this is beautiful i wantted to share

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Originally Posted by interloc

At its simplest form its like this. On one hand if you believe, you will spend eternity in the best place you can think of with the best people and things you can think of, or I turn to worm food. It's a no brainer for me anyways.


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That might be how you see it, but I look forward to the day I am reunited with the earth. I find no value in everlasting life. I want to make the most of my time alive and that means not spending it worshiping something/someone.

I'm super stoked for someone to make a triple recessive! It would be magic. I'm only about 12 years away so catch me if you can friends! Lol.


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Originally Posted by Kaorte

It is very hard for someone to offend an Atheist ;) But extremely easy to offend those who subscribe to religion.

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I believe Dilbert best describes this phenomenon in the 6th frame of this comic.

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000...rip.sunday.gif


EDIT: Oh, and HI SKIPLODER!

DOUBLE EDIT: All he was saying was that atheists do not actively believe in the absence of gods, they simply don't 'subscribe' to it themselves. You know, because as people of science we believe anything is possible until it is disproven, which unfortunately the existence of 'god' has not been and will likely never be due to its definition.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

It was this part right? Let me break it down, just so I know I'm not crazy.

Christians believe there is a higher power.

Atheists believe there is not a higher power.

Just to be clear, I am a super atheist. I'm not disagreeing with you. Just trying to understand why the difference between those two comments is bothering you so much? I don't even think that is what I said...

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Ok An Atheist does not believe there is not a higher power. An atheist does not believe there is a higher power. They are different things. Not believing something does not mean you believe the opposite. If I flip a coin and ask you do you believe the coin is heads up and you say no that does not mean you believe the coin is tails up. So if you say "Do you believe in God?" I say no. If you then say "So you believe there is no God?" I would say no. I don't wouldn't believe either until you present evidence. So to put it another way not believing something does not mean you believe the opposite.

Okay I understand what you are getting at, but the way that you have worded it has completely confused me.

An Atheist does not believe there is not a higher power.

An Atheist does not believe there is a higher power.

The first is a double negative, which translates to: An Atheist does believe there is a higher power. Which is completely contradictory.


So should I instead say:

Christians believe a higher power exists.

Atheists believe no higher power exists.

Also, you can't say something like this:

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I don't wouldn't believe either until you present evidence.

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And expect me to understand what you mean.


I am really trying to understand your point, but I'm just not getting it. I didn't mean to misrepresent atheism, as I am one myself. It seems like we are just getting down to semantics now.

I was breaking it down into two parts, Those who believe in the existence of god and those who do not, for the sake of simplicity. Why are these not opposites?

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Ok An Atheist does not believe there is not a higher power. An atheist does not believe there is a higher power. They are different things. Not believing something does not mean you believe the opposite. If I flip a coin and ask you do you believe the coin is heads up and you say no that does not mean you believe the coin is tails up. So if you say "Do you believe in God?" I say no. If you then say "So you believe there is no God?" I would say no. I don't wouldn't believe either until you present evidence. So to put it another way not believing something does not mean you believe the opposite.

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an atheist by definition believes no higher power exists. period. i believe what you are attempting to describe is agnosticism.

an agnostic person doesn't believe there is a god, yet doesn't believe there isn't one either.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

I have always used the word "Ignorant" to mean "not having knowledge of" as opposed to being an insult. I am ignorant when it comes to speaking Spanish. I am ignorant with regard to "String Theory" and "Quantum Physics". While I am ignorant with regard to these things, that doesn't mean I am incapable of learning them. If I want to insult someone or I think they are incapable of learning, then that is different than "Ignorant". For that I reserve the word "Stupid". Just my $0.02

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Yes, I see where you are coming from. I misspoke when I said it could never not be offensive. However, even if you use this definition of ignorant, in this context it suggests that people who are Christians choose not to, or are incapable of, learning whatever the "right" thing is. This is totally fine if you are a person who believes Christians are misled or misinformed, but you have to see how they can take that as a personal offense--and religion is always a raw nerve. Something completely innocuous almost always becomes offensive when it comes to religion, which is why I tend to steer clear. It's damn near impossible not to offend.

Atheism is a position on belief and agnosticism is a position on knowledge. They are different things. A person can be an agnostic atheist.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

So should I instead say:

Christians believe a higher power exists.

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Not to be knit picky but there is a bit more to this.

Christians do not believe in "a" higher power. They believe in "their" higher power. This is the difference between saying leprechauns exist and "my" highly personalized leprechaun exists and all other leprechauns do not exist.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Okay I understand what you are getting at, but the way that you have worded it has completely confused me.

An Atheist does not believe there is not a higher power.

An Atheist does not believe there is a higher power.

The first is a double negative, which translates to: An Atheist does believe there is a higher power. Which is completely contradictory.

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"An Atheist does not believe there is not a higher power" is not a double negative. Its basic logic that I can't really break down further.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

So should I instead say:

Christians believe a higher power exists.

Atheists believe no higher power exists.

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You should say "Christians believe a higher power exists.

Atheists do not believe a higher power exists."

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Also, you can't say something like this:

And expect me to understand what you mean.

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That was a type I ment to say "I don't believe either until you present evidence."

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I am really trying to understand your point, but I'm just not getting it. I didn't mean to misrepresent atheism, as I am one myself. It seems like we are just getting down to semantics now.

I was breaking it down into two parts, Those who believe in the existence of god and those who do not, for the sake of simplicity. Why are these not opposites?

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Those are opposites. You are mixing up a single position on one claim with, a positions on two claims. "There is a god," is a claim that I don't believe. That makes me an atheist. A person who does believe is a theist. "There is no god," is another claim. I don't believe that either. There is no word for that because its an impossible claim to prove. You can't prove there are no gods in the universe. You haven't looked everywhere in the universe. Theists can't even agree on a definition for what a god would be.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

You can't prove there are no gods in the universe. You haven't looked everywhere in the universe. Theists can't even agree on a definition for what a god would be.

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Well, that is true that we can not prove somethings non existence, other then to say.....it does not exist. We definitely can not say if it exists or does not if no definition is placed.

I always figured a deity was something around the following. Consciousness without materiel form, life without birth or death, all powerful and all knowing. Which are all contradictions and/or negations of biological functions.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Atheism is a position on belief and agnosticism is a position on knowledge.

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Lol you cannot say that agnosticism is a position based on knowledge. You cannot "know" either way. We can BELIEVE in God or NOT BELIEVE in God (or any gods for that matter). You can't say "I know God doesn't exist" in the same way a believer can't say "I know God exists". There is information both for or against God. Therefor you must have an opinion or BELIEF.


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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

I always figured a deity was something around the following. Consciousness without materiel form, life without birth or death, all powerful and all knowing. Which are all contradictions and/or negations of biological functions.

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isn't life being here in the first place (spontaneous generation) a contradiction of biological function?

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Originally Posted by creepin

isn't life being here in the first place (spontaneous generation) a contradiction of biological function?

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How so?

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Originally Posted by interloc

Lol you cannot say that agnosticism is a position based on knowledge. You cannot "know" either way. We can BELIEVE in God or NOT BELIEVE in God (or any gods for that matter). You can't say "I know God doesn't exist" in the same way a believer can't say "I know God exists". There is information both for or against God. Therefor you must have an opinion or BELIEF.


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I can say that agnosticism is a position ON knowledge. That's what the word means. "a" means without and "gnostic" means knowledge. Without knowledge, just like a-theist means without god. I am an agnostic atheist. That means I don't know whether or not any gods exist and I don't believe any gods exist. What you can't do is say "I don't know" when I ask you what you believe. Do you understand. When someone says "Do you believe in God," the response "I don't know." Means you don't know what you believe which is stupid. No one asked you if you know God exists.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

How so?

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life only comes from other living things. it does not generate itself (from everything we've observed). we haven't been able to recreate "spontaneous" generation, yet it must have happened on its own randomly (if you believe a god didn't intervene). therefore, somewhere down the line, whether you believe in a god or not, something contradicted biological function.

i'm not arguing for or against god. i have my own beliefs. i just enjoy getting lost in the rabbit hole and thinking as deep as possible. plus i love a good debate :P

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill -- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill -- you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

"I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." - The Matrix, copyright Warner Brothers 1999-2012.

I'm thinking that the definitions of agnostic and atheist are a bit blurry in some cases.

To me an agnostic "I don't know that any gods exist"
To me a atheist "No gods exist"

Because that's what they believe, neither usually state it as facts. I could say that I believe a invisible unicorn exists, and you can't prove it doesn't exist. So I can believe in it all I like. If I start insisting that you have to put up decorations, call off events or work or start obeying my invisible unicorn's decrees regarding blue cupcakes being ILLEGAL and IMMORAL, then it starts infringing on that whole "Freedom of Religion" thing.

And I love debating the nuances and aspects of all of it. I have discussions I'd like to have with Christian believers, but most seem to wig out and fall back to "YOU HAVE NO FAITH" as soon as I try.

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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

A warm hug from here <('.')> XD. I wouldn't want you to freeze!


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Thanks! It was like 40 degrees as rainy/misting all day. Absolutely disgusting. Too bad some of the heat from this pointless debate couldnt warm up CT! :)

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Thanks! It was like 40 degrees as rainy/misting all day. Absolutely disgusting. Too bad some of the heat from this pointless debate couldnt warm up CT! :)

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Lol you always make me laugh XD


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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Thanks! It was like 40 degrees as rainy/misting all day. Absolutely disgusting. Too bad some of the heat from this pointless debate couldnt warm up CT! :)

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CT is a very sad place right now. :(

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

CT is a very sad place right now. :(

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Sad and on edge. I cant believe that the day after the incident someone had the audacity to call in a threat (im guessing bomb threat?) to the church in Newtown. I didnt hear if they caught the person or not.

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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

Lol you always make me laugh XD


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Its even worse in real life haha :D

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

CT is a very sad place right now. :(

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I know I saw all those RIP on facebook and all I could do is cry for all those families that lost a love one.


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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Sad and on edge. I cant believe that the day after the incident someone had the audacity to call in a threat (im guessing bomb threat?) to the church in Newtown. I didnt hear if they caught the person or not.

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I can't believe that someone would really do that :(. It makes me sad to think that people can have now sense of seriousness.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Its even worse in real life haha :D

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If I ever meet you in real life I'm going to put on my serious face and see if you can break it -____-



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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

I can't believe that someone would really do that :(. It makes me sad to think that people can have now sense of seriousness.

If I ever meet you in real life I'm going to put on my serious face and see if you can break it -____-

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Its really disgusting. I think the governor and state police are handling everything really well though.

Yea bc that would work. :rolleyes:
Why didnt any of draculas friends sit with him at lunch?

Skiploder...LOVE your Avitar ! My 1.0 spider is named "Fester" :P

[IMG]http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6d1d6480.jpg[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Its really disgusting. I think the governor and state police are handling everything really well though.

Yea bc that would work. :rolleyes:
Why didnt any of draculas friends sit with him at lunch?

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Because he was sleeping in his coffin


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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

Because he was sleeping in his coffin


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No, bc he's a pain in the neck!

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

No, bc he's a pain in the neck!

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I believe I :)


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Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

I believe I :)


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YOU GET IT BC DRACULA CHOMPS ON YO NECK LIKE OMNOMNOM!

Hahahaha.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

YOU GET IT BC DRACULA CHOMPS ON YO NECK LIKE OMNOMNOM!

Hahahaha.

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Lol yes I do


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Originally Posted by creepin

life only comes from other living things. it does not generate itself (from everything we've observed). we haven't been able to recreate "spontaneous" generation, yet it must have happened on its own randomly (if you believe a god didn't intervene). therefore, somewhere down the line, whether you believe in a god or not, something contradicted biological function.

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Right, spontaneous generation has been proven to not exist, at least in the context that was originally proposed.

Second law of thermodynamics would propose that the universe at least that non organic materiel always existed.

Now how we get from non organic to organic I would guess has something to do with the right ingredients. The theory or model of thought that I'd subscribed to is that inorganic materiel needs to meet certain outside variables (heat, humidity, air mixture, etc) and that overtime this turns inorganic into single celled organic life. My main evidence I'd use to support this is the second law of thermodynamics and the fact that all life is simply a construction of molecules, all of which are found outside organic life as well as in organic life. So yeah, I'd imagine that there is some combination or series of different combinations which allows life to begin to reproduce. An interesting read would be the information that we know of previous extinction events on earth and how life tried several times to flourish but was wiped out. A lot of the life that had existed had very different variables that they required to live such as the air mixture.

Again, this is mostly theory from an amateur biologist.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I'm thinking that the definitions of agnostic and atheist are a bit blurry in some cases.

To me an agnostic "I don't know that any gods exist"
To me a atheist "No gods exist"

Because that's what they believe, neither usually state it as facts. I could say that I believe a invisible unicorn exists, and you can't prove it doesn't exist. So I can believe in it all I like. If I start insisting that you have to put up decorations, call off events or work or start obeying my invisible unicorn's decrees regarding blue cupcakes being ILLEGAL and IMMORAL, then it starts infringing on that whole "Freedom of Religion" thing.

And I love debating the nuances and aspects of all of it. I have discussions I'd like to have with Christian believers, but most seem to wig out and fall back to "YOU HAVE NO FAITH" as soon as I try.

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Another thing too is that the burden of proof is on the person claiming something from which there is no empirical evidence. In and of itself the burden of proof does not disprove the existence of a deity but it does get it off the atheists shoulders of having to disprove a claim posited by a theist.

So like in your unicorn example. It is not up to me to disprove that your invisible unicorn exists, it is up to you to prove to me that it does exist.

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Originally Posted by interloc

The original ignorance comment was made toward believers saying we were ignorant. Not directed towards the atheists. That word would be stubborn or close minded.


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On the contrary, being an atheist means that at some point in life, the atheist either 1) was introduced to religious beliefes and made an educated choice not to believe or 2) stopped and looked at what they had been taught since birth and questioned it, turning to atheism when their questions couldn't be answered. By definition they would have an open mind, not a closed one.

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Originally Posted by interloc

At its simplest form its like this. On one hand if you believe, you will spend eternity in the best place you can think of with the best people and things you can think of, or I turn to worm food. It's a no brainer for me anyways.


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Just as ones sexual orientation is not a choice, neither is belief in a higher power. Do you wake up every day and chose to believe in god in the face of complete lack of evidence? I don't believe that you do, however I could be wrong. For me and for everyone that I have talked to on the subject, believeing is not a choice, it is just how one feels. You BELIEVE in god. In the same vein, you feel that your snakes are beautiful, while someone that doesn't like snakes would not. I think my snakes are beautiful and I do not believe that there is a god, a higher power or anything supernatural in this universe. This is not a choice, it is just how I feel after interpreting all available evidence. Either way, if there is a god and you arrival at some gate and meet a gatekeeper after you die, would that god not appreciate honest questioning while living a good life more than someone saying "I believe" everyday, simply because they don't want to accept the fact that they will become maggot food when they die and want there to be something more?

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Originally Posted by interloc

Lol you cannot say that agnosticism is a position based on knowledge. You cannot "know" either way. We can BELIEVE in God or NOT BELIEVE in God (or any gods for that matter). You can't say "I know God doesn't exist" in the same way a believer can't say "I know God exists". There is information both for or against God. Therefor you must have an opinion or BELIEF.


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Please, share with me the information that is "for god," as you put it.



All of that aside, if a christian can make a post that celebrates what they BELIEVE, then I am free to make a post celebrating what I believe. I didn't say not to post anything like that, I didn't make any personal attacks, I just voiced my opinion. This is an open forum, I didn't disrespect anyone, I stated what I feel that religion is, and given that I was a believer for the first 20 some-odd years of my life I think that I am qualified to say what it is to me (i.e. my own opinion). If you don't agree with me, then feel free to let me know, but personal attacks? Nice. I'll let the family and friends of the 5 men that we lost know that you don't think that their loved ones are rotting in the ground. Also, if you can find one sentence where I ever proclaimed myself to be a war hero I will give you every penny that I make for the rest of my life.

Happy holidays everyone, whether the ones that you celebrate be religious or secular in nature. I hope that you all have the opportunity to be with family, friends and loved ones and that all that you wish to happen to/for you happens!

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml



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It's a long read but its worth it.


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Originally Posted by interloc

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml



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You see, the bible is not proof in my mind. It is just a book. ;) so you will never be able to convince me with that logic!

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Simply becuase this isn't the place and I don't care to have this discussion with someone who I have never met nor will ever meet, I won't make a list of everything that the website that your link claimed and then one by one explain why they aren't "proof" at all, but I challenge you, if you want to have stronger faith in your religion (though I believe that if your faith is derived from the bible that you will end up with less strength in your faith), to examine all of the proofs yourself and see what evidence there actually is for them. The writing on that website runs completely off of assumptions and no actual evidence.

Can you prove that Mary was a virgin? Only two gospels make that claim. Did Jesus perform any miracles? I first challenge you to find proof of he actaully existed. WHat did the bible prophesy that has come true? If the arrival of the Messiah is your best example then you're hurting, becuase the bible was written by men with agendas, even if they had the best of intentions when writing what they wrote. Why wouldn't they shade their new writings (new testament) to agree with the old ones? Simply the place of the birth of Jesus and the time and supporting evidence conflict horribly! christianity has pagan DNA, that is a fact, plain and simple, since the writers of the book wanted to make it easier for pagans to make the switch. To believe anything from your website you first have to believe the bible as fact, and this is the same book that says to stone homosexuals to death as well as women who cheat on their husbands. I really could cite multiple references and go on and on, however I would rather not. If you believe then that is up to you, however I don't.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Simply becuase this isn't the place and I don't care to have this discussion with someone who I have never met nor will ever meet, I won't make a list of everything that the website that your link claimed and then one by one exmplain why they aren't "proof" at all, but I challenge you, if you want to have stronger faith in your religion (though I believe that if your faith is derived from the bible that you will end up with less strength in your faith), to examine all of the proofs yourself and see what evidence there actually is for them. The writing on that website runs completely off of assumptions and no actual evidence.

Can you prove that Mary was a virgin? Only two gospels make that claim. Did Jesus perform any miracles? I first challenge you to find proof of he actaully existed. WHat did the bible prophesy that has come true? If the arrival of the Messiah is your best example then you're hurting, becuase the bible was written by men with agendas, even if they had the best of intentions when writing what they wrote. christianity has pagan DNA, that is a fact, plain and simple. To believe anything from your website you first have to believe the bible as fact, and this is the same book that says to stone homosexuals to death as well as women who cheat on their busbands. I really could cite multiple references and go on and on, however I would rather not. If you believe then that is up to you, however I don't.

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I will admit openly that I'm not the best educated person at proving stuff in the bible. There are many concepts that you need to learn about that will help explain things like the stonings and goat sacrifices. I know people who have went to school and studied this stuff and they are much better people to talk to than I am. I apologize that I can't be of more help. I know what I know and you know what you know. I wish I could defend myself but I don't have the ammo to do so.


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Originally Posted by interloc

I will admit openly that I'm not the best educated person at proving stuff in the bible. There are many concepts that you need to learn about that will help explain things like the stonings and goat sacrifices. I know people who have went to school and studied this stuff and they are much better people to talk to than I am. I apologize that I can't be of more help. I know what I know and you know what you know. I wish I could defend myself but I don't have the ammo to do so.


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The fact that you know that you can't defend your beliefs gives me hope for you. ;) In all seriousness and with the utmost sincerity I challenge you to DO the research into what others have been able to show. Look at evidence both for and against, but beware of religious scholars, as there are many that would argue as to whether or not theology is an actual field. After all, what do they have to go off of? They have the convenience of not being able analyze evidence let alone being able to conduct an experiment to gather evidence. They simply get to say that this is what has been passed down and that this is what someone else has experienced (the human sensory organs are very good at filling in gaps when not enough data is present to construct a clear picture), which is far from a good source. If you do it, please do so with an open of a mind as is possible. Happy researching!

i'm surprised this thread hasn't been quarantined yet. lol but since it hasn't and i have nothing better to do while i'm sitting at work, and nobody really seems to be on interlocs side, i'll voice my opinion on the matter as well. lol

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Originally Posted by interloc

The original ignorance comment was made toward believers saying we were ignorant. Not directed towards the atheists. That word would be stubborn or close minded.


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Originally Posted by gsarchie

On the contrary, being an atheist means that at some point in life, the atheist either 1) was introduced to religious beliefes and made an educated choice not to believe or 2) stopped and looked at what they had been taught since birth and questioned it, turning to atheism when their questions couldn't be answered. By definition they would have an open mind, not a closed one.

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i believe what interloc meant was if a believer called an atheist ignorant, the believer would be called stubborn or closed minded. outspoken atheists often call believers closed minded. this doesn't make much sense to me, as i feel like believing in something you can't touch or see, and not just in what is in front of your face, about as open minded as you can get. but viewing someone as "closed minded" is subjective to each individual.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Please, share with me the information that is "for god," as you put it.

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and then..

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Simply becuase this isn't the place and I don't care to have this discussion with someone who I have never met nor will ever meet, I won't make a list of everything that the website that your link claimed and then one by one explain why they aren't "proof" at all

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you ask for his/her "proof" but then refuse to provide any of your own. shame on you. :colbert:

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

All of that aside, if a christian can make a post that celebrates what they BELIEVE, then I am free to make a post celebrating what I believe.

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a christian never posted anything celebrating what they believe. the OP even stated she was not a religious person.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

This is an open forum, I didn't disrespect anyone, I stated what I feel that religion is

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"on the contrary," (;)) i would say that calling a group of people "proudly ignorant" would indeed be disrespectful. if that is what you believe, that's your right. just because you truly believe that does not make it any less offensive or disrespectful. if i believe a person is overweight, i'm not going to call them fat. i'm going to keep my mouth shut.. but that's just how my momma raised me. to have manners. from reading your previous posts, you seem articulate and educated enough, so don't pretend you have no idea why someone would get offended when called ignorant.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

but I challenge you, if you want to have stronger faith in your religion (though I believe that if your faith is derived from the bible that you will end up with less strength in your faith), to examine all of the proofs yourself and see what evidence there actually is for them. The writing on that website runs completely off of assumptions and no actual evidence.

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the very theory as to the origins of life (i.e. spontaneous generation or [insert any other theory here]) run completely off assumptions and no actual evidence. when i was at a time in my life where i didn't know what to believe, i spent countless hours researching both sides to the God debate. reading both sides, lurking in both atheist and christian forums alike. reading of contradictions in the bible. archeological evidence both for and against jesus of nazareth. theories of the origin of life. the hole 9 yards. the conclusion i came to was that you're going to believe what you WANT to believe. if you get online searching for evidence against god, you will find just that. if you search for evidence to increase your faith, you will find that as well. it all comes down to what you want to believe. there hasn't been a single archeological find that can destroy christianity, nor one that can destroy atheism. i find this very intriguing. ( Matthew 11:25- At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to those of childlike faith.")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Can you prove that Mary was a virgin? Only two gospels make that claim. Did Jesus perform any miracles? I first challenge you to find proof of he actaully existed.

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can you prove life spontaneously generated? no, but that is what you believe. if you don't believe in a god, you have no choice but to believe that. yet with all the technology we have today (we have google in our pockets and a large hadron collider that can fling atoms to near the speed of light), we have not been able to recreate the beginning of life.. and we're actually TRYING. to believe we weren't created by a higher power is to believe that this could have happened randomly, with no outside intervention, and i believe that to be just as much a leap of faith as believing in a creator.

as for proving jesus actually existed, i think you will have a hard time proving a lot of people that lived 2,000 years ago actually existed. writings of alexander the great and napoleon lead people to accept their existence as fact, even though they are scarce. if there was a secular book as detailed as the bible on any other person in history, their existence would not be questioned even for a moment. the only reason people discredit the bible is because they don't want to believe it. as i said earlier, you can research until you're blue in the face, but what it really comes down to is what you want to believe.

I really could cite multiple references and go on and on, however I would rather not. If you don't believe then that is up to you, however, I do.

this post may get me some heat, but you wanted to know why we believe. i can't speak for all believers, and this is just the tip of my iceberg, but this is part of the reason i chose to have faith. maybe if the day comes when we figure out how inorganic objects randomly arranged themselves in the correct order to come to life, i might reconsider, but until then, i'll back up what i believe and why, just as you do. :)

don't know what went wrong with the font up there. ^^ tried to edit it so it wasn't so tiny and difficult to read, but it wouldn't let me because 10 minutes had already passed.

Text looks fine to me so no worries there. I wanted to know some of what was claimed to be evidence, and what I got was asking me to take a huge leap of faith to consider it evidence. I did not want to get into a discussion here, which is why I said what I said. I won't even do it in a pm because I've got better things to spend my time doing. Also, there is in fact quite a good bit of empirical evidence to support all scientific theory, otherwise it wouldn't survive as such and would be disregarded by the scientific community. I don't believe that this applies to me, but you said that we will what we wish or decide to see no matter what evidence we are presented with. That may be the case with you and of so explains to me why you feel the way that you do. I interpret evidence and then make my assumptions, which is why I believe what I do.

Talk about a hijacked thread, huh? LOL

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

I interpret evidence and then make my assumptions, which is why I believe what I do.

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X2 :)

and yeah. good thing this thread is in the off-topic cafe. lol