Scale-less BP photo!

To deviate slightly from the debate at hand, what precisely is the difference between the Scaleless that Brian produced and the Derma from several years ago? Other than the Derma having a smattering of scales along its flanks, these appear to have the same anotomical irregularities that the Derma did. Is there an absolute difference between the two lines of animal? And what exactly happened to the Derma? I know it was crazy-big in the community, but I haven't found a thread detailing the situation clearly. Not looking for debate, just honest straightforward answers.


Sent from my cool hide

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Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR

The scaleless Ball python is not for everyone. And that is ok. Debate and discussion is also ok.

But I want to make a point on these quotes above. I understand these types of issues are emotional, and elicit strong feelings, but these kinds of statements are ignorant.

Have you guys BEEN one of the "big guys"? It is so amazingly difficult to run a big company, even just by reptile world standards. It is a daily challenge. Folks don't get into the industry, and have success, to make money. Folks like BHB and Constrictors Unlimited have built a long track record. Their work and effort is based on passion for the animals. It helps if they are strong businessmen, but a lot of these types of guys have spent years spinning their wheels, digging dumb holes (that they then have to get back out of), and/or making slow steady progress through lots of hard work in order to be where they are today, to be classified, often derisively, as a "big breeder".

Mike Wilbanks in particular joined our TRR talk at NARBC Anaheim, discussing the evolution of the industry, and part of his story was the years of struggle to gain a foothold in the industry, selling dollars worth while the guy next to him sold tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. He persevered, over years, and built a fine reputation and a significant company.

There are "bad guys" in the industry, but carelessly tossing folks like BHB and Mike Wilbanks into such a group, much less "all of them" is ignorant, wrong, and disrespectful.

I have heard the trials and tribulations, the frustrations of these particular "big guys" first hand. I have heard it from others as well. I am grateful that they have the drive and passion to keep their nose down and keep doing the best job they possibly can.

(I also have first hand experience with these issues, so it is easy to empathize, and it makes such negative blanket statements so hurtful to hear)

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Very well said Robyn!!! Very well said. :gj:

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by Archimedes

To deviate slightly from the debate at hand, what precisely is the difference between the Scaleless that Brian produced and the Derma from several years ago? Other than the Derma having a smattering of scales along its flanks, these appear to have the same anotomical irregularities that the Derma did. Is there an absolute difference between the two lines of animal? And what exactly happened to the Derma? I know it was crazy-big in the community, but I haven't found a thread detailing the situation clearly. Not looking for debate, just honest straightforward answers.

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one difference is that in the context of the deme ball, there was never a mention of scaleles head BPs. the ones from BHB are produced by scaleless head to scaleless head, for 25% fully scaleless. Also the ones from BHB dont have random scales scattered anywhere, they are 100% scaleless. So i think its different genes at work.

About what happened to the deme ball, i didnt hear anything too specific, what i gather is that something happened to the breeder and the whole collection was lost. we dont even know if the deme was a random singularity or something genetic.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

one difference is that in the context of the deme ball, there was never a mention of scaleles head BPs. the ones from BHB are produced by scaleless head to scaleless head, for 25% fully scaleless. Also the ones from BHB dont have random scales scattered anywhere, they are 100% scaleless. So i think its different genes at work.

About what happened to the deme ball, i didnt hear anything too specific, what i gather is that something happened to the breeder and the whole collection was lost. we dont even know if the deme was a random singularity or something genetic.

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What I've heard is that the original owner of the Derma Ball went to jail and most of his collection died, including the Derma and all of its offspring. The 'Purple Haze' in 2007 died before breeding.

Apparently these guys are eating well, judging by some of Brian's Facebook and YouTube comments to people recently. :)

oh and.... they deserve some credit, after all, this is where the pictures leaked:

http://www.herpnation.com/hn-gallery...zine-issue-14/

one of the leaked images is on the title of this issue of Herp Nation Magazine. Scaleless BPs will also be a big topic in this issue of the magazine.

That is actually not the source of the leak : )

Brian sent a pic to a friend of his that posted it to their Twitter and tagged him, not realizing what a big deal it would be in the reptile community, and that the pics were still unreleased : )

Passionate you say?

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/...psa50c0d57.jpg

I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Passionate you say?

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/...psa50c0d57.jpg

I don't think so.

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Read about his snake "Satan" and why that one snake is kept in a tight cage while his other big ones are kept in the bigger caging right to the left of that rack.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

Passionate you say?

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/...psa50c0d57.jpg

I don't think so.

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You should probably not criticize someone when you don't know the "why" behind what they do. Ignorance is not, in fact, bliss, when it's used in an attempt to harm or discredit others.

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/...psd87e1239.jpg
http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7eb1b13f.jpg

What about these two? Do they also have feeding issues?

What a load of rubbish. Commonly an excuse used by people who cannot be bothered to give adequately sized enclosures to their snakes "Oh it won't feed when it's in a bigger one".

Of course it won't, if all you do is place the snake in a big enclosure with a water bowl. But of course, business comes first, forget that you're keeping snakes in sub par conditions.

I keep all my snakes in large enclosures, guess what, they all feed. Including when my Malayan pit vipers were born, the female fed in a 3ft enclosure even when she was 3 inches - because my enclosure was set up correctly.

Any snake will feed, in any enclosure, if you're prepared to set it up correctly and provide what it needs to feel secure.

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Originally Posted by Crotalids

What about these two? Do they also have feeding issues?

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Satan has feeding issues? I thought he's one to eat Brian if given half the chance. He sure tries everyday when he goes for his daily exercise.

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Originally Posted by anatess

Satan has feeding issues? I thought he's one to eat Brian if given half the chance. He sure tries everyday when he goes for his daily exercise.

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I think that's why he "apparently" keeps Satan in such a small enclosure, because he won't eat if he's in a larger one.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard....a snake wont feed in a larger enclosure. I do not have a ton of experience, but the 2 bps I owned in the past were purchased small (less than 12inches) and went directly into a 4 foot long tank and I never had feeding issues with either one of them.
Those poor snakes.....that looks like animal abuse to me. I'm all for simple enclosures, but they should be an appropriate size!

Ya I like Brian, I like snakebytes, and I love how much knowledge he shares with the community, but those enclosures are WAY to small for snakes of that size. Those huge freedom breeder racks are nice, and ya they are like $2k a piece, and he probably has $30k worth of them just in that row alone, but for that kind of money he could have housed them in something a little more appropriate. How does a snake thermoregulate when it is as big as the enclosure it's housed in?


Sent From an Enclosure

He moved Satan into a large enclosure. Satan would strike at the glass/plexiglass/whatever the front is made of, and was hurting herself over and over in addition to not eating.

Is THAT better for her?

I sure don't let MY animals harm themselves because I insist that I know what they need better than they do, and stick with what clearly doesn't work so that some internet cowboy can't come along and try to hang me for not doing it his stubborn way.


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Originally Posted by Bugmom

He moved Satan into a large enclosure. Satan would strike at the glass/plexiglass/whatever the front is made of, and was hurting herself over and over in addition to not eating.

Is THAT better for her?

I sure don't let MY animals harm themselves because I insist that I know what they need better than they do, and stick with what clearly doesn't work so that some internet cowboy can't come along and try to hang me for not doing it his stubborn way.


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Probably because 'Satan' was stressed out, he probably put her into a larger tank with no hides just a water bowl.

You carry on brown nosing and thinking that he is a god. You're clearly deluded if you think there is any good reason to keep any animal that large, in an enclosure that size.

Irrespective of Satan's case, what about the other two pictures i posted? Didn't have anything to say about them? Or i suppose they also 'smash their head against the glass'.

I'm not speaking on the other two because I'm not aware of why, specifically, those two are in those enclosures.

If you have an issue with Brain, why don't you take it up with Brian? He's quite approachable.

Unless your style is anonymously criticizing people from the safety of an internet forum, in which case, carry on.

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Originally Posted by Bugmom

I'm not speaking on the other two because I'm not aware of why, specifically, those two are in those enclosures.

If you have an issue with Brain, why don't you take it up with Brian? He's quite approachable.

Unless your style is anonymously criticizing people from the safety of an internet forum, in which case, carry on.

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There is no reason any of the big snakes should be in an enclosure that size, it's that simple. If the person who kept them cared about the snakes and is 'passionate' they would not keep them in those enclosures.

If it is true that she was hitting her head against the front, it's quite simple, cover it, or use a viv that has no see through front - where is all this masses amount of knowledge he has? It's a load of rubbish to be honest. Besides it's evident he is talking out of his arse, as all his other big snakes are in similar sized enclosures.

What's the point? It's not a private keeper who would be willing to change his ways to improve the conditions his animals are in. This is a business man we are talking about, money comes first - evidently. Maximise the amount of snakes by keeping them in the smallest enclosures you can. I'm surprised so many people stick up for him on with regards to this, it's disgusting.

It's none of your business, and you're not keeping the animal. It's as simple as that. Email or call BHB about the issue and complain.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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Originally Posted by spider_ball

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard....a snake wont feed in a larger enclosure.

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Actually its quite common for a snake to go off feed if the enclosure is too large and too open.

Open spaces make them insecure. Insecurity causes stress. An extremely stressed animal won't eat. (In many species really. Not just reptiles...)

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Ya I like Brian, I like snakebytes, and I love how much knowledge he shares with the community, but those enclosures are WAY to small for snakes of that size. Those huge freedom breeder racks are nice, and ya they are like $2k a piece, and he probably has $30k worth of them just in that row alone, but for that kind of money he could have housed them in something a little more appropriate. How does a snake thermoregulate when it is as big as the enclosure it's housed in?


Sent From an Enclosure

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Those enclosures are boa enclosures. I also agree that its too small for a retic.

BHB has heated ambient temps and no hotspots. That's why the animals don't need to thermoregulate. Many people have heated rooms to 85 degree for ball pythons, for example, with no hotspot.
When you have a lot of animals, its safer and more efficient to heat the room than give everyone their own heat source. Less of a fire and electrical hazard.

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Wow....i thought we were talking about the scaleless bp??? At least thats what the thread title lead me to believe....:what:

sent from my incubator

oh no..... the old jealousy & greed-driven discussion once again rears its ugly head.

some people just dont get correlation and causation differentiated due to some well-known hypnotic effects of 6- and 7-digit-numbers followed by a dollar sign.

They dont understand how someone can make millions while not being in it primarily for the money. So they get at it with that preconceived notion that this is impossible, that someone who is monetarily successful must be in it for the money because alternatives are impossible.

With that preconceived notion deeply rooted in the belief-system, evidence to the contrary gets dismissed. (for example, if its all about the money, why is Satan still alive? A super-agressive behaviorally challenged giant snake that cannot be bred and cannot be re-homed because it cannot be tamed. Yeah, makes total economic sense to house it indefinitely instead of euthanizing it.)

I could, again, list some more indications that show that Brian is not in it for the money. But it wont convince these that already made up their mind.

Some people, for example, just cannot be convinced that Bill Gates is a good guy and not greedy. That his children will only get 10 million dollars each and that over 99.5% of the wealth of Bill and Melinda Gates will go towards charity when they die and that tens of billions (yes with a B) were already given to charity doesnt matter. For some people, facts like that just dont compute.

Hasn't the whole controversy over Satan's enclosure been played out to death last year? Why do you have to dreg it up again when it's completely off topic to this post?

How about instead of taking petty pot-shots and making wild claims about someone you've obviously never met or spoken to, why don't you write a reasonable email to the man with your concerns? No? That's right, it's much easier to bash and name-call behind an anonymous internet handle in a place he'll probably never read it. This is the kind of nasty, elitist attitude I hate about the herp community. Instead of actually trying to be helpful it's all about needing to feel superior and putting others down.

For a supposed greedy only-cares-about-profits dude, Brian spends an awful lot of time helping out new reptile keepers who have never spent a cent with him. It's one of the big reasons I get rather defensive about the bashing. I'm willing to bet none of the 'haters' would be willing to constantly bend over backwards to help people. It's much more fun to stroke their own ego I guess.

Oh, and Satan isn't even in that enclosure anymore AFAIK. Last I saw from SBtv she's in something else. I'd go look but I'm on mobile.

That being said, I've been seeing a bunch of awesome pics of people with the scaleless hatchling at Tinley. Anyone seen it for themselves yet? People seem to like it.

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post / link some pictures here please :)


According to facebook, the scaleless BP got introduced to the public today. There should be tons of images and footage out there now!

Does it shed

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Originally Posted by NYHC4LIFE8899

Does it shed

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Yes.


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Figured,wanted to ask anyway,cause you never know

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Yes.


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Scaleless snakes shed like normal snakes, but its all smooth and weird. It was described a bit like sunburn peel.

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Its probably similar to lizard or gecko sheds.

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I bet out of all the people that have negative and distasteful things to say about Brian.....NONE will have the balls to even say anything to the man face to face at a show. All these internet crap talkers on here....so sad.

That man will forget more about reptiles than a lot of the ones talking crap will ever know in their lifetime.

Anyhow, I myself can't wait to see the scaleless in person!

I know a guy who used to have a pair of scaleless water snakes, they did need a little help shedding but otherwise were fine in every other way. I believe that both snakes lost the tips of their tales due to stuck sheds cutting off the circulation.

I saw the scaleless BP today in Tinley. It looks great in person.

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Originally Posted by Gerardo

I saw the scaleless BP today in Tinley. It looks great in person.

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I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I spoke to Brian about it, they are both eating and doing fine so far. Imagine the banana scaleless?! Lavender albino pied scaleless? It's going to get crazy, I can't wait to see it.

Was he letting people hold it? I wanna know what it feels like...

sent from my incubator

I saw it yesterday. Kinda looks cool but I'm not a fan.

Where are the pictures, people!

I think there are a couple of shots of the camera but I haven't uploaded them yet. He was still in the display rack. Left when he was getting it out because I figured everyone would swarm :p

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Originally Posted by anatess

Where are the pictures, people!

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I took this one while I was there. It looked like some professional photos were being taken too. They will probably be posted soon. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/vubatu7u.jpg

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Was he letting people hold it? I wanna know what it feels like...

sent from my incubator

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I didnt see anybody holding it. I also want to know what it feels like.

Sweet! And i bet everyone was swarming :p

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by adamsky27

I took this one while I was there. It looked like some professional photos were being taken too. They will probably be posted soon. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/14/vubatu7u.jpg

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Amazing almost looks fake.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Was he letting people hold it? I wanna know what it feels like...

sent from my incubator

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It feels really weird! It looks/feels like shark/dolphin skin. Wrinkly, rubbery, and weird. I can't describe it any better than that!

BHB brought the male scaleless and scaleless hets which were scaleless heads. I have pictures of them on my camera I can put up once I get home.

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Wow...did it feel anything like people skin??? And soooo awesome that he let you touch it!!! Id die if i met him and he let me touch it! I still have yet to meet Brian :rolleyes:

sent from my incubator

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Id die if i met him and he let me touch it! I still have yet to meet Brian :rolleyes:

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I haven't posted on this site in months I think, but for some reason thought to check it out tonight. I'm glad I did, so I could reply to this post one post as such:

"lol."

Do we still have the out of context thread somewhere?

I want to know if it still has eyecaps and if it can still move properly.
Boas go without heat pits, and so do woma pythons as well as scaleless rattlesnakes. Considering some morphs are actually blind (super lesser BEL anyone?) I don't see that huge of a deal there. (I believe the skin on that section of the face is what actually picks up the infrared, therefor until it's tested in the lab, I wouldn't rule it out.)

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I haven't posted on this site in months I think, but for some reason thought to check it out tonight. I'm glad I did, so I could reply to this post one post as such:

"lol."

Do we still have the out of context thread somewhere?

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Lol....yeah, that thread is still layin around somewhere..;)

sent from my incubator

He had it out before the show so we got to hold/touch/etc.

Brain only brought the male. There was a male and a female
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps75146b99.jpg

Cropped/zoomed. It still has a handful of scales here and there
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps517d62c0.jpg

And the hets apparently. Scaleless heads
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps00476767.jpg