changing behaviors

[fidnemed]

Oops, sorry about the language... I'll keep it cleaner....

[fidnemed]

Another question, i thought bp eggs hatched in the spring?

[xxxxdopeyxxxx]

Do have plans for your racks that you could post?

[xxxxdopeyxxxx]

Is it a problem to house 2 males or 2 females together?

[dr del]

Hi,

Thanks for the novel, it's the kinda response I was looking for. I currently feed them outside their tank, Kenny sometimes in the tank while the others are out eating, depending on his mood. They eat live, I try to imitate nature as much as possible, I would feed african soft furs or gerbils, but their super illegal here in CA and with my dad being an ag inspector he would chew my head off... I avoid the hands smelling like food issue by having my bf handle the snakes while I handle the rats. And I have no issue with the time it takes to feed them, it's an event we look forward to every week...

Ok - sounds like you have considered the possible problems and tried to minimise them. Do all the snakes eat relatively consistently though? One of the things you will also notice we tend to recommend is in tank feeding to reduce stress for the nervous snakes out there. The reasoning for this is fairly basic in that in the wild they seem to operate mostly as ambush predators and you tend to get the best feeding response from a snake hiding inside his hide with his head sticking out in ambush mode.

But, as you have found, routine can be a big factor in feedings too and as long as the snake eats consistently I'm all for continuing the same routine until you find a reason not to.

Altho I have a lot of pets, I also have a lot of time and pay close attention to them. So far I haven't had any issues with knowing whose poop is whose and who shed what... And I just reach in and take the poop out, no need to move all the snakes to clean.... Same goes with sheds.

Do I have a humidity issue if they are all shedding normal?

No probably not - that's the main test I use.

I still check the numbers but I let the snakes tell me if they need it more humid or not. Do you check each shed for the eyecaps? I find this saves me so much hastle - no more squinting deep into my snakes eyes while it tries to stick its tongue up my nose.

I'm guessing from the "reach in and take the poop out" bit that you are using a substrate such as aspen or coconut fibre?

I was using newspaper - and once you can see how much pee they actually produce spot cleaning just never seems to be enough.

As far as the health issue, I understand and agree completely that one sick snake means 3 sick snakes. This is the only reason that has ever had me considering separating them. The people who are pro co-housing say if your snakes have all they need and are happy and healthy, why would they get sick?

Same reason as any other animal on earth gets sick? It's not a concious choice by the sickee.

Seriously if someone said something like that to me I wouldn't listen to anything else they ever said. I can see the argument that stress can weaken the immune system as can low temps or lowered or too high humidity but saying that can make them more likely doesn't mean that not having those problems means no animal will ever get sick.

There is an argument that communal housing can cause stress through dominance and competition in fact.

It's just not a cut and dried situation really - almost nothing about keeping animals is. (see below )

Please don't take this as me shootinging back at you that all your reason are wrong and this is why (even if it sounds like it, sorry). Just trying to put as much info out there as possible, so people can form as accurate as possible responses.

No problems with it at all.

I changed the wording as it was inside the 9 minute edit window but wouldn't have been by the time I PM'd or posted for you to read - hope you don't mind.

What I'd really like to hear is reasons why I can't just leave them all in there and let them mate, have and "raise" their young? (I know snakes don't raise their young and I'm guessing the babies would get eaten if left with the big adults) Has anyone had this happen as well? I'm just a pet owner, not trying to make any money or anything. But I have had many species breed in my care, just not snakes.

This one is a bit more cut and dried.

Multiple males will combat during breeding season as you discovered causing definate stress to the loser if he cannot get away - since one of the things you are certain of is that you have more than one male that pretty much rules out keeping all three in one tank.

Maternal incubation can certainly happen - but you need to be very specific in the conditions you provide to enable the female to be able to do it successfully. She won't eat at this time and will be skinny as all get go. So by the time she hatches the eggs she probably won't have eaten anything for 90 days or so.

During all this time I suspect the males would be nothing but a royal pain in the butt from the perspective of her and the eggs.

Canibalism has certainly been known in ball pythons. I have a pic but you really don't want to see it - suffice to say both snakes were the same size and both died.

I don't know if they would try and eat the babies - but they would certainly cruise right over the top of them without noticing which doesn't sound too healthy to me.

My big female is 2600g and the new baby is 61g - the phrase "splat" comes to mind.

Gorgeous snake btw

Why thank you.

Two of the nine are out of the egg already but the rest are being sluggabeds.


dr del

[dr del]

Hi,

Another question, i thought bp eggs hatched in the spring?

It varies.

You can breed them all year round it seems.

In my case it is probably because of the climate here in Scotland but mine always seem to lay later in the year.

Do have plans for your racks that you could post?

I wouldn't build mine the way I did the first time but there are loads of plans in the DIY and caging forums. I was worried about not being able to get the right temps so built in extra space for lights and other junk I didn't need.

If I replace it the new one could be as much as a foot narrower and 6 inches shallower.

Here is the thread with pictures of the monstrosity.

And here is the colubrid rack I built using the wood from the old 5 foot ball python vivarium.

Is it a problem to house 2 males or 2 females together?

Pretty much yes.

Two males are more of a problem but seperate really does seem to work out better.


dr del

[fidnemed]

Yeah, they all eat regularly. I just check their eyes to be sure they shed right, but I'll check the sheds next time, thanks for the advice. And yeah, I have them on coco fiber.

As far as the getting sick thing, all creatures get sick because their body is weak. If conditions are right and food is nutritious, any creature should be able to handle any disease thrown at it. Yeah, I'm one of those hippie freaks, but I wouldn't believe it if I haven't experienced it in many ways. Now that my dog gets real food, not that garbage we know as dog food, she doesn't get fleas, same with the cat. Now that I've stopped eating processed food and so forth (I could go on for pages on this) I rarely get sick and when I do I'm over it in no time. Mosquitoes rarely bother me anymore, and all my previous allergies are gone. My comment sounded off hand, but is way more complex and thought out then it came across.

As far as the males combating, my guys (well, girl and guy...lol) just slid off to opposite sides of the tank when done. They have enough room to get away, and two spots to hide (I'm working on another....) so the loser can get away.

Hi,





Maternal incubation can certainly happen - but you need to be very specific in the conditions you provide to enable the female to be able to do it successfully. She won't eat at this time and will be skinny as all get go. So by the time she hatches the eggs she probably won't have eaten anything for 90 days or so.



dr del

Tell me more about these conditions? I have a tank that I could put her in while she incubates if I decide the males are going to be a problem. Yeah, going without food that long is going to be hard on her, but if she couldn't handle it, we wouldn't have bp's, they'd of all died out long before we started keeping them as pets.

Thanks so much for your responses btw, I do appreciate your opinion and experience.

[dr del]

Hi,

Yeah, they all eat regularly. I just check their eyes to be sure they shed right, but I'll check the sheds next time, thanks for the advice. And yeah, I have them on coco fiber.

Cool. Only you mentioned the one you just put them in with had been a patchy eater - Just something you might want to keep an eye on.

As far as the getting sick thing, all creatures get sick because their body is weak. If conditions are right and food is nutritious, any creature should be able to handle any disease thrown at it. Yeah, I'm one of those hippie freaks, but I wouldn't believe it if I haven't experienced it in many ways. Now that my dog gets real food, not that garbage we know as dog food, she doesn't get fleas, same with the cat. Now that I've stopped eating processed food and so forth (I could go on for pages on this) I rarely get sick and when I do I'm over it in no time. Mosquitoes rarely bother me anymore, and all my previous allergies are gone. My comment sounded off hand, but is way more complex and thought out then it came across.

We have people on here who are very passionate about whole, raw diets both for themselves and their pets.

But.

Sometimes you get sick not because your body is weak but rather because the disease is strong. As a doctor friend told me once "healthy people die every day".

I'm kind of an old hippy myself but, while I might try some off the wall cures on occasion (for example a bottle of single malt whisky completely cures the common cold for me ), I do so by my choice. And since the snake cannot tell me he has made that choice and agrees with my methods if it gets ill it goes to the vet.

I am responsible for their health far more than I am for my own. Not a particularly logical opinion I'll grant you but it's mine for good or ill.

As far as the males combating, my guys (well, girl and guy...lol) just slid off to opposite sides of the tank when done. They have enough room to get away, and two spots to hide (I'm working on another....) so the loser can get away.

He really can't.

You are discussing animals who can sense heat variations of one thousandth of a degree and scent molecules from a prey item from miles away. The little guy I have in quarantine in the back room can tell I am defrosting food for the rest through 3 closed doors and two closed tubs.

Five feet isn't going to cut it.

I'm not trying to be mean about it but that's simply the facts.

Tell me more about these conditions? I have a tank that I could put her in while she incubates if I decide the males are going to be a problem.

Well my artificial incubator has temps of 88.5f and humidity of 98-100%

I have never done maternal incubation - they just look too skinny for me to even think about waiting another 60 days to feed them.

A couple of people have done it successfully on the forum though so you should be able to find the threads with the search function easily enough.

Yeah, going without food that long is going to be hard on her, but if she couldn't handle it, we wouldn't have bp's, they'd of all died out long before we started keeping them as pets.

Yep if the female is in a good enough condition she should be able to do it ok. It is important to remember of course that in the wild some of them probably do die so err on the side of caution with the weights etc when deciding if you want to breed them. Generally the female herself won't breed if she isn't up to it but I have had one get eggbound who would have died if I hadn't been there.

Thanks so much for your responses btw, I do appreciate your opinion and experience.

Not a problem in the slightest.

I am however going to have to go to bed soon to dream of snakes as it is already 6am and I was supposed to be getting up at 8 (soooo not gonna happen ).


dr del

[fidnemed]

Yeah, Kenny is a patchy eater, but has been better, not worse since I put the others in, keeping an eye on him for sure tho.

Thanks for chatting with me all night, I'm gonna hit the sack myself....

[anatess]

I'm definitely newbie (only had snakes for 11 months), especially compared to Dr. Derek here... I was just thinking, since you're into the natural thingee... bp's naturally are anti-social - they stay away from other snakes as far as they can in the wild. So, since it is not much extra work and space to house them separately, then why not, as it is more natural?

We have 3 bp's and a hognose and they're all in separate tanks (I decided against the rack just because I'm still in the mindset that I'd rather do the extra hard work of keeping them in tanks as opposed to the rack because it looks much nicer in my snake room) and so, I stacked 3 of them like they have in the pet store so they don't occupy a lot of space. Besides me not being able to reach the top tank without a ladder (I'm only 5 foot nothing), it really is not much more work than 1 tank (shop vac is my best friend).

This way, they can thermo-regulate properly (since the tank can only have 1 side hot, the other side not hot, they don't have to bully each other on who gets to stay in the hot side while trying to "escape" from the other). I mean, I even go to the extent of having identical hides on each side of the tank (suggestion about this abound in this site) just so the snake doesn't have to forgo security over temperature (one hide feeling more secure than the other, one hide different temperature than the other, so which does the snake choose, security or temperature)...

Anyway, there are several successes on either way, so this is what Dr. Derek and I prefer, it's up to you what you decide given all the facts from the other side of the fence as long as the snakes are well taken cared of.