Are we feeding too much?

[Angelique]

I agree with most of you that this is a very interesting topic, and also one which lacks research and data.

Where did the "rule of thumb" of 10-15% of body weight come from? I have heard this mentioned countless times, but i haven't found the source or the research on which it is based.
What exactly does "appropriately sized" mean. Is it anything smaller than its' girth or similar in size to its girth? Almost all breeder websites mention "feeding on appropriately sized prey". I don't know what this means, but it sounds horrendously ambiguous to my ears. Could anyone clarify what this parameter is? (There are some rats that are slim, and quite long. How do these equate? I understand that there is a small chance of axfixia if the prey item is too large and the snake can't regurgitate it, but it seems that the mass of the prey item would also be an important parameter, not just the girth.)

Unfortunately there is not much data on how BP live-eat in the wild. Never forgetting that Reptiles are NOT Mammals, and both have survived millions of years due to differing evolution, it is interesting that humans have evolved to quicken their metabolism when there is a high availability of food an reduce it to conserve fat when there is not. It seems snakes in the wild, and reptiles in general prefer large meals at large intervals (energy spent/reward?). I read in a science publication that aprox. 30% of produced energy from a snakes meal is used to process it. It would be interesting to see some data on this... ex (just blabbing values).
Constricting costs aprox 10kj +1kj for each additional 20gr.
Swallowing costs 20kj.
Stomach processing costs 40kj +10kj for each 20gr.

That could probably give us more information about if smaller more often is better than larger less frequent, or routine vs "whenever i remember". (All within reasonable limits).

I met a grown male bp 1.5 mts ~1200gr, that got 2 mice a month, and seemed to be content, he wasn't plump, but he didn't seem famine struck, and didn't seem lethargic. I gave the owner my .02 that she should be feeding more, but then again, perhaps she had it right all along, and we are the ones that are over feeding.

[Bundu Boy]

I agree with most of you that this is a very interesting topic, and also one which lacks research and data.

Where did the "rule of thumb" of 10-15% of body weight come from? I have heard this mentioned countless times, but i haven't found the source or the research on which it is based.
What exactly does "appropriately sized" mean. Is it anything smaller than its' girth or similar in size to its girth? Almost all breeder websites mention "feeding on appropriately sized prey". I don't know what this means, but it sounds horrendously ambiguous to my ears. Could anyone clarify what this parameter is? (There are some rats that are slim, and quite long. How do these equate? I understand that there is a small chance of axfixia if the prey item is too large and the snake can't regurgitate it, but it seems that the mass of the prey item would also be an important parameter, not just the girth.)

Unfortunately there is not much data on how BP live-eat in the wild. Never forgetting that Reptiles are NOT Mammals, and both have survived millions of years due to differing evolution, it is interesting that humans have evolved to quicken their metabolism when there is a high availability of food an reduce it to conserve fat when there is not. It seems snakes in the wild, and reptiles in general prefer large meals at large intervals (energy spent/reward?). I read in a science publication that aprox. 30% of produced energy from a snakes meal is used to process it. It would be interesting to see some data on this... ex (just blabbing values).
Constricting costs aprox 10kj +1kj for each additional 20gr.
Swallowing costs 20kj.
Stomach processing costs 40kj +10kj for each 20gr.

That could probably give us more information about if smaller more often is better than larger less frequent, or routine vs "whenever i remember". (All within reasonable limits).

I met a grown male bp 1.5 mts ~1200gr, that got 2 mice a month, and seemed to be content, he wasn't plump, but he didn't seem famine struck, and didn't seem lethargic. I gave the owner my .02 that she should be feeding more, but then again, perhaps she had it right all along, and we are the ones that are over feeding.

Thanks Angelique

You are correct in your statements, how much is too much?

My view is that once a ball reaches adulthood weight gain should be slow and steady. There is very little (if any) research on feeding habits in the wild so the only way that I see is to record and monitor growth.

How much fat reserves are needed for females when producing eggs? We have all heard that overweight females are more prone to producing poor clutches. So is pumping them full of food to get them up to breeding weight a good thing? I'm not sure.

We have also heard that fat males can be lazy breeders, so why pump them full of food?

As i stated before, I believe that feeding pre-adult balls weekly is giving them the nutrition for their rapid growth, but once adulthood is reached their nutritional requirements change, I believe that feeding should be cut back to prevent excess fat build-up, but feeding should be enough to allow the animal to gain some weight.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Personally, I feed up my males because they tend to stop eating for the breeding season, and lose substantial weight as a result. Same with the females--I think they should be slightly above the previous year's weight going into the breeding season. That's why it's so important to keep records.
With the animals that pig out, you have to watch it, and feed them smaller prey so they don't become obese--but a lot of the animals are intermittantly picky, and I just feed them whenever they will eat, because they just don't eat enough to actually get fat.

Ball pythons are individuals--they have a huge range of adult sizes and weights. What's a good normal weight gain for one would be too much for another. My big 3500-4000 gram female can drop 800 grams with one clutch. That's a vast amount of weight. Her mate barely weighed that much.

Record keeping is the key to all of this--you have to keep track of how much weight they're gaining, how much they weighed the previous year at the same time, and how much they use when they produce eggs. You keep track of how much the males gain and lose too. It's the best way to ensure that you're actually feeding them properly. You have to keep those records for ALL the animals, if you're going to keep them at the right weights and maximize production and health. It's not enough to just throw a rat into all the bins once a week.

[Bundu Boy]

Hey All

Thanks for the great replies.

So I think we all agree that keeping records and acting accordingly is the name of the game here.

But "acting accordingly" is also up for debate......

What are your thoughts on acceptable monthly/annual weight gain?

Some may say that they want their females breeding by their second winter, this may be when the females are 18 months old, to do this weight gain would need to be around 100g per month(if you breed at 1800g). That is quite a lot, too much imo.

Some may want their females breeding by their 3rd winter (30 months), so weight gain to 1800g would be around 60g per month. This I feel is healthier for the animal.

In this situation it looks like we have to work backwards, target age/weight first and then how much weight required to be put on to get there.

So what are you thoughts on 'healthy' monthly weight gain? Again it'd be great to hear from the experienced keepers who have kept balls for a long time, but comments from all keepers would be appreciated....

[WingedWolfPsion]

Oh, I don't think it really applies to hatchlings--honestly, I see no reason not to feed them as much as they will eat. If you overfeed them, they'll go off feed for a while, then start again. You will learn to cut back the frequency. Some animals are happy to eat as much as they can cram in, and their growth rates are extraordinary--but then, perhaps it is those animals that are destined to be 3000 gram rather than 1500 gram adults.

Too much attention is probably focused on a 'breeding weight' without regard for the age and feeding habits of the animal. An animal that reaches 1500 grams in its first year can lay eggs, but it's probably not a mature adult. Likewise, the animal that barely makes 1500 by age 3 but eats regularly is probably mature. The one that is finicky--perhaps it should wait a bit extra.

The reality is that we don't know for sure, and those records are crucial to our and other peoples' future understanding.
We DO know that some ball pythons never get more than 4 feet, while others get up to 6. What's a healthy weight gain for a 4 footer as opposed to a 6 footer? Obviously not the same!
If you don't know what size your ball python is aiming for, how could you know whether it's gaining too much or too little weight? Remember, ball pythons will grow fastest in their first 3 years.

My tactic is to let the animal decide--and so far, they all SEEM healthy. Until that's proven to be wrong, I'll continue it. Baby ball pythons do not appear to get fat beyond a certain point (power-feeding isn't factored into this--I assume the snakes eat as much as they want to, and no more). Instead, they grow larger overall. Because of this, I'm not sure that growing too quickly is any cause for concern. There's just no evidence to suggest it--speculating that it may be harmful is just as much of a guess as speculating that it's harmless.

[Bundu Boy]

Oh, I don't think it really applies to hatchlings--honestly, I see no reason not to feed them as much as they will eat. If you overfeed them, they'll go off feed for a while, then start again. You will learn to cut back the frequency. Some animals are happy to eat as much as they can cram in, and their growth rates are extraordinary--but then, perhaps it is those animals that are destined to be 3000 gram rather than 1500 gram adults.

Too much attention is probably focused on a 'breeding weight' without regard for the age and feeding habits of the animal. An animal that reaches 1500 grams in its first year can lay eggs, but it's probably not a mature adult. Likewise, the animal that barely makes 1500 by age 3 but eats regularly is probably mature. The one that is finicky--perhaps it should wait a bit extra.

The reality is that we don't know for sure, and those records are crucial to our and other peoples' future understanding.
We DO know that some ball pythons never get more than 4 feet, while others get up to 6. What's a healthy weight gain for a 4 footer as opposed to a 6 footer? Obviously not the same!
If you don't know what size your ball python is aiming for, how could you know whether it's gaining too much or too little weight? Remember, ball pythons will grow fastest in their first 3 years.

My tactic is to let the animal decide--and so far, they all SEEM healthy. Until that's proven to be wrong, I'll continue it. Baby ball pythons do not appear to get fat beyond a certain point (power-feeding isn't factored into this--I assume the snakes eat as much as they want to, and no more). Instead, they grow larger overall. Because of this, I'm not sure that growing too quickly is any cause for concern. There's just no evidence to suggest it--speculating that it may be harmful is just as much of a guess as speculating that it's harmless.

Yep, my thinking generally moves towards age as an appropriate indicator for when to breed. There are some female balls out there that are 5yrs plus but not over 2000g, and they are good breeders. Each snake is different.

We discussed at length that sub-adult balls need the food as they are growing quickly. Once adulthood is reached (IMO +-3 yrs for females and 2 yrs or so for males) is where I feel we need to take more care over feeding schedules.

[Angelique]

Hey All
Some may say that they want their females breeding by their second winter, this may be when the females are 18 months old, to do this weight gain would need to be around 100g per month(if you breed at 1800g). That is quite a lot, too much imo.

Some may want their females breeding by their 3rd winter (30 months), so weight gain to 1800g would be around 60g per month. This I feel is healthier for the animal.

It has been my experience (if somewhat limited) that each snake grows at it's own pace. And not necesarily (however illogical this sounds) based on how much you feed it. A fellow friend followed the rule of offering untill the BP decided tu ignore the meal placed before him. His bp aprox. doubled his weigh every month for the first 6 months or so, and then it's growth slowed down, to about 30-50 grams a month.

I have to agree with you folks, after growth has slowed (perhaps 18-24months and not 3 years) we need to be more carefull about overfeeding.

[Aleria]

It has been my experience (if somewhat limited) that each snake grows at it's own pace. And not necesarily (however illogical this sounds) based on how much you feed it. A fellow friend followed the rule of offering untill the BP decided tu ignore the meal placed before him. His bp aprox. doubled his weigh every month for the first 6 months or so, and then it's growth slowed down, to about 30-50 grams a month.

I have to agree with you folks, after growth has slowed (perhaps 18-24months and not 3 years) we need to be more carefull about overfeeding.

I thought that it was already shown that snakes that are power fed to that extent exhibit a much shorter lifespan though? With that being the case I'd still feel like it could be considered overfeeding since it is having a detrimental effect on the snake even if it doesn't seem to be overweight.
It just seems there are multiple issues when it comes to over feeding, obesity and shorter life spans being the main problems. I just feel like those that feed more than what is usually recommended just because they want to get a snake to breeding size quicker are considering their wants far more than the needs of the snake. Sure it might not be obese but you're in affect taking away many years of it's life.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Again, please remember that POWER FEEDING means tricking the snake into eating more than it WANTS to--for example, introducing a second prey item into the snake's mouth as it is swallowing the first, so that it keeps swallowing. It does NOT refer to simply feeding the snake more often.

Powerfeeding is associated with 'pinhead syndrome' and health problems. Feeding more often hasn't caused these, to the best of my knowledge.

[Aleria]

I guess I used the incorrect term in response to her particular post. But in quoting her post I was referring to the statement that more food items were offered until the snake finally refused to take any more. So it wasn't about feeding it more often, but her statement that it was being given extra food each sitting which resulted in the doubling of it's weight each month.
I would think this would be considered to have similar results to power feeding due to the rapid weight gain and growth rate.