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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zincubus
Just to add a little balance to proceedings , anyone checking my profile will see that out of about 300+ posts I've made in here ...... there are roughly 60 THANKS plus about 5 RED " thumbs down " ones . The red ones were all in theese LIVE feeding threads which is telling in itself .
Could that be because we have to continually remind you that you should not speak on a subject YOU know nothing about other than Google?
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by the I-Many
I got worried once the rats started having claws and scratched my bp in the face. So i started putting them in a bag and SLAMMING THEM AGAINST THE WALL. Yeah, it gave me the chills yhe first couple times but so does nature and life as we currently understand it. CHOO CHOO, BABY.
This train needs to come off the tracks.
Cruelty to feeders is not acceptable, and improper euthanasia is definitely cruel. A proper live feeding results in a quick and easy death with little or no danger to a snake; a stunned feeder is both wildly inhumane and an unnecessary risk to the snake (those feeders come out of a stun scared and in defend mode, the danger is real). I'll advocate feeding live, f/t, f/k, but never stunned.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl
Could that be because we have to continually remind you that you should not speak on a subject YOU know nothing about other than Google?
It means that FIVE people didn't like what I have posted on the LIVE feeding threads last night but another 60 other people have liked something I've written in all the other threads over the last few months or so.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zincubus
It means that FIVE people didn't like what I have posted on the LIVE feeding threads last night but another 60 other people have liked something I've written in all the other threads over the last few months or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zincubus
Right , as I promised before .... I'm done in these LIVE feeding threads and won't contribute to any other LIVE feeding threads in the future . I'll never understand why you guys feed LIVE but that's life .
Just to add a little balance to proceedings , anyone checking my profile will see that out of about 300+ posts I've made in here ...... there are roughly 60 THANKS plus about 5 RED " thumbs down " ones . The red ones were all in theese LIVE feeding threads which is telling in itself .
Anyways , apologies to anyone I may have inadvertently annoyed or insulted . If that has occurred I can only say that it was unintentional .
Trust me your rep point have nothing to do with you feeding practices, and everything to do with your “I am better than you attitude” and putting other people’s choices down.
I bet if you were a little more tolerant you would not run into this type of issues.
BTW this is the last post on the subject of rep point because this is not the place if you are compelled to address/complain about rep point you MUST do so here http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ion-Discussion if not any additional comments regarding rep points WILL BE DELETED
Quote:
If any member feels compelled to make a public statement about any reputation comment they have recieved, it must be made in this thread. Any such statements made in other threads, or new threads started for that purpose will be deleted without warning or notice. This sort of public statement does NOT mean your complaint will recieve any staff attention. If you have a genuine concern about a rep comment you have recieved, you must address it in private with the staff.
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Yes you are the only person who feels bad when they step on a snail. That's dumb. Go for a hike you kill all manner of little critters and plants just walking a path, do you just cry the whole time?
An animal is going to die in order to feed your snake. This is a fact.
If you raise rodents yourself you have three options, fresh killed, kill and freeze, or live.
In my opinion there is no difference between feeding fresh killed and frozen thawed. The only difference is that you can get frozen thawed at the store. Since OP didn't answer my question about fresh killed I have to assume his issue is not live vs dead but he doesn't want to kill anything or see it die.
That's fine and its a choice anyone has, but don't act morally superior.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah
Trust me your rep point have nothing to do with you feeding practices, and everything to do with your “I am better than you attitude” and putting other people’s choices down.
I bet if you were a little more tolerant you would not run into this type of issues.
BTW this is the last post on the subject of rep point because this is not the place if you are compelled to address/complain about rep point you MUST do so here http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ion-Discussion if not any additional comments regarding rep points WILL BE DELETED
I've no idea why your being so tetchy about my last post .... I was simply apologising to whoever and highlighting the fact that I have ten times more positive thanks than the few negatives I'd received plus the negatives were understandably over the last 24 hours in connection with the LIVE feeding threads .. I was not complaining about anything .
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Remember this? Remember when you last threatened to stop posting?
Remember the reason why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zincubus
It's really not a case of thinking people are being mean to me it's more a case of noticing that many members just don't seem to be very tolerant of others viewpoints and they seem kinda blinkered - as if their way is the only way and any other option is simply wrong or stupid and word their replies to that effect . I disagree with many things I've read but I'd never just write down that someone has been talking nonsense . I'd maybe offer an alternative option but add that it was simply my opinion .
Maybe it's just a cultural difference ?!
I've often thought that the word "irony" comes from the fact that irony sometimes feels like an iron bar hitting you in the face. People being mean to you, people not tolerant of your viewpoints, their way being the only way....ironic and prophetic. Less than three months later, here you spend 11 pages defending statements that fit the very thing you were lamenting.
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I used to think feeding f/t was morally superior back before I had snakes, and probably when I first had them as well. That all came crashing down around me when my then-baby BCI wouldn't eat f/t to save his life. Literally.
It's amazing how okay I got with feeding live in that particular instance, and after that I paid WAY more attention to what people with more experience in this hobby have done with regard to feeding, both live and f/t. Feeding live can be done well, and from my observation most on these forums who feed live do exactly that.
All my snakes currently eat f/t and I'm honestly grateful for that, because I'm a total pansy and I already apologize to the frozen food as I'm defrosting it; I can't imagine my freakout level if I had to feed live. But if I needed to do it for one of my guys to survive, I'd absolutely go there, and I'd be darned grateful for the expertise of the posters here for giving me the knowledge to do so in a safe and humane fashion.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
Remember this? Remember when you last threatened to stop posting?
Remember the reason why?
I've often thought that the word "irony" comes from the fact that irony sometimes feels like an iron bar hitting you in the face. People being mean to you, people not tolerant of your viewpoints, their way being the only way....ironic and prophetic. Less than three months later, here you spend 11 pages defending statements that fit the very thing you were lamenting.
That was Zinc's post I refered to many pages back. And why I suggested that he may stirring the pot since we had settled the issue 3 months ago.
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The F/T rats were alive at one point, then someone had to kill them, correct? Do they comfort and tuck them in at night before they kill them? I raise my own rats and they are cared for very well until feeding time.....THEN I FEED LIVE. I have tried F/T before and to me it's a big hassle. Live is my choice, but it's not for everyone.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zincubus
..........
I'm only voicing an opinion shared by others in the UK and many , many other countries .
It's hardly a one man mission ..
The thinking of Scots, Brits, and Euros, are typically opposite of what MOST Americans think anyway.
We left your island and fought the War of 1776 to be free of restricted thinking and to go our own way and that is how we want it to stay.
We sure don't need, nor asked, or want Euro's shooting their hypocritical and judgmental arrows across the pond in their mind of moral superiority!
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinz
The thinking of Scots, Brits, and Euros, are typically opposite of what MOST Americans think anyway.
We left your island and fought the War of 1776 to be free of restricted thinking and to go our own way and that is how we want it to stay.
We sure don't need, nor asked, or want Euro's shooting their hypocritical and judgmental arrows across the pond in their mind of moral superiority!
AHEM!! :mad:
Don't make me feel judge-mental. You might not like the result. :taz:
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
I took issue with someone feeding a young, live Ball Python to a Kingsnake in this forum. I voiced displeasure, and was told "that's the cycle of life," and "educate yourself on the dietary requirements of Kingsnakes" etc. While I'm perfectly aware kingsnakes eat other snakes in the wild, I felt feeding a Ball Python (or any snake) to a Kingsnake in captivity to be probably unnecessary. I asked for literature on why Kingsnakes ** require ** other snakes in their diet, and to date, no such documentation has been furnished.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by scalrtn
I took issue with someone feeding a young, live Ball Python to a Kingsnake in this forum. I voiced displeasure, and was told "that's the cycle of life," and "educate yourself on the dietary requirements of Kingsnakes" etc. While I'm perfectly aware kingsnakes eat other snakes in the wild, I felt feeding a Ball Python (or any snake) to a Kingsnake in captivity to be probably unnecessary. I asked for literature on why Kingsnakes ** require ** other snakes in their diet, and to date, no such documentation has been furnished.
Sorry....fresh out of butt-hurt balm.
Do your own research. Sad when you gotta rely on others to provide you with knowledge.
However since you can't or won't, 73% of a kingsnakes diet is Squamate. 11% is mammalian. The rest is avian or eggs.
There is plenty of evidence in other primarily Squamate feeding snakes that show that the fat and cholesterol levels in mammals lead to obesity, hepatic lipids sis and a host of other health issues.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiploder
Sorry....fresh out of butt-hurt balm.
Do your own research. Sad when you gotta rely on others to provide you with knowledge.
However since you can't or won't, 73% of a kingsnakes diet is Squamate. 11% is mammalian. The rest is avian or eggs.
There is plenty of evidence in other primarily Squamate feeding snakes that show that the fat and cholesterol levels in mammals lead to obesity, hepatic lipids sis and a host of other health issues.
I tried, and came up empty. "Other primarily Squamate feeding snakes" doesn't prove anything. If you won't provide data that proves captive Kingsnakes require other snakes in their diet, I'll remain a skeptic. In the meantime, I'll assume your diet consists primarily of lightbulbs that fail to illuminate.
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Re: Feeding live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah
Well that just shows you're lack of experience and ignorance when it comes to live feeding :gj:
Funny how people feeding live (and I mean experienced in doing so not just one live prey a month) are a lot more open minded when it come to f/t and wouldn't use words such as never or lower themselves to....
As for the OP if you do feed live make sure you are prepared to do so for a while if your snake does not switch back.
Agreed. I said this before, I'll say it again.
You buy a snake that eats rodents
You buy rodents
You gas chamber the rodents to death
You freeze the rodent
Only to later spend hours thawing rodents
Only to feed to snake that eats live rodents naturally
If that isn't morbid, but feeding live is? I will happily not enter the Twilight Zone. The only argument for f/t I believe in is risk of harming my snakes. I had one get bit by an Asf and I nearly switched to f/t.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 200xth
You can think whatever you want, there is nothing unreasonable or lacking sense in live feeding.
No one cares that you feed frozen, but quit trying to act like you're some sort of morally superior person because of it. Not a single thing you feed your snake was not alive at one point, yet you act like you're somehow so much better than anyone else.
Fast Shadow
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Okay, I've tried to stay out of this, but Jesus do you like banging that morality drum, Zinc. Here's the thing though: I don't think there is more than even a handful of people on this forum, if any, that are making the claim the live feeding is somehow superior or preferable to f/t whenever possible. Most of the posts I've seen you chime in on on tutting at people about live feeding have gone like this:
Person: my snake isn't eating, I wish for my snake to eat and be healthy.
Other people with experience in getting a fussy snake to eat: try offering live if it won't take f/t just to make sure it's eating. Once it's feeding regularly, start the switch to f/t.
You: Live feeding is BARBARIC and you should all feel BAD about it!
This might not be how you intend to come off as, but it sure rubs people the wrong way when you jump down their throats for not conforming to your personal standard for morality, especially when the issue at hand is not which is better, but how do I make sure my snake doesn't starve itself. Switching fussy snakes to f/t can be especially difficult for newbie ball python keepers, which this forum sees a LOT of. You are looking down your nose at people for making choices with the well being of their pet in mind. If it's a choice between feeding live and not feeding at all, you bet your buns most people here are going to put the snake first, not your emotional consideration. Most of the people you've been "debating" with (read: shaking your finger and acting like a snob at, then being surprised why no one likes it) actually do feed f/t, and recommend others do so because it is generally cheaper, easier, and safer when done correctly. However, live feeding is also safe WHEN DONE CORRECTLY, and everyone here has different circumstances under which they must operate, from first time owners of single snakes, to breeders with decades of experience who handle large collections on a daily basis. You should really stop demanding the world march in lockstep with your views and learn to respect the differences. Things will go much smoother for you.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigga
This train needs to come off the tracks.
Cruelty to feeders is not acceptable, and improper euthanasia is definitely cruel. A proper live feeding results in a quick and easy death with little or no danger to a snake; a stunned feeder is both wildly inhumane and an unnecessary risk to the snake (those feeders come out of a stun scared and in defend mode, the danger is real). I'll advocate feeding live, f/t, f/k, but never stunned.
They die instantly. I'd rather die from faceplanting off of a 2 story building then have my neck snapped or get strangled by Andre the Giant.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah
Funny are barbaric F/T and F/K feeding can really be too but I guess our friend will dismiss that.
As for you obviously have no business feeding P/K.
If you can't respect the feeders and treat them humanely whether you feed live or P/K you have no business owning a snake and should stick to a pet rock.
Well i guess thats your opinion, baby doll.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by 200xth
Why?
These snakes are the product of 70 to 90 million years of evolution with two goals. The first is to breed. The second is to kill small animals and eat them so it can live long enough and get big enough to breed.
It's very good at both of them, and it doesn't really need help with either of them. In my 2 cent opinion, people do far too much trying to help these animals when they don't need it, from smashing their rodents against walls to feeding on paper plates to picking crap out of their teeth.
When it comes to feeding live, just let your snake do what he is incredibly well designed to do. Put a properly sized rodent in the enclosure and let your snake do the rest.
I think getting strangled must suck. Thats why lol.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl
WoW................
Wrong in so many ways. Have you seen a scared rat that comes around after being stunned?
If you have issued then man up and do a cervical dislocate, no need to be cruel about it.
I make sure they're dead. My bp just graduated to hoppers so it's relatively easy. Physically that is. Emotionally ehhh.... hahaha ;)
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by the I-Many
I make sure they're dead. My bp just graduated to hoppers so it's relatively easy. Physically that is. Emotionally ehhh.... hahaha ;)
You are GROSSLY mis-informed about how to prekill a live feeder. Cervical dislocation is not strangling nor is co2 gas. With the first, the rat dies as near instantly as you can get from having its spine severed at the brain stem. The second, the rats get sleepy and drift off slowly. Both of these are the most humane option for prekilling prey items. They are handled gently and respectfully leading up to the event and experience little to no pain or fear at all. Bashing the rat into the wall is NOT humane. You can not guarantee that your prey item will be killed the on first smack 100% of the time this way, even if you are big and strong, and the rat is tiny and fragile. That means a great deal of pain and fear for that prey. additionally, a rat knocked unconcious or sufficiently stunned can fool you into thinking it's dead when it isn't, and then it will wake up into PAIN/FEAR/DEFEND SELF mode. You'll find the older mice and rats will start to be more resilient, and while hoppers might not do much damage, you do not want to see what happens when a panicked feeder wakes up out of a daze and sees a snake.
For the sake of both the prey and your snake, please research and learn how to prekill correctly, or just switch to either straight up live or f/t.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by the I-Many
I make sure they're dead. My bp just graduated to hoppers so it's relatively easy. Physically that is. Emotionally ehhh.... hahaha ;)
Dead and dead instantly are two different things. SMH
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zincubus
I really don't get this LIVE feeding malarkey . I've kept loads of snakes from Garters to Burms and I've never had to resort to feeding LIVE.
Even the fussiest Royal Python will eat warmed up d/f when they're ready . I currently have a matching , non related pair of Albino Royals who will only eat if it's warmed up and dangled in front of their face .. It sometimes takes three or four attempts but so what - just put the time and effort in and don't take the easy route of feeding LIVE . It's cruel to the rodents and risky for your snakes !!
I read a post the other day where this woman said she hated feeding live due to the harrowing sound of the rat pup crying in pain for 25 minutes whilst it was slowly eaten alive !!!
She said it sounded like a crying baby !!!
That's funny, my female bumblebee WILL NOT under any circumstances eat a f/t or a f/k rat. Live only
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I didn't read this entire thread. There is two reasons people only feed live. Cost and convenience. Case closed
Anybody on a high horse saying it's more natural or whatever is fooling you. Anybody that likes the kill needs to seek help.
It's near impossible to feed frozen to a 140 snake collection and frozen gets expensive real quick.
LOL!!! I just read some of this thread, I can't wait for the threads from some of these people when their snakes eye is hanging out of the socket or half it's face is ripped open.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
IMO people should do what they need to do to get the snake to eat once it's a health hazard. 2 of mine eat f/t and I ONLY do that because in my area it's convenient and cheaper than live. 4 frozen here is $6 but 4 live is $15! That said, I have one snake that barely eats and when he does he takes only live mice even though he needs rats because he was attacked by a rat (he's a rescue ). It's nothing to do with morals and everything to do with preserving my babies. Do I like it? No. But I do what I need to do to keep my kids healthy
1.2 Normal
1.1 Red-tail
0.1 Albino corn
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl
Dead and dead instantly are two different things. SMH
Okay dude I'm still going to do what works for me and my animal companion despite your disapproval. There are worst things in the world.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizardlicks
You are GROSSLY mis-informed about how to prekill a live feeder. Cervical dislocation is not strangling nor is co2 gas. With the first, the rat dies as near instantly as you can get from having its spine severed at the brain stem. The second, the rats get sleepy and drift off slowly. Both of these are the most humane option for prekilling prey items. They are handled gently and respectfully leading up to the event and experience little to no pain or fear at all. Bashing the rat into the wall is NOT humane. You can not guarantee that your prey item will be killed the on first smack 100% of the time this way, even if you are big and strong, and the rat is tiny and fragile. That means a great deal of pain and fear for that prey. additionally, a rat knocked unconcious or sufficiently stunned can fool you into thinking it's dead when it isn't, and then it will wake up into PAIN/FEAR/DEFEND SELF mode. You'll find the older mice and rats will start to be more resilient, and while hoppers might not do much damage, you do not want to see what happens when a panicked feeder wakes up out of a daze and sees a snake.
For the sake of both the prey and your snake, please research and learn how to prekill correctly, or just switch to either straight up live or f/t.
I appreciate your well versed opinion and (supposed) righteous indignation.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by the I-Many
Okay dude I'm still going to do what works for me and my animal companion despite your disapproval. There are worst things in the world.
Yeah there are, animal cruelty comes to the top of my head. Still SMH
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I-Many,
That is a valid way of killing a rodent yes. There is another less..skull bashing way that works.
Cervical-dislocation my friends.
http://www.utexas.edu/research/rsc/i...uideline04.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?q=mous...2&ved=0CEIQsAQ
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBalls
Thanks I was looking for something like this, I had no idea what cervical dislocation was.
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Definitely watch a few videos on it first.. I had to have my sister in-law show me. She's a lab hand and does it all day long appearantly. I've only done it once or twice that I can recall and that was because I had a batch of crazy mice.
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In Sweden it's forbidden to feed live animals to other animals(bugs are seemingly not included in the rules). I have no statistics of how many people own snakes, and it could be that people simply shut up about it, but it seems like most snake owners who talk about feeding online only talk about f/t feeding. It's a big nono to feed live without trying f/t, only out of desperation. It's forbidden to sell rodents knowing they will be given live to animals, but frozen, or for breeding feeding animals that will be humanely killed before given is ok to sell. I think you can get a permission from the government, but I would guess most people skip getting that.
So, it seems relatively easy to get snakes to eat pre-killed, at least that's the joint voice from breeders and the small snake community. But that doesn't apply to all snakes, people admit that.
People who have rodents as pets get pretty vocal when someone promotes feeding live.
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So we all know feed lots are terrible and that we really shouldn't cram livestock stomachs with corn...
We milk cows to the point that their utters (that’s breast, so the moms know how a baby can feel, imagine what a machine pumping away for hours feels like) bleed and puss and consumers end up drinking a lot of this.
We mass produce turkeys and slaughter them for thanksgiving. We mass produce chickens and slaughter them year-round. Both these fouls live in cramped, disease/bacteria ridden 'barns'.
Koreans eat dogs, cramming them into tiny cages, while they're dragged to slaughter.
But we're the villains feeding precious rodent to vile snakes.
Next time you're eating that burger, steak, holiday dinner, please remind yourself how cruel you are for supporting these practices.
Not for the kiddos :)
https://www.google.com/search?q=slau...ell=1&imgdii=_
https://www.google.com/search?q=kore...q=chicken+farm
https://www.google.com/search?q=kore...=1849&bih=1019
NONE of my feedings ever result in any of what happens to YOUR (human) FOOD. Please tell me again how cruel it is to feed my pampered mouse colony off to my snake. Yes they even have a wheel!
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Who came up with F/T anyway? Live is the way nature made it.......seems like F/ T came about to be more convenient. I'm sure a freezer full of rats is a lot easier to care for than my colony of rats are. I could care less how other people feed, I perfer live. I'm certainly not going to judge people for the way they feed....
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by the I-Many
Well i guess thats your opinion, baby doll.
Wow. You talked to a mod like this and called her baby doll, talk about disrespect. This entire thread has just become ridiculous. I do feed exclusively feed f/t but there are times when my snakes don't want f/t so I can and WILL feed live. There are people on here who have been raising snakes for a very long time and they feed live because it just works for them and some people don't have the time to thaw out feeders.
You are being very cruel and sadistic when you kill a feeder rat by whacking it against an object and Deborah is correct, you really have no business owning snakes. Heaven forbid you should have to take care of one of your snakes that has suddenly fallen ill, there is no telling how you would remedy such an issue. Would you whack that poor snake too instead of getting it the necessary treatment?!!
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zincubus
I really don't get this LIVE feeding malarkey . I've kept loads of snakes from Garters to Burms and I've never had to resort to feeding LIVE.
Even the fussiest Royal Python will eat warmed up d/f when they're ready . I currently have a matching , non related pair of Albino Royals who will only eat if it's warmed up and dangled in front of their face .. It sometimes takes three or four attempts but so what - just put the time and effort in and don't take the easy route of feeding LIVE . It's cruel to the rodents and risky for your snakes !!
I read a post the other day where this woman said she hated feeding live due to the harrowing sound of the rat pup crying in pain for 25 minutes whilst it was slowly eaten alive !!!
She said it sounded like a crying baby !!!
I haven't read most of this thread, but just wanted to drag it back on topic. If this is your attitude you probably have not BRED any snakes. Snakes that you BOUGHT from other breeders were probably already feeding regularily. Once a snake is feeding REGULARILY it's often (not always) possible to switch them to frozen thawed. However getting hatchlings to eat the first time can be very tricky. And YES, in the 20 years that I've been breeding snakes I've had many hatchlings that would rather starve themselves to death than eat. Any breeder who tells you they've never had a hatchling starve itself to death has probably not been breeding very long. The ONLY way to get a lot of reluctant hatchlings to feed is to feed them live. Once they are feeding REGULARILY it's possible to trick them into taking frozen thawed.
I myself am currently feeding frozen thawed. All of my adults eat frozen thawed. I used to feed live or fresh killed for many years but I found that I was spending more time with the rodents than I was with my snakes and as time got more pinched something had to go so I got rid of the rodent colonies. It's nice having the extra time to spend with my snakes. My CHOICE to feed frozen thawed has NOTHING to do with whether or not it's cruel to feed live, because it's NOT. The snakes can kill their prey much more quickly and efficently than I can.
Realistically I'm probably going to have to go back to breeding mice at least. It's pretty expensive to buy a load of live hopper mice every week for the hatchlings that I haven't been able to switch yet.
As far as killing rodents, this is my prefered method. Got to a welding supply store and buy a canister of CO2, a regulator (get a cheap one designed for beer kegs) and the shortest hose you can find (this unfortunatly will be about 25 feet) The canister of CO2 will be expensive, but then when it's empty you can exchange it for a full one for a LOT cheaper and a canister will last a long time anyway. The initial outlay of money will be expensive (should be less than 100 bucks though) but will last forever. Attach the regulator and the hose to the canister. Take your live rodents and put them in a large heavy duty plastic garbage bag (construction bags work the best) stick the end of the hose in the bag and clamp it shut with your hand. VERY SLOWLY, crack the valve on the CO2 canister, the bag should fill up very slowly so as not to panic the rodents. Once you hear them stop scurrying around, fill the bag the rest of the way and give it a few twists to hold the CO2 in and loosely tie it off and let it sit there for a few minutes (I usually let it sit for about 10 minutes). After letting it sit for a time, open it up and dump out your dead rodents and feed them to your snakes or freeze them for later.
Oh and your story about the woman feeding a rat pup is a load of anthropomorphic baloney. First off. Rat pups sqeek when they're away from their mothers, that sound that they make is them calling for mom and yes, they can get quite loud and insistant even when they're NOT being swallowed by snakes. To say that they sound like a baby is laughable, they sound NOTHING like a human infant (as I said earlier, anthropomorphic baloney). And 25 minutes? obviously the meal was way too big.
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14 pages! Come on guys, this isn't really a debate. Live can be fed safely and F/T is not 100% foolproof either. If the rodent is still frozen or had thawed for too long or partially thawed and gone bad you can have safety issues just the same.
In terms of ethics, constrictors have evolved for millions of years to be efficient at killing fast and effectively. As noted, human food supply is not all sunshine and rainbows. The meat industry is one of the most nightmarish dirty secrets out there. Even if you're a vegetarian, nasty environmental damage is done through most of our farming techniques.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
All I've ever done is feed Demi, my Ball Python, live mice. I think its cruel that people would heat up dead mice! She has never skipped a meal. She eats every Monday. Right on time.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Originally Posted by MS2
Who came up with F/T anyway? Live is the way nature made it.......seems like F/ T came about to be more convenient. I'm sure a freezer full of rats is a lot easier to care for than my colony of rats are. I could care less how other people feed, I perfer live. I'm certainly not going to judge people for the way they feed....
In nature snakes are ALSO predated, being eaten by birds, large mammals, and even other snakes. I don't see you keeping a hyena around the house to make it more "natural" though. That's the whole point of keeping pets; we are removing them from nature, and fitting them into our domestic lives for our pleasure. This brings some benefit for the animals such as protection from diseases (and treatment if they do catch one), protection from being eaten, or injured, and provided food on a regular basis so they don't starve. There are many valid reasons to feed live, anything from cost to making sure fussy feeders keep eating. Feeding live because it's "more natural" though? Kind of a pretty dumb one that isn't very fully thought out.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Originally Posted by SnakeBalls
So we all know feed lots are terrible and that we really shouldn't cram livestock stomachs with corn...
We milk cows to the point that their utters (that’s breast, so the moms know how a baby can feel, imagine what a machine pumping away for hours feels like) bleed and puss and consumers end up drinking a lot of this.
We mass produce turkeys and slaughter them for thanksgiving. We mass produce chickens and slaughter them year-round. Both these fouls live in cramped, disease/bacteria ridden 'barns'.
Koreans eat dogs, cramming them into tiny cages, while they're dragged to slaughter.
But we're the villains feeding precious rodent to vile snakes.
Next time you're eating that burger, steak, holiday dinner, please remind yourself how cruel you are for supporting these practices.
Not for the kiddos :)
https://www.google.com/search?q=slau...ell=1&imgdii=_
https://www.google.com/search?q=kore...q=chicken+farm
https://www.google.com/search?q=kore...=1849&bih=1019
NONE of my feedings ever result in any of what happens to YOUR (human) FOOD. Please tell me again how cruel it is to feed my pampered mouse colony off to my snake. Yes they even have a wheel!
I feel like the people with the strongest stance against feeding live are probably also either vegetarian, or at least concerned with the welfare of the animals they eat and search out more ethical sources. Or I'd hope so at least. So your point of "you think this is bad? well here are some other things that are bad!" is not a very effective one.
It does, however, highlight the point I brought up earlier, which is that the way the animals are kept and treated while they are alive is a thousand times more relevant than how they are dispatched, since that part is very quick either way. I have seen some rodent breeding operations where half a dozen or more adult rats are kept together in a poorly ventilated ten gallon tank or tub and fed nothing but those corn by-product "rat pellets." That should be far more concerning than people feeding live. From browsing that area of the forum, I get the impression that most rodent breeders on here have more ethical set-ups, but I have to wonder if that's the majority.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Originally Posted by PrestonC
All I've ever done is feed Demi, my Ball Python, live mice. I think its cruel that people would heat up dead mice! She has never skipped a meal. She eats every Monday. Right on time.
Lol I never thought either way was cruel because I was taught to respect life in all it's forms. Not saying it's definitely not weird and sometimes it still throws me off a bit but I just find it easier than live partly because if they don't eat it, there's a 50/50 chance someone else will or it can be refrozen! I am always grateful for what I have for myself and my babies, so if I take on live mice for feeding, I talk to them the whole ride home and give them tidbits of crackers or carrots and then I make sure they go quickly...meaning if my snake wants to play games and just scare them, I remove them quickly. It sounds odd and seems morbid, but I feel like all walks of life need to be treated humanely but also I understand the circle of life and what I need to do to keep it going.
1.2 Normal
1.1 Red-tail
0.1 Albino corn
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As long as the snake is under supervision, I don't see the problem feeding a snake a live mouse. Either way, the mouse is always going to end up being eaten.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Originally Posted by SCWood
Lol I never thought either way was cruel because I was taught to respect life in all it's forms. Not saying it's definitely not weird and sometimes it still throws me off a bit but I just find it easier than live partly because if they don't eat it, there's a 50/50 chance someone else will or it can be refrozen! I am always grateful for what I have for myself and my babies, so if I take on live mice for feeding, I talk to them the whole ride home and give them tidbits of crackers or carrots and then I make sure they go quickly...meaning if my snake wants to play games and just scare them, I remove them quickly. It sounds odd and seems morbid, but I feel like all walks of life need to be treated humanely but also I understand the circle of life and what I need to do to keep it going.
1.2 Normal
1.1 Red-tail
0.1 Albino corn
Nope, that's a perfectly good way to look at it. Feeders are still living creatures that can experience fear and pain. Just because it's going to be fed off, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be treated with kindness and respect up to the moment of death.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Originally Posted by Snake Judy
I feel like the people with the strongest stance against feeding live are probably also either vegetarian, or at least concerned with the welfare of the animals they eat and search out more ethical sources. Or I'd hope so at least. So your point of "you think this is bad? well here are some other things that are bad!" is not a very effective one.
It does, however, highlight the point I brought up earlier, which is that the way the animals are kept and treated while they are alive is a thousand times more relevant than how they are dispatched, since that part is very quick either way. I have seen some rodent breeding operations where half a dozen or more adult rats are kept together in a poorly ventilated ten gallon tank or tub and fed nothing but those corn by-product "rat pellets." That should be far more concerning than people feeding live. From browsing that area of the forum, I get the impression that most rodent breeders on here have more ethical set-ups, but I have to wonder if that's the majority.
The good news is setups like what you described don't last long at all. One of the first things you are warned about housing multiple rats together is that if adequate space and food are not provided, they are not above eating their cage mates. Rodent breeding can be tricky if for no other reason than any issue at all will result in cannibalization in a heart beat. I once lost an entire litter of pups because I didn't realize a water nipple had failed, and that was only for a few days. Lesson learned and I check all my plumbing daily now, but it goes to show you that the minimums absolutely have to be met for any measure of success to be achieved. Throwing half a dozen or more fully grown rats in a 10 gallon tank with less than ideal food is a quick way to end up with 2 or 3 very questionably fed rats.
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks
In nature snakes are ALSO predated, being eaten by birds, large mammals, and even other snakes. I don't see you keeping a hyena around the house to make it more "natural" though. That's the whole point of keeping pets; we are removing them from nature, and fitting them into our domestic lives for our pleasure. This brings some benefit for the animals such as protection from diseases (and treatment if they do catch one), protection from being eaten, or injured, and provided food on a regular basis so they don't starve. There are many valid reasons to feed live, anything from cost to making sure fussy feeders keep eating. Feeding live because it's "more natural" though? Kind of a pretty dumb one that isn't very fully thought out.
You don't know my life.
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I know that wolves hunt and eat deer so I thought I'd feed a live deer to my dog because I figured it would be more 'natural'. My chihuahua just hid underneath the car while the deer made a mess of my garage. It turned out to be a bad idea all around... :D
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Originally Posted by ballpythonluvr
Wow. You talked to a mod like this and called her baby doll, talk about disrespect. This entire thread has just become ridiculous. I do feed exclusively feed f/t but there are times when my snakes don't want f/t so I can and WILL feed live. There are people on here who have been raising snakes for a very long time and they feed live because it just works for them and some people don't have the time to thaw out feeders.
You are being very cruel and sadistic when you kill a feeder rat by whacking it against an object and Deborah is correct, you really have no business owning snakes. Heaven forbid you should have to take care of one of your snakes that has suddenly fallen ill, there is no telling how you would remedy such an issue. Would you whack that poor snake too instead of getting it the necessary treatment?!!
Sorry baby cakes. love and kisses
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Re: The Live vs F/T debate
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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks
In nature snakes are ALSO predated, being eaten by birds, large mammals, and even other snakes. I don't see you keeping a hyena around the house to make it more "natural" though. That's the whole point of keeping pets; we are removing them from nature, and fitting them into our domestic lives for our pleasure. This brings some benefit for the animals such as protection from diseases (and treatment if they do catch one), protection from being eaten, or injured, and provided food on a regular basis so they don't starve. There are many valid reasons to feed live, anything from cost to making sure fussy feeders keep eating. Feeding live because it's "more natural" though? Kind of a pretty dumb one that isn't very fully thought out.
I did not say it was a "more natural" way, I said that is the way NATURE made it. Read a little further next time.....and I don't know if hyenas are in the same part of Africa, but I am pretty dumb and don't fully think things out.
And how do you know what animals I keep? I could have a lion or two:colbert:
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