Will My CO2 Chamber Kill Hatchling Balls Too?

Sorry but having used the CO2 method of a small amount to put them to sleep and then a "flood" to kill them myself, on my own rats, in my own process I can say they did not suffer in any visible manner at all.

Giving them some CO2 made them a little wobbly and they laid down. I added more and they stopped moving completely, at which point I "flood" a lot in and within a moment they were dead.

There was NO thrashing, gasping, spasms or any indication of pain or distress. Yes, if you drop a rat into CO2(pure CO2) then it will be painful and the rat will struggle. It doesn't happen that way if you do it right.

The American Humane has researched thoroughly the manners of euthanasia and you can look up all the studies. The accepted forms they endorse include proper CO2 and pithing the brain.

If I have to kill a python, I would probably do it with a large hammer strike to the head in the brain pan. Instant death. Yes, it's brutal. But yes, it instantly destroys the brain. No brain = no pain. Pithing is the more focused version, where you scramble JUST the brain. I worry that trying to enter the brain cavity, I may miss the brain(it's not very large) and cause pain. Thus the hammer strike. If someone is more confident in hitting the brain with the first attempt at pithing, it would indeed be another instant death, equaling no pain.

Getting pure nitrogen, nitrous oxide, or other gases is not so easy as running down to the store to pick up a canister. If you have access, fine. BUT if nitrogen flooding is so much more humane and cheap and easy, then why wouldn't the American Humane and all the labs and such being using it already?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

CO2 won't work well as others have said. Reptiles go through spans of apnea, where they don't need air. So it would take a very very long time to euthanize via CO2.

Freezing is inhumane and very painful for the reasons stated before.

I agree with everything Mr Lang and Kitedemon has said. They are spot on with their posts.

The best way for humane at home euthanasia is blunt force trauma to the brain. When taken to a vet, they will do an overdose of anesthesia or a cardiac puncture to the heart.

Kurtilein, even when you have been provided with scientific sources and studies(in other threads) in regards to humane Co2 euthanasia, you still fight facts with your speculation. I don't understand why you can't accept that Co2 is fine to use for rodents if done correctly. :confused:

---

i have seen studies about how to kill rhodents with CO2, however, i have never seen a study comparing CO2 to alternatives like nitrogen, helium or nitrous oxide. I say nitrogen, a noble gas, or nitrous oxide are superior, and noone has disproven that claim so far. I see them as studies about how to kill animals with a poorly chosen and problematic gas, showing that if you do everything right it can still be humane, by looking at the reactions of animals that cannot talk. I think the use of CO2 is purely based on tradition and on the fact that it works a bit faster than nitrogen or a noble gas.

Also the studies dont take into account human experience of exposure to CO2. They look at how rhodents/animals react, and when there are no apparent/conclusive signs of distress they think its fine. But that immediately flooding with pure CO2 does cause distress is obvious. Only humans can talk, and human judgement about the different gases is crystal clear. There we have test subjects that can precisely tell you how different gases feel, in modern english.

so, go ahead, show me studies that include a comparison of different gases and/or that include human experience. When i can get 4 or 5 different gases in the same pressurized cans at about the same price, i know i wont pick CO2, and i think noone should.

There are comparison studies out there; however, I don't know why you'd wanna see them when it's been determined that using CO2 is a perfectly humane way to kill rats...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurtilein

[
And the prime alternative would be nitrous oxide.

---

i would imagine so. ever inhaled nitrous oxide? might actually make their demise pleasurable rather than just painless. lol if not pleasurable, so loopy they wouldnt care what was going on.

Ok. I've been on vacation without a pc and internet access till now.
If more sources are needed, I can find more.

Nitrogen, argon(a noble gas), and CO may be acceptable for euthanasia, but according to the University of Texas, "there is no clear advantages, which is why they are rarely if ever used."
If they and the other gases you listed were more effective and humane, then CO2 wouldn't be the standard gas of choice for euthanasia.
I work in a laboratory at one of the top research universities, not to mention the number one veterinary school in the US. I have euthanized a vast amount of rodents in the lab and at home with my own personal feeder colony. I have seen and done this first hand. CO2 is humane if administered correctly. Please refer to the IACUC and AVMA protocols for responsible euthanasia use. CO2 isn't used based on 'tradition'. CO2 isn't used just because it is fast. Euthanasia doesn't mean fast. Euthanasia is the act of inducing humane death in an animal by a method that induces rapid loss of consciousness and death with a minimum of pain, discomfort or distress..... It's used because it has been proven as humane method of euthanasia. (Equal or more so than other gases. However, they can be used in combination with CO2.)

Some studies that show adverse effects of Nitrogen/Argon euthanasia:

Quote:

---

Our study indicates that rats are averse to argon-induced hypoxia over a range of flow rates, and the physiological effects of hypoxia become aversive at approximately 7.7% O2. These results suggest that argon is not a suitable alternative to CO2 for the euthanasia of rats.

---

I. Joanna Makowska, Lee Niel, Richard D. Kirkden, Daniel M. Weary, Rats show aversion to argon-induced hypoxia, Applied Animal Behaviour Science, Volume 114, Issues 3–4, 1 December 2008, Pages 572-581, ISSN 0168-1591, 10.1016/j.applanim.2008.04.005.

Quote:

---

Specific behaviors were observed that might relate directly to pain and distress during gas exposure. No rats in either the argon or CO2 treatment group showed any obvious escape behaviors during gas exposure. Shaking occurred in 3 animals during the baseline period and in one animal from the argon treatment group during gas exposure. Grooming of the face was observed in one animal during CO2 exposure and in 2 animals during argon exposure. During argon exposure, rats showed adverse behaviors before they appeared to lose consciousness. All of the argon-exposed rats showed hyperreflexia or seizures; these occurred both before and after recumbency without tone. In addition, 3 of 7 argon-exposed rats showed back arching with an open mouth, which was termed abnormal gasping. This behavior always occurred before recumbency without tone.

---

Burkholder TH, Niel L, Weed JL, Brinster LR, Bacher JD, Foltz CJ. 2010. Comparison of carbon dioxide and argon euthanasia: effects on behavior, heart rate, and respiratory lesions in rats. J Am Assoc Lab Anim Sci 49:448–453.

Quote:

---

It has been proposed that Ar is superior to CO2 because it is not irritating to animals and therefore does not produce distress. However, we observed that approximately 100% Ar produced significant increases in MAP within the 1st minute of exposure suggesting that exposure to high concentrations of Ar may be stressful. In fact, the severe hypoxia or anoxia resulting from breathing 100% Ar is expected to be stressful. If this expectation is true, then exposure to approximately 100% N2, which also is expected to produce severe hypoxia or anoxia, likely is equally stressful

---

(MAP, mean arterial blood pressure)
According to the Journal of the American Association for Laboratory Animal Science, Volume 45, Number 2, March 2006 , pp. 21-25(5), they say that CO2 is effective for inducing unconsciousness and euthanasia. Ar appeared to be effective, but produced hyperflexia and tachycardia effects. They also concluded that N2 is not satisfactory for euthanizing rats or inducing unconsciousness in them.


Studies that show CO2 with no adverse effects:

Quote:

---

Our results showed more rapid falls in pulse rate and blood pressure in rats euthanized in a chamber precharged with carbon dioxide (CO2), when compared with rats euthanized more slowly, but death still took over 5 min in the former group. There was no behavioral evidence of pain or distress in either group during euthanasia.

---

Smith W, Harrap SB. 1997. Behavioural and cardiovascular responses of rats to euthanasia using carbon dioxide gas. Lab Anim 31:337–346. [PubMed]

Quote:

---

A method of inducing euthanasia by carbon dioxide (CO2) inhalation in the home cage of an animal is described and tested for distress by behavioural as well as by hormonal measures. There were no signs of distress by behavioural or by hormonal changes.

---

Hackbarth H., Küppers N., Bohnet W. (2000). Euthanasia of rats with carbon dioxide – animal welfare aspects. Lab. Anim. 34, 91–96. doi: 10.1258/002367700780578055. [PubMed]


And another note, I've inhaled nitrous oxide for an oral surgery. It's probably a personal thing, but it did nothing for me. :\

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurtilein

i have seen studies about how to kill rhodents with CO2, however, i have never seen a study comparing CO2 to alternatives like nitrogen, helium or nitrous oxide. I say nitrogen, a noble gas, or nitrous oxide are superior, and noone has disproven that claim so far. I see them as studies about how to kill animals with a poorly chosen and problematic gas, showing that if you do everything right it can still be humane, by looking at the reactions of animals that cannot talk. I think the use of CO2 is purely based on tradition and on the fact that it works a bit faster than nitrogen or a noble gas.

Also the studies dont take into account human experience of exposure to CO2. They look at how rhodents/animals react, and when there are no apparent/conclusive signs of distress they think its fine. But that immediately flooding with pure CO2 does cause distress is obvious. Only humans can talk, and human judgement about the different gases is crystal clear. There we have test subjects that can precisely tell you how different gases feel, in modern english.

so, go ahead, show me studies that include a comparison of different gases and/or that include human experience. When i can get 4 or 5 different gases in the same pressurized cans at about the same price, i know i wont pick CO2, and i think noone should.

---

Sorry, but I think that the burden of proof is on you for this one.

Oh baby, TKO. Nikki's lookin gooooood after landing that hit!

Freezing is recommended for smaller reptiles (under 1 Lb/454 grams) only. Larger reptiles are injected for euthanasia.
Some people inject the smaller reptiles due to ice crystallization being potentially painful if a state of stupor is not present when this occurs.

Seeing the use of multiple peer-reviewed journal articles in order to make your case makes me warm and fuzzy inside. :love:

Well done Nikki! :gj:

BB gun for 300 Alex

Since some dudes feel bullets are just fine....this way it won't be as dangerous and its powerful enough to do the job.