Are we feeding too much?

I agree with most of you that this is a very interesting topic, and also one which lacks research and data.

Where did the "rule of thumb" of 10-15% of body weight come from? I have heard this mentioned countless times, but i haven't found the source or the research on which it is based.
What exactly does "appropriately sized" mean. Is it anything smaller than its' girth or similar in size to its girth? Almost all breeder websites mention "feeding on appropriately sized prey". I don't know what this means, but it sounds horrendously ambiguous to my ears. Could anyone clarify what this parameter is? (There are some rats that are slim, and quite long. How do these equate? I understand that there is a small chance of axfixia if the prey item is too large and the snake can't regurgitate it, but it seems that the mass of the prey item would also be an important parameter, not just the girth.)

Unfortunately there is not much data on how BP live-eat in the wild. Never forgetting that Reptiles are NOT Mammals, and both have survived millions of years due to differing evolution, it is interesting that humans have evolved to quicken their metabolism when there is a high availability of food an reduce it to conserve fat when there is not. It seems snakes in the wild, and reptiles in general prefer large meals at large intervals (energy spent/reward?). I read in a science publication that aprox. 30% of produced energy from a snakes meal is used to process it. It would be interesting to see some data on this... ex (just blabbing values).
Constricting costs aprox 10kj +1kj for each additional 20gr.
Swallowing costs 20kj.
Stomach processing costs 40kj +10kj for each 20gr.

That could probably give us more information about if smaller more often is better than larger less frequent, or routine vs "whenever i remember". (All within reasonable limits).

I met a grown male bp 1.5 mts ~1200gr, that got 2 mice a month, and seemed to be content, he wasn't plump, but he didn't seem famine struck, and didn't seem lethargic. I gave the owner my .02 that she should be feeding more, but then again, perhaps she had it right all along, and we are the ones that are over feeding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Angelique

I agree with most of you that this is a very interesting topic, and also one which lacks research and data.

Where did the "rule of thumb" of 10-15% of body weight come from? I have heard this mentioned countless times, but i haven't found the source or the research on which it is based.
What exactly does "appropriately sized" mean. Is it anything smaller than its' girth or similar in size to its girth? Almost all breeder websites mention "feeding on appropriately sized prey". I don't know what this means, but it sounds horrendously ambiguous to my ears. Could anyone clarify what this parameter is? (There are some rats that are slim, and quite long. How do these equate? I understand that there is a small chance of axfixia if the prey item is too large and the snake can't regurgitate it, but it seems that the mass of the prey item would also be an important parameter, not just the girth.)

Unfortunately there is not much data on how BP live-eat in the wild. Never forgetting that Reptiles are NOT Mammals, and both have survived millions of years due to differing evolution, it is interesting that humans have evolved to quicken their metabolism when there is a high availability of food an reduce it to conserve fat when there is not. It seems snakes in the wild, and reptiles in general prefer large meals at large intervals (energy spent/reward?). I read in a science publication that aprox. 30% of produced energy from a snakes meal is used to process it. It would be interesting to see some data on this... ex (just blabbing values).
Constricting costs aprox 10kj +1kj for each additional 20gr.
Swallowing costs 20kj.
Stomach processing costs 40kj +10kj for each 20gr.

That could probably give us more information about if smaller more often is better than larger less frequent, or routine vs "whenever i remember". (All within reasonable limits).

I met a grown male bp 1.5 mts ~1200gr, that got 2 mice a month, and seemed to be content, he wasn't plump, but he didn't seem famine struck, and didn't seem lethargic. I gave the owner my .02 that she should be feeding more, but then again, perhaps she had it right all along, and we are the ones that are over feeding.

---

Thanks Angelique

You are correct in your statements, how much is too much?

My view is that once a ball reaches adulthood weight gain should be slow and steady. There is very little (if any) research on feeding habits in the wild so the only way that I see is to record and monitor growth.

How much fat reserves are needed for females when producing eggs? We have all heard that overweight females are more prone to producing poor clutches. So is pumping them full of food to get them up to breeding weight a good thing? I'm not sure.

We have also heard that fat males can be lazy breeders, so why pump them full of food?

As i stated before, I believe that feeding pre-adult balls weekly is giving them the nutrition for their rapid growth, but once adulthood is reached their nutritional requirements change, I believe that feeding should be cut back to prevent excess fat build-up, but feeding should be enough to allow the animal to gain some weight.

Personally, I feed up my males because they tend to stop eating for the breeding season, and lose substantial weight as a result. Same with the females--I think they should be slightly above the previous year's weight going into the breeding season. That's why it's so important to keep records.
With the animals that pig out, you have to watch it, and feed them smaller prey so they don't become obese--but a lot of the animals are intermittantly picky, and I just feed them whenever they will eat, because they just don't eat enough to actually get fat.

Ball pythons are individuals--they have a huge range of adult sizes and weights. What's a good normal weight gain for one would be too much for another. My big 3500-4000 gram female can drop 800 grams with one clutch. That's a vast amount of weight. Her mate barely weighed that much. :D

Record keeping is the key to all of this--you have to keep track of how much weight they're gaining, how much they weighed the previous year at the same time, and how much they use when they produce eggs. You keep track of how much the males gain and lose too. It's the best way to ensure that you're actually feeding them properly. You have to keep those records for ALL the animals, if you're going to keep them at the right weights and maximize production and health. It's not enough to just throw a rat into all the bins once a week.

Hey All

Thanks for the great replies.

So I think we all agree that keeping records and acting accordingly is the name of the game here.

But "acting accordingly" is also up for debate......

What are your thoughts on acceptable monthly/annual weight gain?

Some may say that they want their females breeding by their second winter, this may be when the females are 18 months old, to do this weight gain would need to be around 100g per month(if you breed at 1800g). That is quite a lot, too much imo.

Some may want their females breeding by their 3rd winter (30 months), so weight gain to 1800g would be around 60g per month. This I feel is healthier for the animal.

In this situation it looks like we have to work backwards, target age/weight first and then how much weight required to be put on to get there.

So what are you thoughts on 'healthy' monthly weight gain? Again it'd be great to hear from the experienced keepers who have kept balls for a long time, but comments from all keepers would be appreciated....:gj:

Oh, I don't think it really applies to hatchlings--honestly, I see no reason not to feed them as much as they will eat. If you overfeed them, they'll go off feed for a while, then start again. You will learn to cut back the frequency. Some animals are happy to eat as much as they can cram in, and their growth rates are extraordinary--but then, perhaps it is those animals that are destined to be 3000 gram rather than 1500 gram adults.

Too much attention is probably focused on a 'breeding weight' without regard for the age and feeding habits of the animal. An animal that reaches 1500 grams in its first year can lay eggs, but it's probably not a mature adult. Likewise, the animal that barely makes 1500 by age 3 but eats regularly is probably mature. The one that is finicky--perhaps it should wait a bit extra.

The reality is that we don't know for sure, and those records are crucial to our and other peoples' future understanding.
We DO know that some ball pythons never get more than 4 feet, while others get up to 6. What's a healthy weight gain for a 4 footer as opposed to a 6 footer? Obviously not the same!
If you don't know what size your ball python is aiming for, how could you know whether it's gaining too much or too little weight? Remember, ball pythons will grow fastest in their first 3 years.

My tactic is to let the animal decide--and so far, they all SEEM healthy. Until that's proven to be wrong, I'll continue it. Baby ball pythons do not appear to get fat beyond a certain point (power-feeding isn't factored into this--I assume the snakes eat as much as they want to, and no more). Instead, they grow larger overall. Because of this, I'm not sure that growing too quickly is any cause for concern. There's just no evidence to suggest it--speculating that it may be harmful is just as much of a guess as speculating that it's harmless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Oh, I don't think it really applies to hatchlings--honestly, I see no reason not to feed them as much as they will eat. If you overfeed them, they'll go off feed for a while, then start again. You will learn to cut back the frequency. Some animals are happy to eat as much as they can cram in, and their growth rates are extraordinary--but then, perhaps it is those animals that are destined to be 3000 gram rather than 1500 gram adults.

Too much attention is probably focused on a 'breeding weight' without regard for the age and feeding habits of the animal. An animal that reaches 1500 grams in its first year can lay eggs, but it's probably not a mature adult. Likewise, the animal that barely makes 1500 by age 3 but eats regularly is probably mature. The one that is finicky--perhaps it should wait a bit extra.

The reality is that we don't know for sure, and those records are crucial to our and other peoples' future understanding.
We DO know that some ball pythons never get more than 4 feet, while others get up to 6. What's a healthy weight gain for a 4 footer as opposed to a 6 footer? Obviously not the same!
If you don't know what size your ball python is aiming for, how could you know whether it's gaining too much or too little weight? Remember, ball pythons will grow fastest in their first 3 years.

My tactic is to let the animal decide--and so far, they all SEEM healthy. Until that's proven to be wrong, I'll continue it. Baby ball pythons do not appear to get fat beyond a certain point (power-feeding isn't factored into this--I assume the snakes eat as much as they want to, and no more). Instead, they grow larger overall. Because of this, I'm not sure that growing too quickly is any cause for concern. There's just no evidence to suggest it--speculating that it may be harmful is just as much of a guess as speculating that it's harmless.

---

Yep, my thinking generally moves towards age as an appropriate indicator for when to breed. There are some female balls out there that are 5yrs plus but not over 2000g, and they are good breeders. Each snake is different.

We discussed at length that sub-adult balls need the food as they are growing quickly. Once adulthood is reached (IMO +-3 yrs for females and 2 yrs or so for males) is where I feel we need to take more care over feeding schedules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

Hey All
Some may say that they want their females breeding by their second winter, this may be when the females are 18 months old, to do this weight gain would need to be around 100g per month(if you breed at 1800g). That is quite a lot, too much imo.

Some may want their females breeding by their 3rd winter (30 months), so weight gain to 1800g would be around 60g per month. This I feel is healthier for the animal.

---

It has been my experience (if somewhat limited) that each snake grows at it's own pace. And not necesarily (however illogical this sounds) based on how much you feed it. A fellow friend followed the rule of offering untill the BP decided tu ignore the meal placed before him. His bp aprox. doubled his weigh every month for the first 6 months or so, and then it's growth slowed down, to about 30-50 grams a month.

I have to agree with you folks, after growth has slowed (perhaps 18-24months and not 3 years) we need to be more carefull about overfeeding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Angelique

It has been my experience (if somewhat limited) that each snake grows at it's own pace. And not necesarily (however illogical this sounds) based on how much you feed it. A fellow friend followed the rule of offering untill the BP decided tu ignore the meal placed before him. His bp aprox. doubled his weigh every month for the first 6 months or so, and then it's growth slowed down, to about 30-50 grams a month.

I have to agree with you folks, after growth has slowed (perhaps 18-24months and not 3 years) we need to be more carefull about overfeeding.

---

I thought that it was already shown that snakes that are power fed to that extent exhibit a much shorter lifespan though? With that being the case I'd still feel like it could be considered overfeeding since it is having a detrimental effect on the snake even if it doesn't seem to be overweight.
It just seems there are multiple issues when it comes to over feeding, obesity and shorter life spans being the main problems. I just feel like those that feed more than what is usually recommended just because they want to get a snake to breeding size quicker are considering their wants far more than the needs of the snake. Sure it might not be obese but you're in affect taking away many years of it's life.

Again, please remember that POWER FEEDING means tricking the snake into eating more than it WANTS to--for example, introducing a second prey item into the snake's mouth as it is swallowing the first, so that it keeps swallowing. It does NOT refer to simply feeding the snake more often.

Powerfeeding is associated with 'pinhead syndrome' and health problems. Feeding more often hasn't caused these, to the best of my knowledge.

I guess I used the incorrect term in response to her particular post. But in quoting her post I was referring to the statement that more food items were offered until the snake finally refused to take any more. So it wasn't about feeding it more often, but her statement that it was being given extra food each sitting which resulted in the doubling of it's weight each month.
I would think this would be considered to have similar results to power feeding due to the rapid weight gain and growth rate.

Well, if pinheading occurs, then I would agree--but if no signs of abnormal growth occur (beyond overall speed), I don't think it constitutes powerfeeding.

Measuring "shorter" lifespans seems hard to quantify. Perhaps the average is 20-30 years. So if a power-feed ballpython dies at 20, perhaps it was due to obesity or overfeeding, or perhaps it was something else (a secondary effect of PF or something completly unrelated), or just age. I don't aprove of powerfeeding and would never do it.
I think there is a HUGE problem when trying to measure the effects of "over" feeding and determining "how much is too much". To begin with our data pool is mostly juvinile or adult BP (few over age 8), second we don't usualy have necropsy data on death, we know relativly little about BP fisiology (health problems related to or provoqued by obesity, minimum and maximums of required nutrients, etc)... so on and so forth.

At this point most of it just seems speculation.

Obvious facts. Visual obecity is bad and should dealt with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

That is a very good point there seclark.

Putting things into context. Humans have a much higher metabolism than reptiles, in relation we eat small amounts often to maintain energy for day to day activities. Ball pythons are recommended to be fed 10-15% of their body weight, I weigh 85kg, but I don't eat 8.5-13kg at each meal...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

I think we cannot compare our eating needs/habits to those of a reptile...

---

Yes we can. This was something I did a couple of weeks ago and had some interesting conclusions. I am 6'-3" and weigh 220lbs. According to the 10-15% rule, I would need to eat 22-33 lbs of food. Impossible, I thought. Then I remebered that is for one week, which works out to 3.1- 4.7 lbs of food per day. So I headed off to the kitchen to look at some of my food. Keep in mind that this doesn't account for calories, only food weight. Here's what I found:
1- can of green beens, wt. 16oz
1- can of corn.............wt. 16oz
1- can of tuna.............wt. 16oz
Now, look at it like this: Servings per container,
1-can of green bean- 3.5
1-can of corn--------3.5
1 can of tuna-------- 2
My conclusion: If you eat 1 can of tuna and 2 cans of vegetables, that is 2 servings of meat and 7 servings of vegetables per day. Toss in a couple slices of whole grain bread, a couple pieces of fruit and a glass of milk, and you fall within the 10-15% per week and I also comply with that nutritional pyramid thing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

But your comments about feeding less on a set schedule are interesting. I have been mulling this over in my mind. I think that 10-15% of body weight one a week is too much, I feel that 5% would be more suitable each week. This would allow less fat to be stored on the animal whilst still providing it with all the nourishment it needs to grow...

---

I have also been wrestling with this concerning my adult male. Applying the 10-15% rule, I should feed him a rat weighing 230-352g every 14 days. I know for a fact that he will not eat rats this big. I have offered. Instead, I cut the weight in half and offer a rat 120-160g every 7 days. Usually 3 days after eating, he will start roaming his tank at night until next feeding day. I was thinking about putting him on a diet and feeding him the smaller size rat every 14 days, which would equal 10-15% of his weight per month, instead of per week, and give him another week between feedings to roam off some his love handles. But then again, I'm not so sure he is even overweight, since there are no recommended size/weight charts. He doesn't look overweight, just dominant. I was thinking about starting another thread and see if people will post the length and weight of some of their males so I can at least get a comparison to work off of...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bundu Boy

These are my thoughts, I've not seen hard facts that feeding smaller meals is detrimental, but I've found plenty saying that feeding every 7-14 days is too much...

---

There have been alot of good posts in this thread on both sides of this issue. The fact remains that there are just no conclusive scientific experiments. Why don't some of the members in the Biology, Zoology, or veterinary fields just apply for a government grant to conduct the studies. I mean, if people can get grants to study cow farts and earthworm mating, surely they would give out a grant for research that would benefit the multi-billion dollar reptile industry...

Rob

I am finding this thread very useful thank you for posting it .:gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vypyrz

There have been alot of good posts in this thread on both sides of this issue. The fact remains that there are just no conclusive scientific experiments. Why don't some of the members in the Biology, Zoology, or veterinary fields just apply for a government grant to conduct the studies. I mean, if people can get grants to study cow farts and earthworm mating, surely they would give out a grant for research that would benefit the multi-billion dollar reptile industry...

Rob

---

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

:rofl:

i suggest, strongly, that when people have an adult keel over, or heck even a two year old animal... Get a necropsy done by a HERP vet who specifically works with snakes.

the liver, and other vital organs should be closely looked at.

id love to see those vet reports. As all this guessing does noone any good without any veterinary info.

JUST from the necropsies over the years ive seen done on animals, posted in various places over the internet... i find the information truly interesting, and think it will seriously aid our information and guide us to a proper care regimen with all the animals we keep in captivity.

I found this other link:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/s...07/2011956.htm

"At the 168th day [of fasting], the snakes lost about 9-24% of their initial body mass. They also reduced their energy expenditures by an average 80% over the test period.

Measurements revealed the snakes actually grew longer during the fast. He especially noticed that their heads had grown"

Interesting that an almost 6 month fast only lost 9-24% of body mass. I wonder how these fasting periods afect snakes. In humans fasting can have huge detrimental effects such as digestive problems later in life, stomach ulcers, food rejection, no absorption of nutrients, etc. particularly if you go off of a fast with a huge meal instead of slowly "re-conditioning" your tomach to food (many of Ghandi´s followers faced these problems, many of which died shortly after extended fasts). In snakes its probably a completly diferent set of issues, due to the nature of their evolution and environment.

I was just thinking about something else that may contribute to this. What about housing and enclosures? I assume in the wild it goes something like, BP smells rat in hole, BP goes in hole, eats rat, stays in hole until hungry, BP goes off looking for another rat (or something similar). Now, since they are moving and roaming between kills or looking for mates, they would get a certain degree of exercise. I keep refering to my adult male because he is a good example. Currently he is in a 50gal tank, 36 X 18 X 18. After he eats he stays in his hides for about 3 days. But after that he is out roaming the tank, sometimes for hours at night. crawling around, trying to climb the walls etc. And he will do this every night until I feed him again. So he is, in effect, getting some exercise. Now compare that to my snakes who live in a tub.
The only time I see them out of their hides is when they are drinking water, switching hides, or passing waste. They might make a lap or two around the tub then it is back in the hide. I know roaming during the day is a sign of stress, but being nocturnal means they should be "active" at night. So is it possible that by keeping them in tubs, where they only have their hides and water bowl, that we are not providing them with the space to be active and get some needed exercise. I'm not saying that tubs are all bad, just that they may benefit better in a larger, or a tub with a little more room for them to roam, explore, search for food, work all their muscles,whatever you want to call it. Applying my human logic to reptiles, it would be like going to the gym and only doing bench presses and nothing else. Your chest and arms would benefit but your legs and stomach would remain soft and flabby. Kind of like keeping a dog on a short chain with no room to run around. I know that they are not arboreal but they do seem to enjoy climbing over and around branches and things, possibly because it lets them uses their muscles in different ways and burn off some of the calories. So I'm thinking in some cases, it may be not so much over-feeding, but under-excersise. There again, we need that government grant for the research...

Like others have stated, this is a very interesting thread. It really highlights how little is actually known about these guys.

In reference to the discussion about feeding to satiation weekly and whether or not it was power-feeding: I've often read posts on here that after a period of gorging, BPs will go through a fasting period. It seems to me that feeding to satiation just makes sense if the snake will self-regulate how much it ingests.

In reference to shortened lifespan from snakes fed "a lot": There isn't enough information to draw any conclusions on this. A while back I read something that suggested, in general, snakes that are overfed have shortened lifespans but this seemed like observational/anecdotal evidence. In order to test this, you'd need long-term studies with pretty large sample sizes. I just don't see that happening for snakes, ever. Snakes are too long-lived and there's way too many variables with something like this to address.

As for snakes eating 10-15% of their body weight weekly in comparison to humans: It's an interesting argument, but snakes have lower metabolic rates than us; they don't have to provide their own body heat. If we go by that, then 10-15% seems like it'd be too much.

In regards to exercise, I think I'm starting to agree with Vypryz. Roaming in search of food would really burn calories; our snakes in their small enclosures don't ever really do anything. Vypryz, does your guy eat regularly in his large tank? Assuming that it's cluttered enough and ample temps and hides are provided, it seems like the way to go. I'm sure it's harder to manage for you (e.g. cleaning, maintaining temps) but it may just be better for your snake. I'm thinking I should let my girl roam around the floor (supervised of course) a bit more often.

Also, what's pinheading? I've long thought that my snake has a small head in relation to her body. I read something recently that suggested snakes fed larger food items have larger heads; I've fed my snake multiple mice for the past year until recently switching her to rats.

Sorry for the long post, but I hadn't replied in quite a while and wanted to address a few points. Also, I'll mention again that perhaps a length:weight relationship wouldn't be a bad idea. I think there's probably a stronger relationship than we think (addresses the idea of overweight snakes, even though all of our snakes may just be overweight to begin with) but we'd need quite a few snakes to find out anything. Just my thoughts...

-- B

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vypyrz

I was just thinking about something else that may contribute to this. What about housing and enclosures? I assume in the wild it goes something like, BP smells rat in hole, BP goes in hole, eats rat, stays in hole until hungry, BP goes off looking for another rat (or something similar). Now, since they are moving and roaming between kills or looking for mates, they would get a certain degree of exercise. I keep refering to my adult male because he is a good example. Currently he is in a 50gal tank, 36 X 18 X 18. After he eats he stays in his hides for about 3 days. But after that he is out roaming the tank, sometimes for hours at night. crawling around, trying to climb the walls etc. And he will do this every night until I feed him again. So he is, in effect, getting some exercise. Now compare that to my snakes who live in a tub.
The only time I see them out of their hides is when they are drinking water, switching hides, or passing waste. They might make a lap or two around the tub then it is back in the hide. I know roaming during the day is a sign of stress, but being nocturnal means they should be "active" at night. So is it possible that by keeping them in tubs, where they only have their hides and water bowl, that we are not providing them with the space to be active and get some needed exercise. I'm not saying that tubs are all bad, just that they may benefit better in a larger, or a tub with a little more room for them to roam, explore, search for food, work all their muscles,whatever you want to call it. Applying my human logic to reptiles, it would be like going to the gym and only doing bench presses and nothing else. Your chest and arms would benefit but your legs and stomach would remain soft and flabby. Kind of like keeping a dog on a short chain with no room to run around. I know that they are not arboreal but they do seem to enjoy climbing over and around branches and things, possibly because it lets them uses their muscles in different ways and burn off some of the calories. So I'm thinking in some cases, it may be not so much over-feeding, but under-excersise. There again, we need that government grant for the research...

---

I have read basically the same thing. Another thing worth mentioning is that we feed 1 appropriately sized meal because its easy for us. My understanding is that in the wild they will enter a burrow that usually has more than one rodent living inside. Eat the contents of the burrow and then digest till they are hungry. My BP lives in a 3x2x2 plastic enclosure and she exhibits the same behaviors. Eats, rests for 1 to 3 days depending on how many mice she ate. Then roams the enclosure seemingly looking for food. Occasionally like last night I will try to feed a day early. I offered a 34 gram mouse to her (711 grams) 6 days following a meal of 2 mice totallying 64 grams. She refused. Now I was thinking I really should have waited until I returned from a wedding this weekend and fed on Sunday (9 days from her last feeding.) As usual she proved to me that I should trust my instincts. My point with all that data is that if I feed to often she refuses, when she is ready she eats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by branson

Like others have stated, this is a very interesting thread. It really highlights how little is actually known about these guys.

In reference to the discussion about feeding to satiation weekly and whether or not it was power-feeding: I've often read posts on here that after a period of gorging, BPs will go through a fasting period. It seems to me that feeding to satiation just makes sense if the snake will self-regulate how much it ingests.

In reference to shortened lifespan from snakes fed "a lot": There isn't enough information to draw any conclusions on this. A while back I read something that suggested, in general, snakes that are overfed have shortened lifespans but this seemed like observational/anecdotal evidence. In order to test this, you'd need long-term studies with pretty large sample sizes. I just don't see that happening for snakes, ever. Snakes are too long-lived and there's way too many variables with something like this to address.

As for snakes eating 10-15% of their body weight weekly in comparison to humans: It's an interesting argument, but snakes have lower metabolic rates than us; they don't have to provide their own body heat. If we go by that, then 10-15% seems like it'd be too much.

In regards to exercise, I think I'm starting to agree with Vypryz. Roaming in search of food would really burn calories; our snakes in their small enclosures don't ever really do anything. Vypryz, does your guy eat regularly in his large tank? Assuming that it's cluttered enough and ample temps and hides are provided, it seems like the way to go. I'm sure it's harder to manage for you (e.g. cleaning, maintaining temps) but it may just be better for your snake. I'm thinking I should let my girl roam around the floor (supervised of course) a bit more often.

Also, what's pinheading? I've long thought that my snake has a small head in relation to her body. I read something recently that suggested snakes fed larger food items have larger heads; I've fed my snake multiple mice for the past year until recently switching her to rats.

Sorry for the long post, but I hadn't replied in quite a while and wanted to address a few points. Also, I'll mention again that perhaps a length:weight relationship wouldn't be a bad idea. I think there's probably a stronger relationship than we think (addresses the idea of overweight snakes, even though all of our snakes may just be overweight to begin with) but we'd need quite a few snakes to find out anything. Just my thoughts...

-- B

---

Ball Pythons have small heads compared to their body normally but this can be made much worse by over feeding. I don't think this is something you can control by adjusting the size of the food items offered. This is like saying I shouldn't be fat because I only eat a single slice of pizza every hour vs, a whole pizza for dinner. Recently someone posted a study on fasting in snakes and basically found that when snakes fast their heads get bigger to allow the snake to consume a meal it would have otherwise had to pass on. The hungrier it gets the less choosy it can be. The reverse would make sense. If a snake is overfed its head could be staying small to keep it from eating larger and larger prey. The snakes brain isn't controlling these decisions nor is its stomach. The snakes body chemistry is, and the body chemistry doesn't know what size meals it gets only the quantity and frequency of food. In orther words two 17 gram mice will have the same effect on the body chemistry as one 34 gram mouse.

I really feel like the 10% - 15% rule needs to be scaled back as the snake gets older and bigger. My now 711 gram BP will take about 8% of her body weight weekly but this is an average. She will take 1 mouse 5%, 2 mice 10% or 3 mice once so far 15%. I let her decide and I keep detailed records. She will also skip a meal on occasion. I have seen many people defend the 10% - 15% "rule" but admit that they feed every 10 days or every 2 weeks. It would be really interesting to gets some hard data for snakes that regulate themselves well. Of course snakes are individuals. I have one fat cat and one skinny cat. They eat the same food and eat as much or as little as they want. If we took the weights, lengths, feeding dates, deification and urates dates, feeding dates, weight and number of food items offered for snakes that regulate themselves. Included husbandry data and enclosure type and size. We might be able to get a good idea of how much mass a BP should consume weekly. It would then be pretty easy to look at our individual schedules, prey types and decide if we need to make adjustments. If you are comming out low then you take a day of your schedule or add a day and offer another food item, or offer larger food items if you can do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

If we took the weights, lengths, feeding dates, deification and urates dates, feeding dates, weight and number of food items offered for snakes that regulate themselves. Included husbandry data and enclosure type and size. We might be able to get a good idea of how much mass a BP should consume weekly. It would then be pretty easy to look at our individual schedules, prey types and decide if we need to make adjustments. If you are comming out low then you take a day of your schedule or add a day and offer another food item, or offer larger food items if you can do that.

---

Someone needs to apply for that grant.

Here is another forum that did a study on regular vs irregular eaters. I will note that the sample size was VERY small, but it still sheds some light on the issue. They deal with the weights, length and age relationship in BP. (Note: If we already have an obese population, these values are above where they should be, but it still gives us an idea of captive breed population).
http://www.fororeptiles.org/foros/sh...1947#post11947

Skip to the charts if you don't want to read all the details, or you can always use an online translator.

Ball pythons grow their entire life, as they age it slows down so maybe if you just make more measurements over time time when you notice the snakes growth slowing put another day or two between feedings.I also believe that a more sporatic feeding schedule is healthier for the snakes. I noticed if i increase and decrease the time between feedings that not only do they stay more active in the persuit but I have fewer problems of my animals going on hunger strikes.

I have also noticed that if I keep the warm side warmer and the cold side colder my snakes tend to be much more active in the attempt to try and stay comfortable so maybe thats a good option for some who are worried about their snakes getting fat.

Also I would be inclined to believe that especially for the constant feeders that if you have the scent of a feeder animal in their tank at all times that they would most likly be more active because they would be looking for the food and not finding it so they would keep moving.

Great thread!

Also can anyone point me in the direction of a good thread on rotting eggs, i just got my first clutch ever eight days ago and one of the eggs is turning yellowish green and smells a little funny. Thanks

i havn't read everyones response because i'd be here all night so i dont know if this was mentioned yet... but like the black lab story you guys were talking about i think everybodies snake would be different in their own way.. for instance, would a snake that is handled more, out of the tub, stretching and moving around be more in shape then buddies snake that weights 1500g pumps out all kinds of eggs but is constantly curled up in its home??? in the long run who would live longer? who knows right!! all i know is that if my snakes arn't hungry they wont eat... i'll offer them food thats adequate to the girth of their body every sunday.. some days they take it, some days they dont.. but i do make sure that i bring my snake outside when ever i can to let them stretch and move around for a bit..

This isn't something you have to guess at.

Weigh the snake regularly. Is it gaining a lot of weight? If it's an adult, and hasn't just come out of breeding, then you are feeding it too much. Is it losing weight? You are not feeding it enough. If it's barely gaining weight, just a little bit, then you are feeding it the right amount of food.

No need for guessing at how much energy it's using, or how much food it needs--just weigh it.

Humans once they reach adulthood to stay healthy don't want to gain anymore weight. In fact if at 21 years old if a person were to gain a pound a year then by the time they are 40 they will be 19 pounds overweight. Would any suggest that maybe there is a point when a bp should stop gaining weight?

PS when was the spell check added, I like! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seclark

Humans once they reach adulthood to stay healthy don't want to gain anymore weight. In fact if at 21 years old if a person were to gain a pound a year then by the time they are 40 they will be 19 pounds overweight. Would any suggest that maybe there is a point when a bp should stop gaining weight?

PS when was the spell check added, I like! ;)

---

I hate it when people compare snakes to people but sure lets run with it. Ok so people live on average about 65 years world wide. Maybe more for the US. Lets say 80 for sake of math. For sake of math lets also say humans are full grown at age 20. I had considerable broadening of my shoulders till I was about 21. Growth slows much sooner of course. So lets further assume BP live to be 24 years old (again sake of math). So humans grow for 1/4 of there life. If snakes did the same you would see them continue to grow till age 6ish. According to this pole about 28% of people have a ball python that's over 5 years old. I think you would also find that the average age of BP kept by people on this forum is well under 6 years old. So for that vast majority of people the snake should be growing. If your 6 year old snake was at a healthy weight and generally maintained that weight till it died then that would be fine. The question is really what is a healthy weight?

Sorry forgot to post the poll

http://www.ball-pythons.net/modules/...php?pollid=759