Touchy subject that i need some light shined on....

Disclaimer: Not looking for any flamers here.... I understand what the majority of the members of this forum believe in regards to keeping multiple ball pythons together. If you can't look past that, please do not bother to reply to this thread. I am not a newbee keeper, and these are healthy, thriving snakes. This is a BREEDING subject.... Not a HUSBANDRY subject.

I have RBI CB70 racks. I am keeping my grow out females (future breeders) two per tub. All of these females were over a year old when they started being kept together. All of them are strong feeders and have continued to stay on feed just fine after being housed together. And yes, of course they are separated for their weekly meal. They have been kept like this for many months now without issue.

Now here is the topic.... These females are approaching breeding age and weight... Some of them have already reached a breeding age and weight. When it comes time to breed them, do they have to be separated? Have any of you breeders out there ever introduced a male to two females at once for breeding purposes? What did you observe? what were the results? Did both females go? Did you observe locks with both of the females or did the male end up having a favorite?

I figure it would be good because common sense would tell me that the male would be fine with it. All joking aside, I would imagine he would be even more excited and more focused on the task at hand. Watching the videos from africa... when they guys pull the BP's out of their holes or termite mounds, there is always more then one in the hole.... just like when they pull the clutches of eggs out, there are multiple clutches. So multiple females living together and reproducing seems to be the norm as far as mother nature is concerned.

I figure it may not work so good because what if he is for whatever reason more attracted to one then the other? What if he only lets her have it... then the less attractive one never has a chance to get pregnant?

Any info you can give on this subject without the flames would be greatly appreciated!

I would assume that it would be fine.
However, it would be more difficult to track the breeding between the 3 snakes, IMO. I think that if you put one male in, and you only saw locks with one of the females, you may have a better chance of getting the other female to lock if you put them together alone.
Like, one female would be neglected more often than the other, and one may not produce while the other one does. It just seems more risky to me by giving him one choice instead of 2 each time if he ends up going to the same one each and every time.

I can't look passed it ... if you don't like what I have to say, don't read it ... just sayin. :rolleye2:

Yes, one male will breed with multiple females ... I've bred in groups of 2.3, 2.5, 3.1, and just about eveything in between. You'll have problems when it comes to laying if you keep them together though.

No stop being a cheap skate and get each of those girls their own tub ... it's much better for them and they'll love you for it. :gj:

-adam

I think what your doing is badass and would like to know what would happen?
Wher did you see this video of Africa? You might be on to something..
Ballpython breeding is all about something new......:gj:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Yes, one male will breed with multiple females ... I've bred in groups of 2.3, 2.5, 3.1, and just about eveything in between. You'll have problems when it comes to laying if you keep them together though.

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Thanks for chiming in on this Adam (and everyone else). Yeah i was thinking about that... When you say I will have problems when it comes to laying if they are kept together, what will happen? What have you experienced? like I said earlier, it seems to happen in the wild, but I am sure there isn't a 100% hatch rate very often in the wild either...

Mike, what made you choose to house two females to a tub? Was there some benefit to the animals that prompted you to do so? Or was it because you didn't have enough tub space for all the females to have their own tubs? I'm curious why you'd make that choice, and when I'm curious, I ask. :)

My first season, I put Winston in with 2 females at the same time in order to get one female that I had more receptive to breeding. I had not observed any locks between her and Winston, and so this was one other trick that had been passed on to me.

I only bred them in the 1.2 one time, and after that, it was always 1.1.

Hi,

My male showed no intrest in one of my females this year but locked with one of the others almost as soon as he hit the floor of the tub.

So I put both females in the same tub and introduced him to see if that would help. He locked up with the one he had ignored that night. :gj:

The one he seemed to prefer never did go but the "ugly duck" (from his point of view ) laid 9 eggs for me.

I do only keep the pairs together for one or two days at a time though as I remove the waterbowls and hides when I put them together.

It might be totally pointless but I seem to remember reading that not sharing a waterbowl can help stop any disease spreading - none of them are sick but it seemed a sensible precaution.


dr del

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Mike, what made you choose to house two females to a tub? Was there some benefit to the animals that prompted you to do so? Or was it because you didn't have enough tub space for all the females to have their own tubs? I'm curious why you'd make that choice, and when I'm curious, I ask. :)

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:) an honest question deserves and honest answer.

The answer to your question is really two fold.

1.) For me, it isn't so much a financial issue, but a space and marital issue. We will soon be moving out of this CRAPPY little house. Until then, while I do have money for more racks, I simply don't have the room, or the marital patience required to acquire them. Sure an extra rack could be put here or there, but in all fairness to my wife we are simply out of room at the moment.

2.) In my particular situation there is no reason not to. Will the snakes benefit from living in pairs instead of living by themselves? Who knows? I don't think they will BUT I also don't think it will be detrimental to them, or even be uncomfortable to them in any way shape or form. Keep in mind, these are healthy, established snakes that are showing no sings of stress. They still eat every single time food is offered and are growing just as fast as others in my collection of the same age that are living by themselves.

Please let me add that I am NOT a situation of a newbee keeper keeping two brand new Petco hatchling BP's together (when not even sure of the sex). This is an experienced keeper keeping pairs of same sized established females together without seeing any negative effects.

I must admit I am kinda surprised nobody has commented on the movies from Africa where they pull multiple females, and multiple clutches from the same hole. Please share your thoughts on this too.

Yes. Many breeders put a male with several females in the same "breeding tub" often larger than cb-70 for the entire season, with at least acceptable results.

I'm a control freak, so I do the 1:1 method so I can track exactly what happens, but its not the only way.

Justin

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

:)

1.) For me, it isn't so much a financial issue, but a space and marital issue. We will soon be moving out of this CRAPPY little house. Until then, while I do have money for more racks, I simply don't have the room, or the marital patience required to acquire them. Sure an extra rack could be put here or there, but in all fairness to my wife we are simply out of room at the moment.

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Maybe you should have waited until you moved to a bigger place before getting so many snakes?

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

like I said earlier, it seems to happen in the wild

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In the wild, when one animal is feeling stressed by the presence of another animal it has the option of escaping that stress by crawling away and finding a location where it can be alone. Not so in your current setup.

Ball pythons, like many animals, have dominant/subordinate relationships when they encounter each other ... this is most obvious in male combat during breeding season but plays out in much more subtle ways in female to female relationships and even male to female relationships whenever they encounter each other. The subordinate animals are always under some degree of stress from the presence of an "alpha" or dominate animal. How that stress effects the subordinate animal really depends on the individual.

Stress is bad for ball pythons ... even worse for gravid females ... and the crummy thing about stress is that most of the time you can't see it, smell it, or know it's there one way or the other until it's usually too late ... seems to me, it's better for the animals to take the possibility of stress out of the equation as best as we can. Housing each animal individually guarantees that stress from a dominant cage mate will not be a problem.

If you feel like your current setup is something that works for you, great! ... Just sharing my thoughts on the subject for whatever they're worth.

Blessings,

-adam

Mike, this is a very interesting thread, I am amazed your flame wording has kept people from jumping down your throat.

Can you please post some links of the movies you refer to.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

In the wild, when one animal is feeling stressed by the presence of another animal it has the option of escaping that stress by crawling away and finding a location where it can be alone. Not so in your current setup.

Stress is bad for ball pythons ... even worse for gravid females ... and the crummy thing about stress is that most of the time you can't see it, smell it, or know it's there one way or the other until it's usually too late ... seems to me, it's better for the animals to take the possibility of stress out of the equation as best as we can. Housing each animal individually guarantees that stress from a dominant cage mate will not be a problem.

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If we were that worried about the snakes stress, and its ability to always get away from the presence of another animal #1 we wouldn't be keeping a ball python in captivity in the first place and #2 We would NEVER handle our snakes because that would be very specificly putting them in the situation where they loose the option of crawling away and being alone. In fact, we would never even go into the same room as them where they can feel our presence.

Would love to see some kind of study one of these days that somehow someway proves that ball pythons do not benefit it any way from being around other ball pythons. Until that happens, it is only a theory. Just like my theory that states the opposite.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Maybe you should have waited until you moved to a bigger place before getting so many snakes?

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Why when this is true?

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

:) Will the snakes benefit from living in pairs instead of living by themselves? Who knows? I don't think they will BUT I also don't think it will be detrimental to them, or even be uncomfortable to them in any way shape or form. Keep in mind, these are healthy, established snakes that are showing no sings of stress. They still eat every single time food is offered and are growing just as fast as others in my collection of the same age that are living by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Fearless

Mike, this is a very interesting thread, I am amazed your flame wording has kept people from jumping down your throat.

Can you please post some links of the movies you refer to.

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It's hard to jump down someones throat when they are experienced and educated on the subject... and you don't have a strong argument against him.

Did a 1 minute search and found this. You are welcome to search the web yourself. won't be hard to find. This is a case where two males are living together with one female with lots of eggs present. If you look in the background it looks like the guy is still trying to get a 4th snake out... Males kept together will battle for a female... but here is a case where mother nature seemed to make everything work out just fine.

YouTube - Ball pythons in the wild

WOW those females are huge

That one female was MASSIVE.

Regarding this topic; I totally agree with you in the sense that if it happens in the wild then there is a possibility it can be done in captivity. Who knows maybe 5-10 years down the road everyone will be doing the same; as earlier said breeding is all about finding what works well for you personally, everyone has their own style/ preferences.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

If we were that worried about the snakes stress to that extent, and its ability to always get away from the presence of another animal #1 we wouldn't be keeping a ball python in captivity in the first place

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You missed my point completely. I feel that if you choose to keep a ball python in captivity (which is certainly your choice) doing as much as possible to minimize/eliminate stress is paramount.

You could make an extremist argument for anything ... for example, if we were "that worried" about drunk drivers, we wouldn't have cars ... silly? of course, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything we can to minimize the horrible dangers of drunk drivers on our roads.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

#2 We would NEVER handle our snakes because that would be very specificly putting them in the situation where they loose the option of crawling away and being alone.

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Short handling sessions where the animal is placed back into an enclosure by itself afterward is exactly how a ball python moving away from a stressful situation would behave. Interaction and then escape ... it fits with the animals flight instinct.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

In fact, we would never even go into the same room as them where they can feel our presence.

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Again, this is another extremist position ... the idea of providing a secure enclosure for the animal is to give it an environment where it feels safe when potential threats are present.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Would love to see some kind of study one of these days that somehow someway proves that ball pythons do not benefit it any way from being around other ball pythons.

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It would definitely be in your best interest to speak with a biologist that specializes in animal behavior. I have and have learned volumes towards providing the best environment possible for my animals.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Until that happens, it is only a theory. Just like my theory that states the opposite.

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Very true. There's certainly no way to prove what a ball python is or isn't thinking or feeling ... but, there are some theories that are generally acceptable within the biological and scientific communities and some that aren't. I can theorize until the cows come home that when no people are around my dogs speak to each other in pig latin ... is there a paper or study that shows that it's not possible? maybe, but I haven't seen one ... but that doesn't mean that people that haven't seen those papers or studies will believe my theory. Some things are just generally acceptable ... ball pythons being housed one per enclosure is certainly one of those things.

It's certainly a good discussion, but my personal experience is that when housing ball pythons one per enclosure, they do much better than group housing. Back in the late 90's, I did communal housing for about 5 years (it was a very popular husbandry method for ball pythons at the time) and for the last 10 years or so I've used individual enclosures for each snake.

It's what works for me.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Did a 1 minute search and found this. You are welcome to search the web yourself. won't be hard to find. This is a case where two males are living together with one female with lots of eggs present. If you look in the background it looks like the guy is still trying to get a 4th snake out... Males kept together will battle for a female... but here is a case where mother nature seemed to make everything work out just fine.

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The difference between the wild and captivity is that if one of those snakes decides that it doesn't want to be around the others, it can crawl as far away as it wants to feel safe. They are not forced to live like that, they are making a choice. By permanently housing multiple snakes in a captive environment, you are forcing them to live like that and not giving them a choice.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The difference between the wild and captivity is that if one of those snakes decides that it doesn't want to be around the others, it can crawl as far away as it wants to feel safe. They are not forced to live like that, they are making a choice. By permanently housing multiple snakes in a captive environment, you are forcing them to live like that and not giving them a choice.

-adam

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Thank you for your time Adam. this is a very good and interesting conversation... what forums are all about!

As far as your quote above here, the same exact thing can be said for the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The difference between the wild and captivity is that if one of those snakes decides that it wants to be around the others, it can crawl as close as it wants to feel safe. They are not forced to live like that, they are making a choice. By permanently housing snakes in a captive environment by themselves, you are forcing them to live like that and not giving them a choice.

-adam

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Unfortunately for your position, biologists and herpetologists are in general agreement that other than breeding and opportunistic behavior, ball pythons do not benefit from living communally.

I applaud you for doing your own investigation into the science of ball pythons though ... sometimes it helps when you just see for yourself. :gj:

Good things.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You missed my point completely. I feel that if you choose to keep a ball python in captivity (which is certainly your choice) doing as much as possible to minimize/eliminate stress is paramount.

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I didn't miss your point, I understood it fully. I am suggesting that it is not a FACT that housing a snake permanently by itself is what the snake itself would want. It is a theory, not a fact.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You could make an extremist argument for anything ... for example, if we were "that worried" about drunk drivers, we wouldn't have cars ... silly? of course, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything we can to minimize the horrible dangers of drunk drivers on our roads.

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LOL, I agree. not the best comparison tho.

We don't know that the snakes prefer to be by themselves all the time. What if they prefer to be by themselves half the time and with others half the time? Then who would be right?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Again, this is another extremist position ... the idea of providing a secure enclosure for the animal is to give it an environment where it feels safe when potential threats are present.

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How do you know that they don't feel more secure in their tub when another snake that they are used to living with is in there with them too??? I know the popular THEORY the majority believe in this forum is that when one snake lays on top of one another, one is trying to dominate the other. We all know they love tight spaces, how do we know that them laying on top of one another is not just them making their environment as cramped as possible? After all that is when they feel most secure right?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It would definitely be in your best interest to speak with a biologist that specializes in animal behavior. I have and have learned volumes towards providing the best environment possible for my animals.

Very true. There's certainly no way to prove what a ball python is or isn't thinking or feeling ... but, there are some theories that are generally acceptable within the biological and scientific communities and some that aren't. I can theorize until the cows come home that when no people are around my dogs speak to each other in pig latin ... is there a paper or study that shows that it's not possible? maybe, but I haven't seen one ... but that doesn't mean that people that haven't seen those papers or studies will believe my theory. Some things are just generally acceptable ... ball pythons being housed one per enclosure is certainly one of those things.

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I have read and read and read. I have talked to some of the biggest names in the business (like yourself). I certainly have not been in this as long as you, and certainly do not know as much as you in general. That said, I don't just assume something to be true because the majority believes a theory to be true.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It's certainly a good discussion, but my personal experience is that when housing ball pythons one per enclosure, they do much better than group housing.

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Well, my personal experience is that keeping grow out females in pairs can be done without issue. They can eat as regularly and grow as regularly as siblings that are kept alone. Your welcome to come by my house one of these days so I can show you the proof on that.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Unfortunately for your position, biologists and herpetologists are in general agreement that other than breeding and opportunistic behavior, ball pythons do not benefit from living communally.

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They may not "benefit" from it. But how do we know that?

How do we know that it is a disadvantage to them? Especially when they are found this way in the wild?

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

They may not "benefit" from it. But how do we know that?

How do we know that it is a disadvantage to them? Especially when they are found this way in the wild?

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During breeding season.

Mike, I think you intuitively KNOW that it's less stressful for them and better for them to be housed individually, and you can make up "what if" scenarios all day long, and it becomes an endless cycle.

I can't help but wonder if you aren't challenging what is widely accepted by all the experts with many, many years of combined experience amongst them, to make yourself feel a little better about a housing situation that you have no choice in at this time.

Which begs the question. With so little room available to you right now, how do you intend to house all the babies you hope to produce?

I lived in Benin for 10 months... between 2000-2001

The ball pythons I found in the wild outside of the breeding season were always solitary.

The locals kept adult ball pythons in a large room together... 20-30 adults in approx 15'x15'. Weather conditions were ideal, they were offered plenty of food... very few of them thrived in those conditions...

Take it as you will

Justin

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

I lived in Benin for 10 months... between 2000-2001

The ball pythons I found in the wild outside of the breeding season were always solitary.

The locals kept adult ball pythons in a large room together... 20-30 adults in approx 15'x15'. Weather conditions were ideal, they were offered plenty off food... very few of them thrived in those conditions...

Take it as you will

Justin

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Great information Justin, from real "in the wild" experience!

I going to say this- only as what I've done in general & for breeding.

Generally-
The most important reason I keep each snake in separate housing is to play to the weakest link & for records keeping. Most of my snakes are outgoing, many do not even need or use hides- some are such aggressive feeders they will come out of their enclosures for food & not because they aren't well fed. They feel safe, they've not even felt fear here & for most that IMHO makes a difference.

However some that I've bought seem anchored to their hides & won't even leave them to feed. They are timid & fearful I work with them at their pace, & they do improve. But in summation it's like Alphas & non's. Isolation is what the shy ones' crave.

In breeding,
I have cycled females together without males. I put girls without follicles together with ones who have them & it seems to kick the slower ones into developing follicles.

I have also left male & female pairs together for a whole season (my WORST brreding year BTW), separating only to feed.

From what I have seen, girls need space or they stress. They need breaks during breeding & I get more copulations by cycling as well.

Once gravid, females, especially new moms seem to want hides- even those who normally don't use them otherwise. So I provide hides.

The more secure I can make them feel, the better. That is what dictates what I do.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. The proof will be ultimately in how well they produce & it sounds like you will know if what you are trying is stressful or not.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

They may not "benefit" from it. But how do we know that?

How do we know that it is a disadvantage to them? Especially when they are found this way in the wild?

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Because there are experts in the field of herpetology and animal behavior that have spent decades learning all the ins and outs of these animals and documenting their findings for our benefit.

Field work and first hand accounts like Justins and others that have been to West Africa, captive observations, and experimentation all play a part in how we know.

As tempting as it may be to watch a couple of internet videos and justify keeping two ball pythons in an enclosure together ... that's not science, and it's not helping your animals any.

There have been volumes written by experts about basic and advanced aspects of animal behavior ... you should check some of them out.

-adam

I have heard the in the wild and in captivity discussion before but the huge difference is the animals choice and control of where it wants to be which it can never do in captivity.

In the wild the large majority of ball pythons that actually hatch will die and never make it to adulthood and probably struggle and suffer during this natural process. This is not what we want to accomplish in a captive breeding situation so comparing the two may not always be whats best.

We can think one way or another but until a scientific study is done, keeping accurate records on related animals housed both ways, the clutches split half raised together and half raised separately, and feeding and weights monitored for both ways. There isn't any proof if there is an effect. It is also possible that young animals would be okay while mature adults need their own space or vice versa.There are reptiles where the young do fine in groups and the adults do not.

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Originally Posted by kazboots

but until a scientific study is done

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Animal behavior has been studied for a very long time ... it's not a new science. If you took the time to do some research in the academic world, you'd find volumes of information on the subject.

In the case of reptiles, they're born entirely self sufficient so that they can be ... well ... self sufficient.

I don't think it can be any simpler to explain.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Because there are experts in the field of herpetology and animal behavior that have spent decades learning all the ins and outs of these animals and documenting their findings for our benefit.

Field work and first hand accounts like Justins and others that have been to West Africa, captive observations, and experimentation all play a part in how we know.

As tempting as it may be to watch a couple of internet videos and justify keeping two ball pythons in an enclosure together ... that's not science, and it's not helping your animals any.

There have been volumes written by experts about basic and advanced aspects of animal behavior ... you should check some of them out.

-adam

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I don't know adam.... I have already read some of the volumes you speak of. For example, probably the holy bible of ball python keeping, Ball Pythons: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding by Dave and Tracey Barker.... Did you know that even the Barkers have been quoted as saying that Ball Pythons can be successfully kept together? Sure they pointed out that it was not recommended for the beginner keeper, and that the snakes needed to be of similar size. They also said that males should not be kept together, and females not yet of breeding size should not be kept together with males... But they said it can be done successfully without issue as many keepers have proven over the years.

What about me? I am in no way shape or form a Barker, or any other big name in the business... but what about my collection? I have females that have been house together for a LONG time! Some of those females SIBLINGS I keep by themselves. They are all growing and thriving just the same. Should I just dismiss my own observations and go only with what some of the pros say?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I can't help but wonder if you aren't challenging what is widely accepted by all the experts with many, many years of combined experience amongst them, to make yourself feel a little better about a housing situation that you have no choice in at this time.

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1st to answer your question, I have enough hatchling racks to get me thru at least the next 3 years of breeding.

2nd, I am surprised at your accusation that I am only making an argument to make myself fell better. I also think it is very inaccurate that you claim I am going against what is "accepted by all the experts"

I would appreciate it if you would not judge me in your position of power on these forums, but instead contribute to the conversation at hand.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I don't know adam.... I have already read some of the volumes you speak of. For example, probably the holy bible of ball python keeping, Ball Pythons: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding by Dave and Tracey Barker.... Did you know that even the Barkers have been quoted as saying that Ball Pythons can be successfully kept together? Sure they pointed out that it was not recommended for the beginner keeper, and that the snakes needed to be of similar size. They also said that males should not be kept together, and females not yet of breeding size should not be kept together with males... But they said it can be done successfully without issue as many keepers have proven over the years.

What about me? I am in no way shape or form a Barker, but what about my collection? I have females that have been house together for a LONG time! Some of those females SIBLINGS I keep by themselves. They are all growing and thriving just the same. Should I just dismiss my own observations and go only with what some of the pros say?

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Mike,

I'm not at all talking about ball python husbandry texts ... I'm talking about academic texts specifically on the subject of animal behavior ... there are hundreds and they're not too difficult to find if you're interested.

As far as your collection ... unfortunately the amount of animals you are working with, the length of time you've kept them, your methods of observation, and your lack of a control group make any findings you have just opinion and not science. And ya know what they say about opinions. :rolleye2:

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Mike,

I'm not at all talking about ball python husbandry texts ... I'm talking about academic texts specifically on the subject of animal behavior ... there are hundreds and they're not too difficult to find if you're interested.

As far as your collection ... unfortunately the amount of animals you are working with, the length of time you've kept them, your methods of observation, and your lack of a control group make any findings you have just opinion and not science. And ya know what they say about opinions. :rolleye2:

Blessings,

-adam

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Ah, so I should not take into account the observations from my own collection that I work with daily because it is so small.... and I have not had them long enough to make basic observations.... And the opinion of the Barkers is not qualified enough to support my argument in your eyes...

And coming up with theories based on observation is not science...

Righto.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

1st to answer your question, I have enough hatchling racks to get me thru at least the next 3 years of breeding.

2nd, I am surprised at your accusation that I am only making an argument to make myself fell better. I also think it is very inaccurate that you claim I am going against what is "accepted by all the experts"

I would appreciate it if you would not judge me in your position of power on these forums, but instead contribute to the conversation at hand.

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What does my position here have to do with my opinion and participation in this thread? Have I threatened you in any way, or was that just your feeble attempt to discredit my participation in this thread?

I made no accusations, I said "I can't help but wonder".

Carry on, and good luck with your collection.

Why do you refuse to accept that maybe what you are doing is not up to industry standard?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Ah, so I should not take into account the observations from my own collection that I work with daily because it is so small.... and I have not had them long enough to make basic observations.... And the opinion of the Barkers is not qualified enough to support my argument in your eyes...

And coming up with theories based on observation is not science...

Righto.

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If you comprehend the principles behind the scientific method at all ... then you are correct. :gj:

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Animal behavior has been studied for a very long time ... it's not a new science. If you took the time to do some research in the academic world, you'd find volumes of information on the subject.

In the case of reptiles, they're born entirely self sufficient so that they can be ... well ... self sufficient.

I don't think it can be any simpler to explain.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

-adam

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Animal behavior is a broad term, there are Animal Behaviorist out there that couldn't identify a ball python much less care for one, most animal behaviorist work with the cute and furry, and quite frankly every animal is different, I have volunteered in a reptile lab on a college campus for 7 years now, I have my bachelors in Biology,speciallizing in zoological sciences over the human biology. I have lived in the academic world and have helped care for animals in other's research projects. As far as I know no one has studied the effects of ball pythons living communally in a research study. I will see if someone who still has access to the database can check but reptile research is not as common as cute and furry research. I don't have access now that I only volunteer and am not enrolled in classes.
There is a lot about reptiles that is unknown, or is simply 'well it worked for this person' .The balls in the lab are kept separately presumably because that is what is recommended,also it is easier to track every feeding and keep animals strait in a large collection if everyone has their own cage and card. I am just saying that until I see an actual study to prove one way or the other, and I have heard of babies doing fine communally, I am not sure I can condemn someone who seems to be having good luck doing it a different way. The issue is not whether they NEED to be housed together but if it will harm them to be housed together, and at what age would it become detrimental if at all. Since I have watched plenty of balls grow up separately that obviously works. It may also be an individual thing, some may thrive in groups and others may not do as well. I certainly wouldn't recommend a novice trying it since they would not have the experience to notice a snake is having problems if there were problems as soon as an experienced keeper might.

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Originally Posted by kazboots

I am just saying that until I see an actual study to prove one way or the other, and I have heard of babies doing fine communally, I am not sure I can condemn someone who seems to be having good luck doing it a different way.

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If someone told you that they were having luck force feeding their ball python cooked shrimp would you need to see a study to know that it was wrong?

I don't think that it's about condemning anyone ... from what I can tell it's about decades of accrued communal experience in ball python husbandry versus a couple of youtube videos. Seems like a no brainer to me ... but then again, I'm just a simpleton with a couple of snakes so I'm probably way off base on this one. :rolleye2:

-adam

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Why do you refuse to accept that maybe what you are doing is not up to industry standard?

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Why do you refuse to accept that popular opinion is not fact?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

If someone told you that they were having luck force feeding their ball python cooked shrimp would you need to see a study to know that it was wrong?


-adam

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While I understand the point you are making, It is important to note that the subject we are talking has been observed in nature.


If there were Utube videos of the guys in Ghana catching BP's and it is discovered that there was shrimp or fish in their belly, it would certainly be worthy of a study would it not?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

What does my position here have to do with my opinion and participation in this thread? Have I threatened you in any way, or was that just your feeble attempt to discredit my participation in this thread?

I made no accusations, I said "I can't help but wonder".

Carry on, and good luck with your collection.

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Sorry but I took offense to your "I can't help but wonder" statement that suggests I am only arguing my position to make myself feel better, even though I know I am wrong.

Your position of authority on these forms has nothing to do with it... other then I expected better from you.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

While I understand the point you are making, It is important to note that the subject we are talking has been observed in nature.


If there were Utube videos of the guys in Ghana catching BP's and it is discovered that there was shrimp or fish in their belly, it would certainly be worthy of a study would it not?

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I'm sorry to break it to you buddy, but watching a YouTube video doesn't equate to "observed in nature".

Did you read Justins post or are you ignoring it because it doesn't support your position? Have you spoken with anyone that has been to West Africa collecting? I can put you in touch with people that have if you'd like.

For the vast majority of their lives, ball pythons live alone ... and that is a fact.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Why do you refuse to accept that popular opinion is not fact?

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With my collection, I choose to spend the money, provide my snakes with the best possible care, based on years of experience of many ball python experts. I would never "experiment" to save myself money or expand my collection if I did not have the space to do so. My snakes are way too important to me, to sacrifice their possible well being , just to get more.
1 tub, 1 snake.

You can try to justify your shortcuts all day...I'd rather take the popular opinion.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'm sorry to break it to you buddy, but watching a YouTube video doesn't equate to "observed in nature".

Did you read Justins post or are you ignoring it because it doesn't support your position? Have you spoken with anyone that has been to West Africa collecting? I can put you in touch with people that have if you'd like.
-adam

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Yes I did read Justins post and no I am not ignoring it. I was surprised by it though... I would have figured that if nothing else he would have seen some instances where males and females were found together because that is after all how those cute little babies we all love happen.

I would love to here more from Justin on this. Justin - What months were you there? You never saw a single instance of multiple BP's in one hole? What is your opinion on the Utube video filmed in Ghana? Do you think it was a setup or somehting?

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Yes I did read Justins post and no I am not ignoring it. I was surprised by it though... I would have figured that if nothing else he would have seen some instances where males and females were found together because that is after all how those cute little babies we all love happen.

I would love to here more from Justin on this. Justin - What months were you there? You never saw a single instance of multiple BP's in one hole? What is your opinion on the Utube video filmed in Ghana? Do you think it was a setup or somehting?

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Mike,

Just an FYI ... breeding is a seasonal thing for ball pythons ... during the breeding season males and females are together for a short period of the year to make all those "cute little babies" and then when breeding season ends they go their separate ways and want nothing to do with each other.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Reading this whole thread today I start to think to myself that not only is it probably not the best situation for the animals but not easy on you either Mike. I'd think it would be a major pain to separate those females when its time to feed. Have you ever had any regurgitations. Cause I had one during breeding season my mistake was putting a male in a day after the female took a meal. I believe in one tub one ball its easier on me and the animals.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Your position of authority on these forms has nothing to do with it... other then I expected better from you.

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And I expected better of you and thought more highly of you than to stoop so low as to throw an undercut like:

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I would appreciate it if you would not judge me in your position of power on these forums, but instead contribute to the conversation at hand.

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as I was contributing to the conversation at hand. You and I know each other, have met in person and you know me better than that, or so I thought.

And if my "position of authority" had nothing to do with it, why did you go there? I was not aware that my "position of authority" negates my ability to participate in a thread and share my opinion.

Just because I don't happen to agree with you, doesn't mean I'm using my "position of authority". Sorry you are unable to make the distinction.

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Originally Posted by Fearless

Mike, this is a very interesting thread, I am amazed your flame wording has kept people from jumping down your throat.

Can you please post some links of the movies you refer to.

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Perhaps the TOS and the expectations of this forum for it's membership is what keeps the flaming down. We do not allow jumping down anyone's throat here...never have...never will. :)

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I would appreciate it if you would not judge me in your position of power on these forums, but instead contribute to the conversation at hand.

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Mike, Robin's dealt with you very fairly as far as I have seen in this thread (and yes I have read each and every word posted). Just because she doesn't agree with your point of view is no reason to accuse her or any staff member here of using our "position of power" unjustly. Every single one of us staffers is a member with an opinion, just like you are. Every single one of us has our own point of view, our own experiences and our own voice. Your comments to Robin were uncalled for, rude and unfair in my opinion.

As far as the topic of this thread, personally I could care less how you choose to keep your snakes. For me, I've made decisions on the size of my collection and whether or not to breed them partially based on issues of space. I'd rather house individually (other than during breeding season) and with space at a premium here, that does limit the numbers of my collection. For me, that's just the way it is. I don't compare what happens in the wild to what happens in my house in Toledo. Apples to oranges stuff really to my mind.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I would love to here more from Justin on this. Justin - What months were you there? You never saw a single instance of multiple BP's in one hole? What is your opinion on the Utube video filmed in Ghana? Do you think it was a setup or somehting?

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I was there from November 2000 to Aug 2001. Right through the entirety of the breeding cycle. This experience has been hugely helpful to me because I know EXACTLY what their unique weather cycles feel like!

Youtube video: That shows me that there was more than one bp in THAT hole at THAT time, the eggs give a good idea of what part of the season it was filmed.

No I never saw more than one bp in a hole. That doesn't mean there never is. I wasn't digging for them during laying season either... I was there for other reasons...

My opinion of the bps sharing space in the wild:

1. In my experience they seem to be solitary nearly all of the time in the wild.
2. If they were to share space during the season where they are feeding heavily, they are reducing their odds of getting a meal by 50% or greater depending how many bps there will be going after the rodent that wandered down the hole.
3. Obviously males and females are getting together during breeding season.
4. Toward the end of the breeding season most will be off feed, reducing the competition for food.
5. Once a female is past ovulation they are more likely to hunker down in the first hole they find, regardless of occupants (there is no reason to forage for copulation or feeding) Also moving around too much with the heavy load of eggs would make them more vulnerable to predators
6. There may be far fewer spots that are adventagious for the incubation of eggs, temp and moisture wise. Also the hole has to be big enough to squeeze into with the additional girth. This may be why multiple females are seen sharing space during laying season. simply not enough good spots for them all to have one!

Justin

While not a breeder...
If you feel you must for your stated reasons keep your females together...
I would if you can...once you have bred them, put the females in seperate tubs.
it might be cleaner in the long run, it is easier to tell which male/female is on which eggs for genetics... (if you get one that is sterile or low fertility rates, low egg count, you know which snake it is).
And well, here is one to think about, I know you must have seen pics of one snake eating another, and you are sure it won't happen to you... but.. what if you have the male in with the two females, and one eats the other? Or feels threatened and attacks?
Also.. what if one is having problems passing urates or is egg bound, but you can't tell cause you have multiple snakes in each tub...
Just a thought, your decision, and perhaps getting tubs and UTH's and placing them on top of the racks would be a good solution until you move...
Hope it is all good in the long run, and that breeding is great and successful for the snakes.

Carol