Proof on the Spider gene. OWAL take a look

after reading the first few pages and the last few pages, my opinion about the spider gene doesnt change at all.


the mechanism is simple: heterozygous spiders are fine, and homozygous spiders dont exist because the homozygous spider is lethal.

since the original poster didnt mention the amount of slugs, i still see two options:

1.) Homozygous spider is very deadly, so that the embryo dies so fast that the mother snake produces a slug instead of a full-sized egg.

2.) Homozygous spider is even more deadly, so that the fertilized zygote cannot even split once, or something prevents the egg from forming, and the mother snake doesnt even produce a slug. I consider it remotely possible that the female simply responds by producing another egg, that females just fill their bellies with eggs and stop when they have as many eggs growing as they can handle. But i think a 25% drop in fertility is more likely.


and the consequences for breeding? i dont know, im not a catholic, it doesnt bother me when embryos or zygotes that are less sentient than a tomato die. So the only reason to avoid breeding spider to spider would be that possible (not proven out) 25% drop in fertility.

in my opinion the wobble is the bigger issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sho220

Not sure if it's the same tattlife2001... http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/jus...re-theifs.html

---

I can't imagine that it is anyone different. Good detective work!

Why would someone go on a bunch of different forums and pretend to have a warehouse of snakes?
If its a troll it's a pretty lame one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

wow I didn't know your numbers were so extensive, so if im reading it correctly, every single one of the 153 spider offspring from the spider x spider pairing was bred to see if they were homozygous? Also I saw a thread that claimed to produce an all white snake that died after hatching from a spider x spider pairing, you never saw anything like this?

the "normal" making spiders is quite interesting also, few explanations that come to mind right away. (can we get a picture of her for the heck of it?)
simple one would be she is a spider that pattern resembles normalish quailties (im sure you thought of it already),
she could be a paradox, having spider reproductive organs,
she is a spider, but also has a recessive trait that dominants over it, making her look normal
epigenetics is at play and the expression on the spider gene is turned down, or even off.

---

Sounds like he has a Chimera.... Scenario, 2 embryo in an egg developing into one.... 1 normal / 1 Spider dna merging to produce a normal looking snake which will produce spider offspring...

I would like to start this out by saying that I will not be going in any order and most of this will not be easy to follow. I am sorry to everyone here for this thread. I can not and will not make excuses for anything that I did. I will give a back story as to myself at the time of this thread starting and leading up to it as well as a few other things. I had started the breedings for the spider gene. It was a group of 2.5 spiders. I wanted to know exactly what was going on. They were purchased back in early 2011 and were bred in 2012. That is as far as it ever got. I do not remember what was produced from the breedings to be honest. Shortly after those eggs hatched I made this thread. The numbers I posted were in a way real numbers, they were compiled from multiple people who had done spider x spider breedings but they were not my results. Shortly after I made the post my life took a major twist and it resulted in me having a nervous breakdown. I was also suffering from drug abuse. I checked myself in to a hospital and stayed for 90 days. After I was released I continued counseling and am still doing so today. Right now I do not have any snakes due to a recent move cross country. The second person that posted on this thread speaking for me stating that I had died was my brother whom I am currently staying with, I do not know why he posted or what his intentions were in posting and I apologize for that as well. The link that is provided in this thread is not from me so please do not group me with that person. As of today I am mentally stable and drug free. I do plan on getting in to snakes again and I hope to one day prove what is going on with the spider gene as well as the pinstripe and woma, not to be confused with hg woma. If I am able to do any of those then I will make a thread here and post pictures all along the way so there are no doubts at all as to what exactly happens with them. Again I am sorry for everything and for dragging this out. I know I will not be welconed back with open arms and pretty much everyone will question pretty much anything that I happen to post here. I hope that over time I will be able to regain trust and be a part of this wonderful community that is actually helping instead of hindering. Thank you for your time in reading this last post. If I am not welcome here any Admin can feel free to let me know and I will delete my account and will not return but I hope it does not come to that.

Well I think at this point, the only thing to say is apology accepted and I think I can speak for many of us here and say, great job for turning your life around! I know there are a few people here who use ball pythons as sort of a stress reliever of sorts. Stay on the path it sounds like your on and you will be just fine.

Also cool idea on trying to prove what's up with those genes. Not many people would take on that responsibility. Good luck with future endeavours and welcome back.

Thank you. I figure since I made this whole mess I should at least do it and follow through and see what happens.

Back from the dead I see. Just kidding.... I'm kidding that wasn't funny but I had to. I'm sure that it took a lot for you to come and admit that you had lied, especially after you were in it so deep. If you do manage to earn some trust back, I hope you learned your lesson and don't throw it away so easily over something so silly. Your reputation is everything in a community like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tattlife2001

If I am not welcome here any Admin can feel free to let me know and I will delete my account and will not return but I hope it does not come to that.

---

Of course you're still welcomed here. You're making a conscious, hard-working, determined effort to change what you know has been wrong in your life. That is to be admired and appreciated. Trust and reputation take time to rebuild, but so long as you continue on this path, there's absolutely no reason why it can't be done, and often times even stronger than before.

I wish you all the best in your journey and hope that someday we can follow a serious study of the spider gene with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

after reading the first few pages and the last few pages, my opinion about the spider gene doesn't change at all.


the mechanism is simple: heterozygous spiders are fine, and homozygous spiders don't exist because the homozygous spider is lethal.

since the original poster didn't mention the amount of slugs, i still see two options:

1.) Homozygous spider is very deadly, so that the embryo dies so fast that the mother snake produces a slug instead of a full-sized egg.

2.) Homozygous spider is even more deadly, so that the fertilized zygote cannot even split once, or something prevents the egg from forming, and the mother snake doesn't even produce a slug. I consider it remotely possible that the female simply responds by producing another egg, that females just fill their bellies with eggs and stop when they have as many eggs growing as they can handle. But i think a 25% drop in fertility is more likely.

---

Let me just throw this out there. slugs were never at any point fertile. Fertilization happens when the snake ovulates or shortly after. So slug never saw genetic material from either parent. The more likely idea is that infertile eggs were "Super spiders" didn't make it past the first cellular division. However because we don't truly understand reptile DNA and the associated mutations of it we wont be able to say for sure that the morphs are determined at the time of the first division or even later on. it's more likely that the mutation kicks in later in the embryo's development since its things like pigment and what not that are effected. With all of that said I've long said that it's naive to think that the only thing these mutations effect physiologically is skin pigment, We see kinking, cleft jaws, small eye's wobble's, duck bills ect ect. All of those this are changes to the anatomy of the animal.

Still so much to learn and discover

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Let me just throw this out there. slugs were never at any point fertile. Fertilization happens when the snake ovulates or shortly after. So slug never saw genetic material from either parent. The more likely idea is that infertile eggs were "Super spiders" didn't make it past the first cellular division. However because we don't truly understand reptile DNA and the associated mutations of it we wont be able to say for sure that the morphs are determined at the time of the first division or even later on. it's more likely that the mutation kicks in later in the embryo's development since its things like pigment and what not that are effected. With all of that said I've long said that it's naive to think that the only thing these mutations effect physiologically is skin pigment, We see kinking, cleft jaws, small eye's wobble's, duck bills ect ect. All of those this are changes to the anatomy of the animal.

Still so much to learn and discover

---

I'm going to try to phrase my response carefully, because I don't want to come across as combative when I really just want to understand what you're saying. I'm sure a lot has changed since my last genetics course, and a lot of what I learned is probably outdated, but I'd appreciate some clarification on some of your points.

Where does your info for slugs having never been fertile come from?

Surely if they are in fact "super spiders" that didn't make it past cellular division (or possibly not very far into it), they have received genetic material from both parents?

Although things like skin pigment are not visible in the early stages of development, the genes for it are there. The genetic material that determines the morph is there from the point of meiosis. However I believe you are correct in stating that the mutation (assuming that in your statement mutation is synonymous with morph and any associated defects) can cause problems later in development as those genes are activated during the embryos development.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tattlife2001

Thank you. I figure since I made this whole mess I should at least do it and follow through and see what happens.

---

It takes courage to stand up and take responsibility for our actions sometimes. I wish you all the best in your continued recovery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Badgemash

I'm going to try to phrase my response carefully, because I don't want to come across as combative when I really just want to understand what you're saying. I'm sure a lot has changed since my last genetics course, and a lot of what I learned is probably outdated, but I'd appreciate some clarification on some of your points.

Where does your info for slugs having never been fertile come from?

Surely if they are in fact "super spiders" that didn't make it past cellular division (or possibly not very far into it), they have received genetic material from both parents?

Although things like skin pigment are not visible in the early stages of development, the genes for it are there. The genetic material that determines the morph is there from the point of meiosis. However I believe you are correct in stating that the mutation (assuming that in your statement mutation is synonymous with morph and any associated defects) can cause problems later in development as those genes are activated during the embryos development.

---

Slugs are slugs way before a female Ovys. The male or his sperm have nothing to do with slugs. There are numerous people(Jerry aka SnakesRKewl being the one I remember off the top of my head) that have stated they can actually palpate slugs along with viable follicles and there is a clear difference in how they feel.

As for what is really going on we don't have a clue. We are playing with the Phenotypes of these animals and have very little understand what is going on with the rest of the Genotype.


To the OP-
I commend you on getting your life together and making the changes that you want to make to improve it.
Also for coming on here and laying it all out there and apologizing.
Good luck in your journey and we look forward to seeing what comes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

Slugs are slugs way before a female Ovys. The male or his sperm have nothing to do with slugs. There are numerous people(Jerry aka SnakesRKewl being the one I remember off the top of my head) that have stated they can actually palpate slugs along with viable follicles and there is a clear difference in how they feel.

---

That is both really cool, and good to know, thank you.

Thank you all for the kind words. That honestly means a lot to me.

As to the gene questions. I do have a theory... First keep in mind that I will not be using any technical terms at all because I do not know them.

So what I think is going on. I do not think that there is a super spider at all and I also do not think it is lethal or anything like that. When the egg and sperm come together that is what makes the baby right? What I think happens here is one of 2 things. 1 being that an egg and sperm both carrying the spider gene are not "attracted" to each other, meaning the sperm will just pass that egg up and fertilize one that is normal. Or the second option I feel is possible is that if the egg and sperm both carry the spider gene then only one of them will be displayed genetically, essentially if both mom and pop pass along the same gene to one baby that would normally result in a super we get a spider that is just a normal spider... Hard to explain my thinking on the second one I guess you could say that one spider gene can only be present at one time and if 2 come into contact with eachother one wipes the other out leaving only 1 spider gene in the dna and a blank spot, the blank spot could then be "filled" or replaced with a normal gene.

I said both of these because honestly we do not know what the dna of a snake is able to do. It could heal its self in a way. I also think that the worst wobbles that we see in the spiders could possibly come from a line that was derived from spider x spider breedings... Possible I think so.

Welcome back, stay clean!

I don't think either of those theories are plausible. First, sperm just aren't that 'smart', and the ovum is encapsulated with none of the DNA available for the sperm to peruse. Second, one gene will not entirely delete a gene from the other chromosome.

From what I've seen, most of you introduce the male to the female well before she ovulates which means she is storing sperm. This can act to partially negate the idea that slugs are follicles that are bad from the go. Or if not a cause of the slugs, what might be happening is that the spider-spider combo is simply so lethal that the female resorbs it entirely due to failure to develop at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

I don't think either of those theories are plausible. First, sperm just aren't that 'smart', and the ovum is encapsulated with none of the DNA available for the sperm to peruse. Second, one gene will not entirely delete a gene from the other chromosome.

From what I've seen, most of you introduce the male to the female well before she ovulates which means she is storing sperm. This can act to partially negate the idea that slugs are follicles that are bad from the go. Or if not a cause of the slugs, what might be happening is that the spider-spider combo is simply so lethal that the female resorbs it entirely due to failure to develop at all.

---

Yes the female does store the sperm. But, it doesn't meet the follicle until the female Ovys and slugs are slugs well before Ovy. Second a female can't reabsorb an egg or slug after she has Ovulated.

Ok what I meant by the egg and sperm that both carry the spider gene not being attracted to each other was that maybe there is something in the protein of one or the other that does not allow the sperm to fertilize the egg. Could be a weaker sperm cell or a thicker egg membrane something such as that. I know it is grabbing at straws but it is imo something is at least possible.

Just grabbing at straws here but do any of the normal offspring from spider x spider carry the head wobble ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vankmen.

Just grabbing at straws here but do any of the normal offspring from spider x spider carry the head wobble ?

---

Never. Spider x spider pairings have been done often and for a long time, and the 33% normals (note that i didnt say 25%) you get from a spider x spider pairing do not show any issues. If you see from looking at the hatchling that it has no spider gene, thats it, it doesnt have the gene so it wont wobble. (unless it has another wobbly gene in it).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

Second a female can't reabsorb an egg or slug after she has Ovulated.

---

You are sure about that? I know that corns can, because I've had females do that. And cats and dogs will resorb fetuses as well in the first trimester.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

You are sure about that? I know that corns can, because I've had females do that. And cats and dogs will resorb fetuses as well in the first trimester.

---

There are no mechanisms within the oviduct to allow them to be reabsorbed after ovulation.
Are you sure you aren't mistaking building/swelling for the actual ovulation?

With mammals it's a whole different situation. The embryo/fetus is attached to the uterus.

I have been reading on this site for almost a year now and have learned ALOT. So I think im ready to start putting my 2 cents in :D so here it is.

1st - Could the norm female just have been a really bad looking spider kinda like a really ugly person ?
2 - Is it possible that the spider gene from the wild carried all these bad traits like the head wobble and over time from captive breeding it has just been bred out? A small step of evolution from the spiders?

That is true, a recessive gene cannot dominate a dominant gene, but a co-dominant gene can mask or alter another co-dominant gene. Like with flowers when you breed red roses with white roses and get pink roses.

i think this whole thread is based on: FAKE. i do not believe the pairings this thread is based on ever occured.

so i think this whole thread is garbage, and based on false information.

EDIT: also its a revived zombie thread