What is the most humane way to "brain" a rat?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Please read the rest of the sentence for instances in which this method is considered acceptable. Our feeder animals are not in a perpetual neonatal state.

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You forgot this part :

Manually applied blunt force trauma to the head has been used primarily to euthanize small laboratory animals with thin craniums.334,340,341 It has also been ap:cens0r:plied for euthanasia of young piglets.

Young piglets are bigger than anything I've fed.

The most important part of this discussion (IMO):

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Euthanasia must be evaluated in terms of ... the skill of those performing it...

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Read it again, and maybe 1 more time. Blunt force trauma to the HEAD is an acceptable means of euthanasia. This is a far cry from putting a rodent in a satchel and bouncing it around searching for that killing blow.

I agree that is not a correct way. I hold them by the tail and deliver 1 blow to them. Instant. Or if it's too small or big to properly do the tail method. I turn and pull on their heads. Same as a chicken. One quick precise motion.

I've seen blunt force to the head recommended as a euthanasia method for garters by several very experienced keepers (since they're native you see a lot more people who have terribly injured ones that they've found in roads or half-eaten by cats). Don't know how well that transfers to mammals, but it seems like the same basic principle.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

The most important part of this discussion (IMO):

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I couldn't have said it better. You can gas properly or break necks properly. We are all arguing the polar ends of each side. What has to be heard though is there is proper ways to do both. People should not get flack for choosing their method.


If you truly care about animal welfare you would raise your own animals or know the farmer who raised them. If you have ever bought food from a grocery store you can never ever discuss animal ethics to me. Ever. Eat anywhere but your house? That chicken cow pig or turkey was raised in a 1x1 or 3x3 it's whole life. Forced food and had blisters all over it. Do you drink store bought milk? The blood and puss from those poor cows udders is bleached out and homogenized. Because those poor babies are hooked up to vacuum pumps that milk them dry to the point of death. I raise and grow all my own food. I raise organic mice and rats. Yes. My rats and mice eat better than most humans. Every one of my animals is raised and slaughtered humanely. Take care of something ever day for a year then kill it. Tell me you wouldn't want it to be done as fast and with as least pain as possible. If it was acceptable to gas animals we would have gas houses for animal production. Not slaughter houses. Be real. Think. If we are getting into an ethics discussion rather than a question about how to properly kill mice without co2 then let's do that dance. But.

OP wanted the proper way to kill mice without c02. He asked me in PM because he didn't want to get ridiculed more. Grow up people.

Deep sea fishing catch an eel to the point of inability to retrieve the hook. Bash it's head with a baseball bat. It's quick and painless for the eel and it won't live a year in agony then die. Every fishing boat has a bat on it.

Saturday night is feeding night. While y'all are arguing about what's humane I'm watching my snakes either eat as nature intended for those that are not YET eating f/t. Or eating f/t that were despatched correctly and professionally by the breeder who is properly trained to humanly kill them. IMO unless you spend some time being taught the correct way to kill your feeders, by a vet or scientist!!!, then let the snake (who is far more educated to kill effectively then the average person) do it or change them to f/t. If they are heated properly and not a soaking wet mess with substrate stuck to them the snake will not know the difference between f/k and f/t.


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I can tell when people cook with frozen veggies or meat. Can't you?

http://www.extension.umn.edu/food/fo...reezing-foods/
www.gcca.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/ThawingTempering.pdf


​Cell walls break down and deteriorate after a freezing and thawing. Nutrition is lost. Bacteria levels rise.

First link is how to do it properly. But I doubt this happens. Again methods and practice vs reality.

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Originally Posted by nucklehead97

I usually put the rat in a bag and slam it on the counter or wall or something and it usually takes a few hits to finally finish. And yes I know that this is barbaric so please refrain from bashing me for how I feed my snakes because I am trying to do it better. So how do you guys that feed f/k do it?

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Blunt force trauma is probably closest to your current method but it's all about location, location, location if you aim for humane. For smaller rodents, a simple flick of the finger does the trick. For larger rodents, something a bit heavier is best. You can hold them by the tail with one hand and use the other to give a swift blow to the head with your object of choice. Keep in mind that the longer you hold a rodent by the tail the more they are going to struggle making it harder for your aim to be true.

Another method of blunt force trauma involves swinging the rodent into a stationary object. A tabletop corner works well and is my recommendation for beginners as it also give a fair chance at cervical dislocation if their aim isn't the best - just shoot for the head and neck region. You grasp the rodent by the base of the tail and give one steady swing into the object. This doesn't require 360 degrees of fast flying rodent. What matters most is your accuracy and the more swinging around you're doing the less likely you're going to get it right.

I suggest following either with cervical dislocation just in case and it only takes an additional second or two. I'll describe this as if you have just hit the rodent with blunt force trauma and are still holding it by the tail. Keep in mind that a dispatched rodent will often kick those back legs around for a short while but this is no time to get timid. You owe it to the critter to make sure the deed is done.

Continue holding the rat by tail and place it on a table top. Put one finger from your free hand on the neck and firmly pull up on the tail while maintaining pressure with that finger. When pulling the tail you want to go up and slightly towards the head. If you simply pull away you won't have any torque and are likely to just strip the skin off the tail. You can use an object instead of your finger but will feel the dislocation better with both hands on the rodent.

I'm sorry but the people who mass produce rodents for reptile consumption could give 2 flying fbombs about the animals. I have visited multiple locations in multiple States. It is a mass production slaughter house with zero animal welfare in mind. Think of the volumes these places produce. They don't care. The food they feed is cheap. It works. The animal grows sure. Is it good food? Does miracle grow make good tomatoes. Please.

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Originally Posted by John1982

Blunt force trauma is probably closest to your current method but it's all about location, location, location if you aim for humane. For smaller rodents, a simple flick of the finger does the trick. For larger rodents, something a bit heavier is best. You can hold them by the tail with one hand and use the other to give a swift blow to the head with your object of choice. Keep in mind that the longer you hold a rodent by the tail the more they are going to struggle making it harder for your aim to be true.

Another method of blunt force trauma involves swinging the rodent into a stationary object. A tabletop corner works well and is my recommendation for beginners as it also give a fair chance at cervical dislocation if their aim isn't the best - just shoot for the head and neck region. You grasp the rodent by the base of the tail and give one steady swing into the object. This doesn't require 360 degrees of fast flying rodent. What matters most is your accuracy and the more swinging around you're doing the less likely you're going to get it right.

I suggest following either with cervical dislocation just in case and it only takes an additional second or two. I'll describe this as if you have just hit the rodent with blunt force trauma and are still holding it by the tail. Keep in mind that a dispatched rodent will often kick those back legs around for a short while but this is no time to get timid. You owe it to the critter to make sure the deed is done.

Continue holding the rat by tail and place it on a table top. Put one finger from your free hand on the neck and firmly pull up on the tail while maintaining pressure with that finger. When pulling the tail you want to go up and slightly towards the head. If you simply pull away you won't have any torque and are likely to just strip the skin off the tail. You can use an object instead of your finger but will feel the dislocation better with both hands on the rodent.

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Barbarian. Rat murderer. Evil doctor of madness. Jokes. Thank you for this post. Perfect description.

The twitching is electricity being released in nerves. Beheaded turkeys twitch for 2 min usually. From personal experience.

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Originally Posted by John1982

Blunt force trauma is probably closest to your current method but it's all about location, location, location if you aim for humane. For smaller rodents, a simple flick of the finger does the trick. For larger rodents, something a bit heavier is best. You can hold them by the tail with one hand and use the other to give a swift blow to the head with your object of choice. Keep in mind that the longer you hold a rodent by the tail the more they are going to struggle making it harder for your aim to be true.

Another method of blunt force trauma involves swinging the rodent into a stationary object. A tabletop corner works well and is my recommendation for beginners as it also give a fair chance at cervical dislocation if their aim isn't the best - just shoot for the head and neck region. You grasp the rodent by the base of the tail and give one steady swing into the object. This doesn't require 360 degrees of fast flying rodent. What matters most is your accuracy and the more swinging around you're doing the less likely you're going to get it right.

I suggest following either with cervical dislocation just in case and it only takes an additional second or two. I'll describe this as if you have just hit the rodent with blunt force trauma and are still holding it by the tail. Keep in mind that a dispatched rodent will often kick those back legs around for a short while but this is no time to get timid. You owe it to the critter to make sure the deed is done.

Continue holding the rat by tail and place it on a table top. Put one finger from your free hand on the neck and firmly pull up on the tail while maintaining pressure with that finger. When pulling the tail you want to go up and slightly towards the head. If you simply pull away you won't have any torque and are likely to just strip the skin off the tail. You can use an object instead of your finger but will feel the dislocation better with both hands on the rodent.

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Barbarian. Rat murderer. Evil doctor of madness. Jokes. Thank you for this post. Perfect description.

One quick fast motion. I do it like I am throwing a Frisbee. Just don't release. I have done a good few hundred feeders this way. Never seen a mouse suffer. It's instant.

The twitching is electricity being released in nerves. Beheaded turkeys twitch for 2 min usually. From personal experience.

"Saturday night is feeding night. While y'all are arguing about what's humane I'm watching my snakes either eat as nature intended for those that are not YET eating f/t. Or eating f/t that were despatched correctly and professionally by the breeder who is properly trained to humanly kill them. IMO unless you spend some time being taught the correct way to kill your feeders, by a vet or scientist!!!, then let the snake (who is far more educated to kill effectively then the average person) do it or change them to f/t. If they are heated properly and not a soaking wet mess with substrate stuck to them the snake will not know the difference between f/k and f/t."
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Yep..I agree with the above. You keep your herps your way and I'll do the same...

I'm sorry but the people who mass produce rodents for reptile consumption could give 2 flying fbombs about the animals. I have visited multiple locations in multiple States. It is a mass production slaughter house with zero animal welfare in mind. Think of the volumes these places produce. They don't care. The food they feed is cheap. It works. The animal grows sure. Is it good food? Does miracle grow make good tomatoes. Please.

That being said (my previous reply), I just bought 100 frozen hoppers. I've wondered how they were killed. So I can't argue with the above..
Foolish what were your observations when you went to rodent farms?

Nasty. Cheap food in low supply. Scattered bedding and filth. They get steamed before freezing to clean all the poop. Lots of cannibalism from stress and poor husbandry. The rats get fat from not a lot of movement or space. It's a numbers game. They aren't in business because they love mice. They know they can breed 1 thousand lose 400 and maintain profits. I raise my mice and rats organically. My girl loves feeding them. They are happy. We kill them quick. They don't struggle for breath for 2 min while their entire body down to the molecular level gasps and shrivel searching for oxygen.

Ever seen a chicken farm? They are atrocious. People eat chicken. Snakes eat mice. Think about how little the factory workers care.

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Ever seen a chicken farm? They are atrocious. People eat chicken. Snakes eat mice. Think about how little the factory workers care.

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

Ever seen a chicken farm? They are atrocious. People eat chicken. Snakes eat mice. Think about how little the factory workers care.

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Ever seen a chicken farm? They are atrocious. People eat chicken. Snakes eat mice. Think about how little the factory workers care.

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I delivered some egg collecting machines to a chicken farm a long time ago . It was so disgusting !
The flies in the air were so thick, you could hardly breathe.

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

I already got in trouble for discussing this to the Super moderator.

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Actually you got a zero point warning for posting something outside the family friendly guidelines we ask.

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

I say in trouble because out-of all the moderators who have seen my post. You gave me an infraction. Nobody else did. It's like when you are mean to a cop one night drunk. I am on your list now.

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There is no list but your behaviour on this thread does make me suspect there should be. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

Who can we message about being attacked by mods? I have seen this for a month now.

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That would be any member of the ADMIN team ( our names are in red in the user list ) there are four of us if you would rather not have me being the one looking into it.

http://www.ava.gov.sg/FoodSector/Fro...rozen+Meat.htm

Nuff said...the folks I get my feeders from I know personally, and I know how they are kept. I buy only the amount I'm feeding that week in the appropriate sizes. Your generalization of feeder breeders and suppliers is unfair, not everyone keeps their rats and mice in terrible conditions. Just by looking at my snakes you can see that they are obviously getting fed good food, so don't criticize what you don't know.


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Love Dr del. Masterful wordsmith. Delete my post where I wrote the s word instead of feces. I was saying rats were covered in their own feces and urine then steam cleaned before freezing and shipping. I didn't mean to offend by saying the s word. I mean they say it on public TV and radio. S happens. Forest Gump said. I apologize to everyone for cussing so derogatorally.

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

Beyond linking something that refutes everything you said what good does this post serve. How are you supposed to moderate when you attack new members instantly so fiercely. Honestly. He was corgial and curious.

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1# I posted my opinion last time I check I have to right to voice my opinion when someone post something and I am sorry but I cannot condone this

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I usually put the rat in a bag and slam it on the counter or wall or something and it usually takes a few hits to finally finish.

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This is ANIMAL ABUSE plain and simple, and I am not gonna praise someone for it I made my point provided 2 recognized method to do so instead as well as some reading, now I am not here to sugar coat things and I don't care if YOU havNow again as far e an issue with it.

2# The link does not refute anything I said well that is if you can comprehend what you read of course and if you read the adequate paragraph. Again acceptable methods for RODENTS (not human, not pigs)

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Rodents S2.2: Injected barbiturates and barbiturate, combinations, dissociative agent combinations S2.2: Inhaled anesthetics, CO2, CO, tribromoethanol, ethanol, cervical dislocation, decapitation, focused beam microwave irradiation

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Slamming an animal on a table or wall repetitively is not part of those method

3# Now as far as the moderating things I am not moderating this thread am I? See you keep mixing things, personal opinions which I have as a member (and am entitle to have) and doing my job as a mod have nothing to do with one another (my opinion and what I posted would be the same if my name was not in green except I would not be as nice about it). Again YOU are the one that called me out in this thread acting like you were persecuted because I disagreed with you on a previous thread (I disagree with someone I move on you on the other end have to bring this back up here). I only answered you, so who has issues???

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Who can we message about being attacked by mods? I have seen this for a month now.

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Attacked? :8: So disagreeing is attacking? :confusd: or is it the warning for bad language in an unrelated thread attacking? :confusd:

Good news you can contact the admins (name in red) if you feel persecuted, you can also contest your warning and I will be more than happy to forward your complaint for you.

BTW YOU hijacked the thread again forcing me to answer yet again. ;)

For the others sorry I would love to answer but apparently since disagreeing and opinions = attacks I wouldn't want more people to feel persecuted by me it would just ruin my day :rolleyes:

I didn't mean to generalize. I was talking about the 3 facilities I have seen in person over the last 10 years in 3 different states. My personal experience.

That reply wasn't needed. Message me in PM. You are old news like 4 pages ago.

We have been on topic this whole time. Everyone voicing counter opinions.

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Originally Posted by John1982

Read it again, and maybe 1 more time. Blunt force trauma to the HEAD is an acceptable means of euthanasia. This is a far cry from putting a rodent in a satchel and bouncing it around searching for that killing blow.

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I said I put it in a bag and then hit it on the wall or counter a couple times not frantically waiving my arms around hoping that I hit it in the right spot so that it dies. Besides if it comes down to it I would rather a rat suffer than have to take my snake to a vet that will cost exponentially more than some stupid rat that was going to die anyway.

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Originally Posted by nucklehead97

I usually put the rat in a bag and slam it on the counter or wall or something and it usually takes a few hits to finally finish. And yes I know that this is barbaric so please refrain from bashing me for how I feed my snakes because I am trying to do it better. So how do you guys that feed f/k do it?

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Originally Posted by nucklehead97

I said I put it in a bag and then hit it on the wall or counter a couple times not frantically waiving my arms around hoping that I hit it in the right spot so that it dies. Besides if it comes down to it I would rather a rat suffer than have to take my snake to a vet that will cost exponentially more than some stupid rat that was going to die anyway.

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Don't let getting defensive stand in the way of your original goal. You've been offered some alternative methods for euthanizing rodents in this thread per your request.

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

Love Dr del. Masterful wordsmith. Delete my post where I wrote the s word instead of feces. I was saying rats were covered in their own feces and urine then steam cleaned before freezing and shipping. I didn't mean to offend by saying the s word. I mean they say it on public TV and radio. S happens. Forest Gump said. I apologize to everyone for cussing so derogatorally.

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This isnt tv or radio. This is a family friendly board that we as MODs regulate to keep it that way.
Thats the way it is and will be.
Please stop trying to live up to your chosen screen name.


Back on topic.
I am suprised no one has asked: Why not feed live if you cannot properly put down a feeder?

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Back on topic.
I am suprised no one has asked: Why not feed live if you cannot properly put down a feeder?

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I did...in a round about way.."as nature intended". I meant live. For the safety of my snakes I feed f/t most of the time. If I can't then I feed live. I also like to feed live on a occasion if I feel their feeding drive is getting sluggish, especially my normal girl. She doesn't strike and wrap f/t, just inspects it carefully then eats it.


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I'm sure this is not helpful since we're 8 pages later, but here's the input while trying my very best not to freak out about the original description of methods to date:

CO2 is the most humane method beyond chemical shots (which then make it unacceptable to feed). CO2 has to be done properly, otherwise it can be one of the least humane ways. You need to put them in a chamber that is not pre-filled with CO2. Then, you leak the CO2 in very very slowly. The rats will behave very normally like this. Eventually they will get a little bit wobbly and then lie down to sleep. When they are all asleep, you flood the chamber with a lot of CO2. They will die in their sleep and will not gasp, panic, climb up the walls, or do anything else to show stress. This is because they are unconscious before the CO2 is even detectable.

Cervical dislocation is #2 if done properly but it is not totally surefire for everyone. There are many videos and descriptions on the web but the key to it is FIRM pinning behind the head on a flat surface (this alone is pretty traumatic for the rat) and then you need to have the BASE of the tail and be very, very deliberate in your jerk. This is very hard for most people to do. Most of us are not wired to be able to kill another mammal in panic with such brute force.

Please, please, please figure out how to use one of these methods effectively or feed live or get a snake that readily accepts F/T (corns, retics, boas, pretty much any snake that isn't a BP).