How do you know...?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Again, why are you so damn picky today?

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I'm always picky when it comes to genetics, because it's the least understood aspect of the hobby, and the one area where bad advice is given constantly.

If this conversation were about how to ensure proper temperature, and someone recommended the little analog dial gauges, they would be jumped from all sides in a heartbeat. Giving equally credible advice about breeding prospects however, is apparently welcome.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

Then what about the yellowbelly??
His point is exactly that it doesn't matter for him, because he *does* know, but plenty of the people here asking questions DON'T know. That's why they're asking!
That's why if you say "het means it carries one copy of the gene needed to make a morph" then it will confuse them when they're going to look for a het spider or pastel

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I said it in the terms of our hobby. It's called a "het". Sorry you 2 don't feel that way. But that's what people refer to when they say het, and you both know that.

I am perfectly aware of genetics, and nothing I said was incorrect. So again, why are we making such a fuss over this?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I am perfectly aware of genetics, and nothing I said was incorrect. So again, why are we making such a fuss over this?

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Why? Because not everyone around here are "perfectly aware". Here are a few samples, for fun, try and count the incorrect answers given...

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=63553

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=65967

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=65499

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=65088

So your going to hold me accountable for not fully explaining what a het or homo is? I thought it was gone over quite thoroughly here, and I didn't see the need to reexplain it in this thread.
Your preaching to the choir!!

*or rather, beating their heads in with the bible*

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I said it in the terms of our hobby. It's called a "het". Sorry you 2 don't feel that way. But that's what people refer to when they say het, and you both know that.

I am perfectly aware of genetics, and nothing I said was incorrect. So again, why are we making such a fuss over this?

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Yes, we know it, which is why we're able to explain it to people who don't. You know it too, so why are you unable? Actually I think the second time was more accurate, but I also think this would work: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=52847
"het" is (almost always) referring to a carrier for a recessive trait; I think "het" is distinct from "heterozygous" in this sense. But I also think it's good to explain said distinction.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

Yes, we know it, which is why we're able to explain it to people who don't. You know it too, so why are you unable? Actually I think the second time was more accurate, but I also think this would work: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=52847
"het" is (almost always) referring to a carrier for a recessive trait; I think "het" is distinct from "heterozygous" in this sense. But I also think it's good to explain said distinction.

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So now I'm unable to explain genetics?

Thanks, because your dictionary wording about the yellow belly was spot on! :rolleyes:

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"het" is (almost always) referring to a carrier for a recessive trait; I think "het" is distinct from "heterozygous" in this sense.

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Now how is that at all different from what I just said, and what you guys just jumped on me about??

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

Why? Because not everyone around here are "perfectly aware". Here are a few samples, for fun, try and count the incorrect answers given...

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=63553

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=65967

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=65499

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=65088

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"Thanks a lot for the explanation ctrlfreq.. That helps alot . I wasnt thinking of it as heterozygous and homozygous and i was totally confused"
haha that's kind of useful to your argument

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Now how is that at all different from what I just said, and what you guys just jumped on me about??

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like this "But I also think it's good to explain said distinction."
Although I don't know what you mean by dictionary definition...I didn't really realize there were dictionaries for snake genetics...Everything I've learned has been from here.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

like this "But I also think it's good to explain said distinction."
Although I don't know what you mean by dictionary definition...I didn't really realize there were dictionaries for snake genetics...Everything I've learned has been from here.

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Lol, again. I don't know why I have to explain what het and homo is, when it was gone through already in this thread. my "it's called a 'het'" was more of just an after thought as to why people call recessive hets 'hets'.

I didn't see the use of saying it again, when everyone else already had.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Lol, again. I don't know why I have to explain what het and homo is, when it was gone through already in this thread. my "it's called a 'het'" was more of just an after thought as to why people call recessive hets 'hets'.

I didn't see the use of saying it again, when everyone else already had.

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well only because you offered an explanation. If you don't want to give one, by all means, don't! I don't think it's your responsibility at all. But as someone who does understand it, I do think it's our responsibility to not give information that is actually inaccurate, or implies something that would be inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

well only because you offered an explanation. If you don't want to give one, by all means, don't! I don't think it's your responsibility at all. But as someone who does understand it, I do think it's our responsibility to not give information that is actually inaccurate, or implies something that would be inaccurate.

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Again, please explain to me what part of mine was inaccurate or implied inaccuracy?

If we're still on the whole not expanding the het thing, I think I'm going to blow a gasket.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Again, please explain to me what part of mine was inaccurate or implied inaccuracy?

If we're still on the whole not expanding the het thing, I think I'm going to blow a gasket.

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The question was "what is a het?" (at least the question that you were responding to, which is clearly the case because you were annoyed about it already when you made the first post) and you implied that anytime someone says "het" they mean that it carries one recessive allele. And that's not the whole story. That's why it's an implication, and not outright dishonest.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

and you implied that anytime someone says "het" they mean that it carries one recessive allele. And that's not the whole story. That's why it's an implication, and not outright dishonest.

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Okay, so that's not what someone means when they say het?

Are we all dishonest about it, or is it just the culture of the hobby we are a part of?

I think maybe your picking a fight with me that I had no hand in deciding in the first place.

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Recessive= 2 copies of the same allele needed to create the phenotype (expression). 1 copy is called a "het" and appears normal.

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In the subtext of 'Recessive', when the animal has 1 copy of the gene, it is called a het, and appears normal.

That's what it reads to me, and I imagine many others.

This description was not extended to the other 2 types, was not grouped or blanketed in either. It wasn't at the end of the other two, so I think the implications of my "it's called a het" should have ended there with the recessive.

If your going to go on about this, I will have to kindly decline any further responses.

I've made myself very clear, and I simply don't understand the continued statements from you.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

In the subtext of 'Recessive', when the animal has 1 copy of the gene, it is called a het, and appears normal.

That's what it reads to me, and I imagine many others.

This description was not extended to the other 2 types, was not grouped or blanketed in either. It wasn't at the end of the other two, so I think the implications of my "it's called a het" should have ended there with the recessive.

If your going to go on about this, I will have to kindly decline any further responses.

I've made myself very clear, and I simply don't understand the continued statements from you.

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That's why it's only *implied*
Because you didn't include anything about hets for dominant or co-dom, it was implied that nothing from either group is "called a het" That's been exactly my point the whole time. The point is that hets don't exist only for recessive traits, but co-doms too, and sometimes even dominant traits such as referring to how only het spiders exist.
If the whole story was just explained simply and succinctly, or if newbies/people with questions were just directed to the thread I posted earlier, then there would be a lot less confusion in the end.
Even if it takes a couple of posts to answer all their questions right at first, then it will help in the end by ending all the misconceptions.

I strongly believe it is important to NEVER teach something incorrectly. Simplify when needed, but never to the point of being incorrect. Which is why, on the 1st page of this thread, before the whole debate started, I posted an attempt to explain both the scientifically correct meaning of het/heterozygous, AND how the term is usually used in the BP hobby.

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Originally Posted by kc261

Het is short for heterozygous. It is a genetic term. You probably know that genes come in pairs. Het means that in a particular pair of genes, there are 2 different ones. For example, one is normal and one is the gene for albino. In talking about BPs, people usually use het to mean a snake is het for one of the recessive traits, and the result is that the snake appears normal, but carries the genetics to produce that recessive trait.

Technically, a mojave (and many other BP morphs) is het. If a snake had 2 mojave genes, it wouldn't appear mojave anymore, it appears leucistic. But usually BP people won't use the term het when talking about co-dom morphs.

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It is kind of sad that when Ctrlfreq starting trying to correct the simplified to the point of being wrong explanations that were posted, he got it wrong also.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

Heterozygous means you carry one normal and one active allele for a particular gene. Dominant and Co-dominant genes both produce visible mutations in their heterozygous form.

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No. Heterozygous has NOTHING to do with which genes are carried, only that a pair has 1 each of 2 different things. They could be normal, or not.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

the fact is....heterozygous ONLY means that the two alleles present are not the same. It doesn't matter what the two alleles are, as long as they're different. It doesn't matter if one is simple recessive and the other is dominant, or if it's more complex than that. "hetero-" means different and "homo-" means the same (think heterosexual, homogenized, homophone, etc...)

HOWEVER..."het" (not "heterozygous") in the snake community pretty much does mean "normal with 1 allele for a recessive trait" because there's generally a name already for the heterozygous co-doms, and there's no distinction for the heterozygous vs. homozygous forms of the dominant traits.

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Thank you! Someone else finally gets it right! Also another attempt to explain both the scientifically correct meaning, and the way it is used in the BP community.

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

Baby Steps...if you start telling someone who has no idea about genetics..."Heterozygous means you carry one normal and one active allele for a particular gene. Dominant and Co-dominant genes both produce visible mutations in their heterozygous form."...it will simply go right over their head.

It's easier for me and others to grasp the little words :) Later on when I feel like studying deeper in to the more technical genetic terms and how they work, then I will keep it in my own mind unless i'm talking to someone who is on the same level and understands genetics the way i do.

but when someone wants to know what a het is, I just give them an answer they might be able to grasp. If they're really that interested and want to learn more, then I'm sure they will :) :gj:

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First of all, I want to make this clear before I start that any anger that shows through is not directed at Nathan, but rather at my daughter's teachers and public schools in general that seem to think teaching something that is WRONG is ok if they think they kids aren't advanced enough for the right answer yet.

No no no! If it is easier to "grasp little words", fine. But do not oversimplify to the point of being incorrect! That is just horrible and it makes it harder to learn the correct answer later. You cannot assume people will go off and find more in depth answers when you have given them an answer that is presented as being final and definitive. You have basically told them there is no point in going in search of more in depth stuff.

Now, I think there is nothing wrong with "a Het means it carries one half of the genetic code needed to produce a visual mutation" IF it also comes with some sort of explanation along the lines of "usually when talking about BPs..." or "enough to get you by for now" so that the reader understands that the answer is a simplification and may not apply in all circumstances. That invites them to ask more questions or search for in depth explanations if they want.

Really, I don't think BP morph genetics need to be simplified. There is nothing in them that I did not learn when I was first introduced to genetics in 7th grade. Dominant, recessive, co-dominance/incomplete dominance, punnett squares, the meaning of the the odds and the fact that the odds are not guarantees. All of it. 7th grade. In fact, I'd guess that part of why so many people find genetics confusing is NOT because it is a hard subject, but because of all the incomplete and sometimes incorrect information that is floating around.

People complain about how "kids these days" don't know how to do math. I'll tell you why! My daughter has been marked wrong on a math test for writing that .33 = 33/100 She was "supposed to" say that it equalled 1/3. But it DOESN'T! Her answer was the technically correct one. And if any of you want to argue with me that it is close enough, then I'll happily give you 3 piles of .33 million dollars, and you can give me a million dollars back.

Also, on a recent homework assignment, she was supposed to list the 3 factors that determine what life forms can be found in a particular part of the ocean. I can list at least 6. Temperature, salinity, currents, depth, light, what other life forms are found there, etc. Most of those are really at least 2 things, for example temperature is not just current temperature, but how much it fluctuates, depth is not just how deep you are, but also how much further it is until you hit bottom. Yet she is being taught that there are 3 things. Would it really be harder for the teachers, or harder for the kids to understand, if they said "these are the 3 most important; there are others but you don't need to worry about them right now"?

So, please try to post correct answers. DO NOT oversimplify to the point of being incorrect.

I think that it's important on these forums to keep it simple and correct and inform the OP where he/she can go to get more in-depth information. In both cases, this was done in this thread. More in-depth discussion can be started under a new thread in the 'Morphs and Genetics' section ;)

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Originally Posted by kc261

Heterozygous has NOTHING to do with which genes are carried, only that a pair has 1 each of 2 different things. They could be normal, or not.

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Very true, and a horrible oversight on my part. The fact that there may be several different versions of a particular allele is what provides the "suprise" factor when dealing in combination morphs, since we're pretty much in the dark as to which genes are actually involved with each morph in the absence of a complete BP genome map.

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Originally Posted by kc261

My daughter has been marked wrong on a math test for writing that .33 = 33/100 She was "supposed to" say that it equalled 1/3. But it DOESN'T! Her answer was the technically correct one.

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:O:tears:
by the way...do you know what the three things are? (for what things live in the parts of the ocean) I tried to think of which would be the chosen three, but I can't really figure it out.

also, thanks for the props! I say stupid things so often, even things that I would know if I thought it through long enough, that it's pretty good to know that someone who seems to know what they're talking about think that I know what I'M talking about lol

especially what with me being a PhD student in bioengineering- I'd better know basic genetics haha

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Originally Posted by starmom

I think that it's important on these forums to keep it simple and correct and inform the OP where he/she can go to get more in-depth information. In both cases, this was done in this thread. More in-depth discussion can be started under a new thread in the 'Morphs and Genetics' section ;)

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Now THIS is a great post. And you said it in only 3 sentences. That's a skill I need to learn.

The only thing I'll add is that out of the 3, "correct" is the most important. People can always ask for simplification and/or more information if the answer provided doesn't quite do it for them.

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Originally Posted by soy.lor.n

by the way...do you know what the three things are? (for what things live in the parts of the ocean) I tried to think of which would be the chosen three, but I can't really figure it out.

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I don't remember. My daughter might, but she is with her father for the weekend. If I remember to ask Sunday or Monday, I'll post the "correct" answer.