temp container while I cleaned the tank which meant each snake got moved around on averadge 66% more than they needed to - again not a good idea with nervous nellies and the small female always assumed she was getting fed again. :rolleyes:

I did at least keep the male seperated - until I had to clean his tank one day and figured it would be fine. :slamhead:

The small female ended up laying three eggs but retaining another three with some nasty results - so much so this is the first year I have bred her since as I was worried it would happen again.

The humidity was a nightmare to try and get right in the huge tank so I ended up using a humid hide and still had some horrible sheds.

I thought it was fine they all coiled up together - it never occured to me they could be competing for resources or trying to dominate on another at all.

When one of the females (Cleo ) developed an RI I learned the hard way I needed to have all three checked for it not just her as they shared a waterbowl, hide and pooped all over each other. Expensive lesson that one.

All the while people kept explaining to me why rack systems were best and individual housing was better than what I had.

They finally convinced me to try it so I built myself a rack that housed 8 snakes individually in the floor space I had previously had 3 communally housed in.

After the settling in period and a few foibles (the small female wasn't sure about eating in her normal tank after 5 years of "going out to dinner" ) I started noticing the difference.

They didn't roam about as much - I had to ask to discover this meant they were less stresed. :rolleyes:

Feeding became a lot easier - the length of time one took to eat didn't matter at all. :O

I could leave an F/T in overnight and still know who ate it if it was gone in the morning. :banana:

That single fact solved the big nervous nellies eating problems for the most part - I open her tub show her the F/T rat from no less a distance than a foot, lay it on the paper in the middle of the tub (not near the front :colbert: ), close the tub and 20 minutes later it will be gone.

When they are shedding I generally do not have to do a single thing about it and they still shed perfectly. If they do look like it is going to be a rough shed I can increase the humidity on a per snake basis.

The nervous nellie is far less nervous in general and will even tolerate handling without much of a panic - previously it was like trying to hold an eel on an escape mission with a 50% chance of pee.

I now have the control over who breeds with what - and they seem to like the idea too. This lil thing popped out this morning; :D

http://satanswombat.googlepages.com/...hatchling2.jpg

And I know this sounds like a small thing - but I know who poops, pees and when. And unless it is during a breeding date only one snake ever needs washed as a result. :cool:

I liked it so much I moved every snake I own to a rack system as quickly as I could - and am waiting on the wood to build a hatchling rack as we type with plans for a second small ball python rack (6 slot ) as soon as the coffers refill to grow out hold backs and new purchase males.

Also, and this came as a surprise, my electricity bill went down despite the number of snakes going up. :weirdface

Wow, this turned into a bit of a novel.

Sorry about that. :oops:


dr del

Thanks for the novel, it's the kinda response I was looking for. I currently feed them outside their tank, Kenny sometimes in the tank while the others are out eating, depending on his mood. They eat live, I try to imitate nature as much as possible, I would feed african soft furs or gerbils, but their super illegal here in CA and with my dad being an ag inspector he would chew my head off... I avoid the hands smelling like food issue by having my bf handle the snakes while I handle the rats. And I have no issue with the time it takes to feed them, it's an event we look forward to every week...

Altho I have a lot of pets, I also have a lot of time and pay close attention to them. So far I haven't had any issues with knowing whose poop is whose and who shed what... And I just reach in and take the poop out, no need to move all the snakes to clean.... Same goes with sheds.

Do I have a humidity issue if they are all shedding normal?

As far as the health issue, I understand and agree completely that one sick snake means 3 sick snakes. This is the only reason that has ever had me considering separating them. The people who are pro co-housing say if your snakes have all they need and are happy and healthy, why would they get sick?

Please don't take this as me shootinging back at you that all your reason are wrong and this is why (even if it sounds like it, sorry). Just trying to put as much info out there as possible, so people can form as accurate as possible responses.

What I'd really like to hear is reasons why I can't just leave them all in there and let them mate, have and "raise" their young? (I know snakes don't raise their young and I'm guessing the babies would get eaten if left with the big adults) Has anyone had this happen as well? I'm just a pet owner, not trying to make any money or anything. But I have had many species breed in my care, just not snakes.

Gorgeous snake btw

Oops, sorry about the language... I'll keep it cleaner....

Another question, i thought bp eggs hatched in the spring?

Do have plans for your racks that you could post?

Is it a problem to house 2 males or 2 females together?

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Thanks for the novel, it's the kinda response I was looking for. I currently feed them outside their tank, Kenny sometimes in the tank while the others are out eating, depending on his mood. They eat live, I try to imitate nature as much as possible, I would feed african soft furs or gerbils, but their super illegal here in CA and with my dad being an ag inspector he would chew my head off... I avoid the hands smelling like food issue by having my bf handle the snakes while I handle the rats. And I have no issue with the time it takes to feed them, it's an event we look forward to every week...

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Ok - sounds like you have considered the possible problems and tried to minimise them. Do all the snakes eat relatively consistently though? One of the things you will also notice we tend to recommend is in tank feeding to reduce stress for the nervous snakes out there. The reasoning for this is fairly basic in that in the wild they seem to operate mostly as ambush predators and you tend to get the best feeding response from a snake hiding inside his hide with his head sticking out in ambush mode. :)

But, as you have found, routine can be a big factor in feedings too and as long as the snake eats consistently I'm all for continuing the same routine until you find a reason not to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Altho I have a lot of pets, I also have a lot of time and pay close attention to them. So far I haven't had any issues with knowing whose poop is whose and who shed what... And I just reach in and take the poop out, no need to move all the snakes to clean.... Same goes with sheds.

Do I have a humidity issue if they are all shedding normal?

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No probably not - that's the main test I use. :)

I still check the numbers but I let the snakes tell me if they need it more humid or not. Do you check each shed for the eyecaps? I find this saves me so much hastle - no more squinting deep into my snakes eyes while it tries to stick its tongue up my nose.

I'm guessing from the "reach in and take the poop out" bit that you are using a substrate such as aspen or coconut fibre?

I was using newspaper - and once you can see how much pee they actually produce spot cleaning just never seems to be enough. :weirdface

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

As far as the health issue, I understand and agree completely that one sick snake means 3 sick snakes. This is the only reason that has ever had me considering separating them. The people who are pro co-housing say if your snakes have all they need and are happy and healthy, why would they get sick?

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Same reason as any other animal on earth gets sick? It's not a concious choice by the sickee. :weirdface

Seriously if someone said something like that to me I wouldn't listen to anything else they ever said. I can see the argument that stress can weaken the immune system as can low temps or lowered or too high humidity but saying that can make them more likely doesn't mean that not having those problems means no animal will ever get sick.

There is an argument that communal housing can cause stress through dominance and competition in fact.

It's just not a cut and dried situation really - almost nothing about keeping animals is. (see below :P )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Please don't take this as me shootinging back at you that all your reason are wrong and this is why (even if it sounds like it, sorry). Just trying to put as much info out there as possible, so people can form as accurate as possible responses.

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No problems with it at all. :)

I changed the wording as it was inside the 9 minute edit window but wouldn't have been by the time I PM'd or posted for you to read - hope you don't mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

What I'd really like to hear is reasons why I can't just leave them all in there and let them mate, have and "raise" their young? (I know snakes don't raise their young and I'm guessing the babies would get eaten if left with the big adults) Has anyone had this happen as well? I'm just a pet owner, not trying to make any money or anything. But I have had many species breed in my care, just not snakes.

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This one is a bit more cut and dried.

Multiple males will combat during breeding season as you discovered causing definate stress to the loser if he cannot get away - since one of the things you are certain of is that you have more than one male that pretty much rules out keeping all three in one tank.

Maternal incubation can certainly happen - but you need to be very specific in the conditions you provide to enable the female to be able to do it successfully. She won't eat at this time and will be skinny as all get go. So by the time she hatches the eggs she probably won't have eaten anything for 90 days or so.

During all this time I suspect the males would be nothing but a royal pain in the butt from the perspective of her and the eggs.

Canibalism has certainly been known in ball pythons. I have a pic but you really don't want to see it - suffice to say both snakes were the same size and both died.

I don't know if they would try and eat the babies - but they would certainly cruise right over the top of them without noticing which doesn't sound too healthy to me.

My big female is 2600g and the new baby is 61g - the phrase "splat" comes to mind. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Gorgeous snake btw

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Why thank you. :D

Two of the nine are out of the egg already but the rest are being sluggabeds. :rolleyes:


dr del

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Another question, i thought bp eggs hatched in the spring?

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It varies.

You can breed them all year round it seems.

In my case it is probably because of the climate here in Scotland but mine always seem to lay later in the year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxxxdopeyxxxx

Do have plans for your racks that you could post?

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I wouldn't build mine the way I did the first time but there are loads of plans in the DIY and caging forums. I was worried about not being able to get the right temps so built in extra space for lights and other junk I didn't need. :rolleyes:

If I replace it the new one could be as much as a foot narrower and 6 inches shallower. :oops:

Here is the thread with pictures of the monstrosity.

And here is the colubrid rack I built using the wood from the old 5 foot ball python vivarium.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxxxdopeyxxxx

Is it a problem to house 2 males or 2 females together?

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Pretty much yes.

Two males are more of a problem but seperate really does seem to work out better.


dr del

Yeah, they all eat regularly. I just check their eyes to be sure they shed right, but I'll check the sheds next time, thanks for the advice. And yeah, I have them on coco fiber.

As far as the getting sick thing, all creatures get sick because their body is weak. If conditions are right and food is nutritious, any creature should be able to handle any disease thrown at it. Yeah, I'm one of those hippie freaks, but I wouldn't believe it if I haven't experienced it in many ways. Now that my dog gets real food, not that garbage we know as dog food, she doesn't get fleas, same with the cat. Now that I've stopped eating processed food and so forth (I could go on for pages on this) I rarely get sick and when I do I'm over it in no time. Mosquitoes rarely bother me anymore, and all my previous allergies are gone. My comment sounded off hand, but is way more complex and thought out then it came across.

As far as the males combating, my guys (well, girl and guy...lol) just slid off to opposite sides of the tank when done. They have enough room to get away, and two spots to hide (I'm working on another....) so the loser can get away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,





Maternal incubation can certainly happen - but you need to be very specific in the conditions you provide to enable the female to be able to do it successfully. She won't eat at this time and will be skinny as all get go. So by the time she hatches the eggs she probably won't have eaten anything for 90 days or so.



dr del

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Tell me more about these conditions? I have a tank that I could put her in while she incubates if I decide the males are going to be a problem. Yeah, going without food that long is going to be hard on her, but if she couldn't handle it, we wouldn't have bp's, they'd of all died out long before we started keeping them as pets.

Thanks so much for your responses btw, I do appreciate your opinion and experience.

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Yeah, they all eat regularly. I just check their eyes to be sure they shed right, but I'll check the sheds next time, thanks for the advice. And yeah, I have them on coco fiber.

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Cool. Only you mentioned the one you just put them in with had been a patchy eater - Just something you might want to keep an eye on. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

As far as the getting sick thing, all creatures get sick because their body is weak. If conditions are right and food is nutritious, any creature should be able to handle any disease thrown at it. Yeah, I'm one of those hippie freaks, but I wouldn't believe it if I haven't experienced it in many ways. Now that my dog gets real food, not that garbage we know as dog food, she doesn't get fleas, same with the cat. Now that I've stopped eating processed food and so forth (I could go on for pages on this) I rarely get sick and when I do I'm over it in no time. Mosquitoes rarely bother me anymore, and all my previous allergies are gone. My comment sounded off hand, but is way more complex and thought out then it came across.

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We have people on here who are very passionate about whole, raw diets both for themselves and their pets. :)

But.

Sometimes you get sick not because your body is weak but rather because the disease is strong. As a doctor friend told me once "healthy people die every day".

I'm kind of an old hippy myself but, while I might try some off the wall cures on occasion (for example a bottle of single malt whisky completely cures the common cold for me ), I do so by my choice. And since the snake cannot tell me he has made that choice and agrees with my methods if it gets ill it goes to the vet.

I am responsible for their health far more than I am for my own. Not a particularly logical opinion I'll grant you but it's mine for good or ill. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

As far as the males combating, my guys (well, girl and guy...lol) just slid off to opposite sides of the tank when done. They have enough room to get away, and two spots to hide (I'm working on another....) so the loser can get away.

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He really can't.

You are discussing animals who can sense heat variations of one thousandth of a degree and scent molecules from a prey item from miles away. The little guy I have in quarantine in the back room can tell I am defrosting food for the rest through 3 closed doors and two closed tubs.

Five feet isn't going to cut it.

I'm not trying to be mean about it but that's simply the facts. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Tell me more about these conditions? I have a tank that I could put her in while she incubates if I decide the males are going to be a problem.

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Well my artificial incubator has temps of 88.5f and humidity of 98-100%

I have never done maternal incubation - they just look too skinny for me to even think about waiting another 60 days to feed them. :oops:

A couple of people have done it successfully on the forum though so you should be able to find the threads with the search function easily enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Yeah, going without food that long is going to be hard on her, but if she couldn't handle it, we wouldn't have bp's, they'd of all died out long before we started keeping them as pets.

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Yep if the female is in a good enough condition she should be able to do it ok. It is important to remember of course that in the wild some of them probably do die so err on the side of caution with the weights etc when deciding if you want to breed them. Generally the female herself won't breed if she isn't up to it but I have had one get eggbound who would have died if I hadn't been there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

Thanks so much for your responses btw, I do appreciate your opinion and experience.

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Not a problem in the slightest.

I am however going to have to go to bed soon to dream of snakes as it is already 6am and I was supposed to be getting up at 8 (soooo not gonna happen ).


dr del

Yeah, Kenny is a patchy eater, but has been better, not worse since I put the others in, keeping an eye on him for sure tho.

Thanks for chatting with me all night, I'm gonna hit the sack myself....

I'm definitely newbie (only had snakes for 11 months), especially compared to Dr. Derek here... I was just thinking, since you're into the natural thingee... bp's naturally are anti-social - they stay away from other snakes as far as they can in the wild. So, since it is not much extra work and space to house them separately, then why not, as it is more natural?

We have 3 bp's and a hognose and they're all in separate tanks (I decided against the rack just because I'm still in the mindset that I'd rather do the extra hard work of keeping them in tanks as opposed to the rack because it looks much nicer in my snake room) and so, I stacked 3 of them like they have in the pet store so they don't occupy a lot of space. Besides me not being able to reach the top tank without a ladder (I'm only 5 foot nothing), it really is not much more work than 1 tank (shop vac is my best friend).

This way, they can thermo-regulate properly (since the tank can only have 1 side hot, the other side not hot, they don't have to bully each other on who gets to stay in the hot side while trying to "escape" from the other). I mean, I even go to the extent of having identical hides on each side of the tank (suggestion about this abound in this site) just so the snake doesn't have to forgo security over temperature (one hide feeling more secure than the other, one hide different temperature than the other, so which does the snake choose, security or temperature)...

Anyway, there are several successes on either way, so this is what Dr. Derek and I prefer, it's up to you what you decide given all the facts from the other side of the fence as long as the snakes are well taken cared of.

If you don't mind me asking, what part of California do you live in? The town I live in has a place called "The Serpentarium" I got my snake from there and most of my other supplies. Some of their employees, particularly a young kid, don't know what they're talking about. He told me that a half log and a 20g tank would be good for a baby BP. I wasted about $150 there, so if you're getting your info from there, you might want to think twice.

I'm sure we're talking about the same place, in Lodi, right? A new kid recently bought the place from the guy who had owned it for years and years. His staff seems like typical pet store staff, doesn't know much at all..... The guy that owned it before knows his stuff, sounds like he's gonna continue breeding for the store, but he has sold it to someone else.

And I'm getting my information from as many sources as possible for that exact reason, it seems that every one thinks that their way is right and everyone else's way is wrong. But few people have really convincing arguments as to why they do what they do.... (Except the ever present argument, it's easier...)

As far as housing them in a natural environment, in the wild they are not separated from each other by cage walls, but by distance, or separate holes. Does anyone know a wild bp's territory size? Everyone seems concerned about them bullying each other or competing for the same space. Couldn't I give them a second hot spot?

Yes, I'm being really hard headed about this, I just want all the info I can get. I will gladly change my setup, I just need to be convinced it really is the best for the snakes. Please tell me I'm wrong, and why, I'm eager to hear what you know....

Yep, that's the place. I won't even go there anymore, even though his feeders are cheaper than Discount Pets. They shut the store down for the entire first week of August, during that week Snickets wouldn't eat, I called them and left a message. Big surprise, they never called me back. Not even after they were open again to even check if she had made it. I utterly despise that place.

IMO, if you continue to have feeding problems, separate at least the one that's not eating to see if that's the problem. You can take the snakes to the serpentarium to have them sex them, but then again I wouldn't really trust anyone except for Bill.

I breed my own rats, so I (almost) always have feeders as well as multiple sizes, and don't have to rely on pet stores, I find them all as unreliable as the The Serpentarium has become.... If I need to buy some rats, I get them from Phil (rodents4u.com) he drives through Modesto on tuesdays, and WAY cheaper then the pet store. Also healthier too.

Kenny's "feeding problems" aren't really problems. We've been together for 4 years, and I know him. Please tell me you other snake owners have this kind of a bond with your guys? Why have a pet otherwise? He's eaten since I put the others in with him and wasn't his usual picky self about it, I'm watching him, but this post is really more about all the snakes being together, and if it's unusual for a female to combat, and how (or if I can) to safely let them do their own thing if she goes gravid and lays a clutch.

Would also like some recommendations on thermostats. Tell me about what you have and if you like it. (Or if anyone has one for sale...) If you hate it I want to know too... lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fidnemed

As far as housing them in a natural environment, in the wild they are not separated from each other by cage walls, but by distance, or separate holes. Does anyone know a wild bp's territory size? Everyone seems concerned about them bullying each other or competing for the same space. ....

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In the wild they have the option of leaving a crowded burrow. You, yourself, said you were having feeding and behavioral issues since housing them together, yet, you also say that you are being hard headed and want someone to justify that it's in the best interest of your snakes to separate them. Well, the fact that you even had to start this thread is your justification. You also said you had the space and means to house a clutch of babies, yet you seem unwilling to separate the adults to even see if the behavior will change. The best advice I can give you is to sit down and contemplate what YOU think is in the best interest of your snakes. Because, for better or worse, you will have to live with your decision...



Rob

Almost everyone on here will tell you that separation is in the best interest of the snakes. Can you keep multiple snakes together? why sure you can. But in my opinion, it is not worth the risks.

They are NOT social animals. They do NOT benefit from being housed together in ANY way. The only reason I can think of for housing them together is because it is "easier" for the keeper (less equipment to buy).

No offense but you seem to think you know everything about these animals. I surely don't, and you probably don't either judging by what you have said in this thread so far.

I can tell you what is happening with your snakes though. The males have reached sexual maturity. They will combat for dominance and they probably won't stop. Do you really think this is a good environment to keep your snakes in? Fighting all the time?

Trial and error has proven to us that housing separately is more beneficial for the health and overall well being of the snakes. They are more confident eaters, more laid back and relaxed, and they don't have to compete with other snakes for the best spot in the tank.



Females don't usually combat. It is usually the males combating for the female. I do have a few questions for you. Is your female (do you even have one?) snake of proper weight to breed? If she does breed and is underweight, she could get egg bound and DIE. What would you do with the babies if they were hatched successfully? Do you have the room to keep up to 6 more snakes?

If you are just "letting nature do its thing" you are being careless. You are risking the health and safety of your animals.

As for thermostats. Get a Johnson controls or Ranco thermostat from reptile basics. This is the most crucial piece of equipment and you really must have a thermostat when running any type of heating device. If not you risk burning or COOKING your animals.

I really can't stress it enough. You are putting your snakes in quite a bit of danger by keeping them together. This is really all just my opinion but that seems to be what you are asking for, peoples opinions.

I was not aware one refusal is considered a feeding issue, and Munene ate this morning... And Kenny is more eager to eat. I'm sorry if I haven't made this clear. The combating has not happened again. And they do have the option to leave a crowded burrow in their current habitat, that is why I have provided multiple hides.

I'm sorry for sounding like a know it all, I was just trying to avoid getting basic beginner tips, I have done research and heard many different opinions. I'm here cause I'm interested in hearing more personal experience information.

Thanks for the brand recommendations, but I was looking for something more personal. Like "I have a _________, and I like/dislike it for ___________ reason."

Thanks for your input!

I have a Johnson controls thermostat and it is reliable.

Dimmers and rheostats result in temp spikes and I don't recommend them.

I don't really know what you are looking for. We state our opinions and you continue to say that everything is OK. It obviously isn't, otherwise you wouldn't have come here seeking advice. We are all here to help, not shoot you down.

I don't know about you, but I am constantly seeking advice, no matter if everything is ok or not. You guys are all very, very anti co-housing, and I figured that being the case you would all have very good reasons for this. I was hoping to pick your brains as to those reasons.

I am looking for what you are providing, (Especially Dr del, thanks!) your opinions based on your experience. Thanks for posting, I really appreciate it, I wasn't meaning to shoot you down, just trying to put as much info out there as possible, so people can form as accurate as possible responses. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I use Ranco thermostats and haven't had any problems. All of my BP's are housed separately because they are all males, and being in the military, I know what it's like with too much testosterone in one room...


Rob

Fidnemed, did you see that picture Derek mentioned about bp cannibalism? It is pretty gross. Just one of the risks of co-habitating.

Hi,

I didn't actually show them as they are kind of gross but, since they are being mentioned here they are;

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...royals1sw3.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...oyals21zh3.jpg

Obviously these images are not mine - I found them via google search on various sites so am unsure of who actually owns them. :confused:

And they still give me the heebie jeebies. :(

And just to be clear, while it obviously happens, I would not call this a common event in any way.


dr del