price dropping

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I keep hearing people saying that guys that spend so much on an animal got screwed cause they are worth a fraction of the value now. So let me respond from experience as one of those guys. I bought my very first spider in like 2003 for close to 20k from rob at spiderballs.net. that spider was 500 grams. By breeding season i got him up to 850 grams. I bred to 5 females. 3 out of the 5 took. Out of those 3 i got 6.4 spiders. I sold all the males for 15k each and the girls for 18k each. You do the math. Enough said. Look what people have to understand coming into the hobby where combo and triple morphs are common place is that we didnt use to have it like that. The spider when it came out to the public was the big killer morph. This was a time when the holt grail white snake hadnt been produced yet and pieds were over 10k and we didnt have nearly what you see now. We all knew spiders were a single codom morph and knew it would soon start dropping. The key with any animal is get in at the infancy and milk it for all its worth. As soon as everyone gets their hands on an animal the prices drop. It just is what it is. No one should be surprised how quick the spiders dropped. Thos of us working with them at the time knew they would and if you look at todays trends the same is happening on alot of animals. Look at mojaves, caramels, pieds, albinos etc. All dropping. Look at combos like lemon blasts, bumble bees, sterlings etc. All dropping. It doesnt matter what ya do or what ya like they will always drop as long as their is more supply then demand.

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thats just depressing... what i take from this statement is that unless you got 5-10K to drop on a single animal,,,,, your never gonna get ahead... depressing...
spooky

Honestly, having the aspirations of some day buying another snake to make a breeding pair is very dear to me. I want to experience the excitement. But, I wouldn't begin to try an infringe on anyone else and their "market". I'd be moving what I made and didn't keep on CL or through my local reptile shop.

To be frank, do you think a first time breeder in two or three years could compete with Mike Wilbanks? Frankly, no. And I choose not to try.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

thats just depressing... what i take from this statement is that unless you got 5-10K to drop on a single animal,,,,, your never gonna get ahead... depressing...
spooky

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That really wasnt the point i was trying to make. But i mean thats about the jist of it. If you want to be in the front of a project or a new morph your gonna have to invest in that. But its an investment. If you spend the money to get in at the beginning of a big project you will make alot of money on that project and be in a good position of carrying that project to bigger and better combos

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Originally Posted by snake lab

That really wasnt the point i was trying to make. But i mean thats about the jist of it. If you want to be in the front of a project or a new morph your gonna have to invest in that. But its an investment. If you spend the money to get in at the beginning of a big project you will make alot of money on that project and be in a good position of carrying that project to bigger and better combos

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yea,, i understand what your saying,, and i guess that takes me back to the reason for my origional rant... theres no room for a middle ground. the "big boys" are in a place of their own, and know how to do business,, and whats left gets bastardized by people thats willing to take less than average just to make a quick buck.. its odvious where the true business people are... frankly, i wish that there were more true business people.
spooky

BTW,,, your last post is good advice and i respect that... def. something thats note worthy:bow:
spooky

It would be alot harder to get into cutting edge projects in todays industry cause the big guys have stuff they arent about to show just yet. Case in point when pro exotics had their fire i remember them saying they lost alot of one of kind animals and i cant even imagine what those were. My advice for anyone would be to work with the animals you yourself likes and worry bout the money second. Hey one of my favorite all time animals is the bumblebee. I love that animal. I always breed them and i dont care if they only sell for 20 bucks. I think they are cool. But i still have alot of overhead to account for over the year so i have to also breed animals i can sell for good money. The problem we are gonna have soon is that we are going to have so many genes stacked in an animal we wont know what the hell is in the offspring or how to reproduce it. Its gonna be like workin with poss hets on everything lol

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

thats just depressing... what i take from this statement is that unless you got 5-10K to drop on a single animal,,,,, your never gonna get ahead... depressing...
spooky

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To be honest, if your starting a business and are really humming to kick butt 5-10k is a small price to pay, and could even be considered cheap. Most folks are not in this to get ahead anyway. In fact even people who turn a profit every year breeding snakes do so because they love doing it. If your wanting to really get into snake breeding you have to have a plan, there is so much more too it than most think! Gotta remember the six p's, proper planning prevents piss poor performance.

slacking off somewhere using tapatalk

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Originally Posted by stangs13

To be honest, if your starting a business and are really humming to kick butt 5-10k is a small price to pay, and could even be considered cheap. Most folks are not in this to get ahead anyway. In fact even people who turn a profit every year breeding snakes do so because they love doing it. If your wanting to really get into snake breeding you have to have a plan, there is so much more too it than most think! Gotta remember the six p's, proper planning prevents piss poor performance.

slacking off somewhere using tapatalk

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i agree. if your starting a business, 5-10k is nothing. im in the higher end of that number just as a collector.. if someones wanting to start a business, and get a little ahead of the game, id guess about 50k (just in animals) would be a good start.
spooky

The snake buisness is one of the rare buisnesses cause yo can turn a very hood profit in the first year unlike most buisnesses one can start.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

i agree. if your starting a business, 5-10k is nothing. im in the higher end of that number just as a collector.. if someones wanting to start a business, and get a little ahead of the game, id guess about 50k (just in animals) would be a good start.
spooky

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Yeah I would think 50K would be about the right amount of seed money, especially of buying up Bananas, Toffinos, Multi-gene and the like to be on the forefront.

Most of you guys have never tried to sell high end Ball Pythons I have Ive gotton my price sometimes but most of the time not, they are only worth what somebody is willing to pay period if the money seems fair I will sell If not the stay in my rack or I make trades with other breeders. It is what it is I see people sell poor sad looking animals for top dollar & then get low balled on real nice stuff that I have thats what agravates me.

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Originally Posted by greghall

Most of you guys have never tried to sell high end Ball Pythons I have Ive gotton my price sometimes but most of the time not, they are only worth what somebody is willing to pay period if the money seems fair I will sell If not the stay in my rack or I make trades with other breeders. It is what it is I see people sell poor sad looking animals for top dollar & then get low balled on real nice stuff that I have thats what agravates me.

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How it is, They low ball you on yours cause the other guy who cant sell his low quality of same morph, drops his price. Then others come to you saying well i can get same snake for so and so much cheaper. And when you come back and say no thanks, They get pissed and say your a ripoff and your not gonna sell for that.

Happened a lot this year to me on just base morphs in the 100-800$ range. If you cant afford the snake, what makes me feel as if you can afford its care.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

How it is, They low ball you on yours cause the other guy who cant sell his low quality of same morph, drops his price. Then others come to you saying well i can get same snake for so and so much cheaper. And when you come back and say no thanks, They get pissed and say your a ripoff and your not gonna sell for that.

Happened a lot this year to me on just base morphs in the 100-800$ range. If you cant afford the snake, what makes me feel as if you can afford its care.

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I know plenty of people that love and care for their Normal BP's more then some others do for Mid Level Mutations.
I do not agree that because someone can not afford an expensive animal, they would not love and care for it as well as, or even better then someone that can drop the cash without batting an eye.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

I know plenty of people that love and care for their Normal BP's more then some others do for Mid Level Mutations.
I do not agree that because someone can not afford an expensive animal, they would not love and care for it as well as, or even better then someone that can drop the cash without batting an eye.

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Vet bills are very costly with exotics, If a snakes price is too much for one to endure paying for it, to go to the lengths of low ball, what makes you think they are able to properly care for it, and ensure it stays healthy or needs vet care. Are they going to haggle the vet too.

Honestly..........................









Pointless thread.

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Originally Posted by hurricaNe

Honestly..........................









Pointless thread.

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How is it pointless? It has more facts then most other threads out there. No one said you had to read it...

I have real high end nice well cared for animals I produced,& it pisses me off when they will go a few tables down & get a skinny smaller animal from a flipper & then come back & say look what I got for $$$ man that really gets me, but glad my stuff didnt go with those kind of people! rather deal with basement breeders & mid level guys all day because they know what thety want & are willing to pay or trade for what its worth!

Still got most of my high end stuff keeping it rather than give it away,double triple gene animals,anything over $300 has been a hard sell for me I guess because I dont have a huge name & just a basement hobbiest.trades have been good from my fellow basement breeders;)

Gregg. You said the most important comment so far. They are only worth what someone is willing to pay. I have seen this industry go from the basement to the mainsyream and its always the same thing. A morph comes out, it gets mass priduced and the prices drop. It shouldnt be any shock. Supply and demand. And to comment on richs point on care. He is totally right. If you are haggling over a 100 dollar snake that is poor quality there is no way your gonna afford the vet bills. 75 to 125 bucks just to walk in the door. A visit for resp can go through the roof.

Maybe I'm taking it for granted but I presume all sellers build in a negotiating buffer into their price. A lot of people do not want to pay the asking price and will haggle. Most people will not pay above the going rate but that's ok. The target market for a superior snake is an experienced hobbyist or breeder that's looking for quality, not the average guy.

As an example - does the price of quality dogs go down because of the backyard breeders selling their puppies way below market value? Nope. People that know seek out quality bloodlines. It should work similarly for morphs.

I'm not an expert. I'm just thinking out loud. :)

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Gregg. You said the most important comment so far. They are only worth what someone is willing to pay. I have seen this industry go from the basement to the mainsyream and its always the same thing. A morph comes out, it gets mass priduced and the prices drop. It shouldnt be any shock. Supply and demand. And to comment on richs point on care. He is totally right. If you are haggling over a 100 dollar snake that is poor quality there is no way your gonna afford the vet bills. 75 to 125 bucks just to walk in the door. A visit for resp can go through the roof.

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Shenanigans... If the reason breeders insist on keeping prices high is to ensure that the animals are given proper care, and not at all about the money, I have to ask why they give their Normals and Base Morphs away so cheaply, or even for free.

What makes them think those animals will be maintained and cared for any better then a High End animal that was given away or sold cheaply?
It seems the opposite would be true.

Just because someone can afford to drop big money on an "investment" animal, does not mean that they will care for, and provide a better home to that animal, then a hobby keeper would, if it were given to them as a free pet.

One can argue many reasons for high prices, but that one is pure B.S.

Yeah, I do not think most haggle because they cannot afford the full price or for care, they just want a better deal. If someone puts prices firm in the ad or it is a especially rare or fine example, I will not haggle.

Otherwise, I assume there is room to negotiate, and there usually is.

I even see a lot of ads nowadays that even say "negotiable" or "OBRO."

With that said, if I do pay less than advertised or less than market, I keep that to myself.

IVe been haggled on many cheap snakes, I even sold normals and the people wanted cheaper prices.

It says a lot to me when someone comes at me wanting to low ball me few hundred off my price.


It may be pure BS to you, but im not talking about just high priced snakes here. When i list a pastel for $60 and get hundreds of offers asking if ill take $20. Come on now, You want me to believe their trying to get a better deal, or just wanting a snake to toss in a huge tank at home that will end up needing vet care, they more than likely not afford.

Those saying its BS, if 3 or 4 of your snakes got RI over night, do you have the money to take them in right away and pay in full.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Those saying its BS, if 3 or 4 of your snakes got RI over night, do you have the money to take them in right away and pay in full.

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Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by zeion97

How is it pointless? It has more facts then most other threads out there. No one said you had to read it...

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It isn't necessarily pointless. No one has to read it. It's just a topic that regularly pops up. I've been guilty of it as well.

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Originally Posted by JohnNJ

Maybe I'm taking it for granted but I presume all sellers build in a negotiating buffer into their price. A lot of people do not want to pay the asking price and will haggle. Most people will not pay above the going rate but that's ok. The target market for a superior snake is an experienced hobbyist or breeder that's looking for quality, not the average guy.

As an example - does the price of quality dogs go down because of the backyard breeders selling their puppies way below market value? Nope. People that know seek out quality bloodlines. It should work similarly for morphs.

I'm not an expert. I'm just thinking out loud. :)

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Basically they want them for almost nothing,I was selling $100 200g base morphs & they would still go to the flippers & buy. I wholesaled alot of males because it was aggravating me,most people who buy high BPs are breeders not just the normal public,I had a $2500 Firebee on my table the best looking BP at the whole show & I think two people knew what it was lol!!! Also I think the smaller you are the harder it is to sell high end,sure the big guys will buy your stuff & then resell it top dollar!!! I know trust me;)

I am in this for fun, and aside from getting the chance to meet and talk to other keepers around the Country, and some local keepers I was not aware of, I do not enjoy the sales part of the hobby much at all.

Example:
I breed a Lesser Pastel x Cinnamon.
All of the double mutation females are held back, and the triple mutation male if I am fortunate enough to produce it.

Any single or double mutation males, as well as any single gene females, that are not needed in my own collection, are offered for sale/trade at the current "market value" OBRO, with trades preferred.
If there is no interest shown, I gradually lower my asking price, and will go to whatever price I am willing to let that particular animal out of my own collection for.
Oftentimes, I will reduce the price on my own if the other party does not haggle.

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Originally Posted by greghall

Basically they want them for almost nothing...

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No poop , Sherlock! :P

I was interested in a CL item and asked the seller how much they wanted for it. Their reply was how much do you want to pay. I said NOTHING!!!

It's a good deal if it's a good deal for everyone involved. If not, walk away.

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Originally Posted by JohnNJ

No poop , Sherlock! :P

I was interested in a CL item and asked the seller how much they wanted for it. Their reply was how much do you want to pay. I said NOTHING!!!

It's a good deal if it's a good deal for everyone involved. If not, walk away.

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I have all my prices marked on displays if somebody is interested you know it.if somebody told you that well that was ignorant.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

its good money to me too.... i was just making a coment on how fast the value of these morphs drops.... that makes me wander why they are priced so high in the beginning,,, are they really worth the high price when we all know that in 2 years there gonna be worth half the price.
just some random thoughts
spooky

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I think this is an interesting point. I am thinking about getting in to breeding I am glad I didn't impulse buy the firsy anaxthic I had seen it being priced at the time for $1000 ish now the same dealer is offering anaxthic hatchlings for 450 for a female.

They're worth as much as buyers will pay for them. When there's only 1, it's worth a lot. Once everyone has one, nobody is desperate for them and the price drops. Supply and demand people.

For those getting into the breeding game its great to aim high but the reality is unless you have a truckload of money to get into cutting edge mutations your best bet is to do lower end stuff. Heres why. 1 you will always be able to sell them cause theres a bigger market for lower end, 2 higher end animals are harder to get your money out of them until your established. Yes you can get more money out of a high end snake but its gonna cost you alot nore to produce and youll have to find the right buyer. The easiest snakes to move are snakes in the 100 to 500 dollar range. You can move em all day long. With more and more beginners or hobbyist getting into snakes every day they always start off with the basic morphs. Single codoms will always sell. They may go down in price but will always sell. You will sell 10 snakes at 200 bucks a piece faster then you will sell a 2000 dollar snake if you dont have a name behind you. Look on kingsnake and watch what sells. I bet youll see the snakes going for 2k sitting a while

So on this matter of price dropping, do you believe we will be seeing other single co-dom/ dom's drop in price to all be around the same in say another 5 years?

Will pastels, cinnamon, mojave, lesser, butter, spiders, enchi, and mystics, etc. all be priced between 100-400$ depending on sex and quality?

I noticed that mystics are still the highest price on the list I have above. But they were also discovered 5 years after most of the others.

Yes i think they will all be in that range. They pretty much are now. I think youll see alot of double morphs like bees and stuff like that down there too. But as they do more people will be able to afford them better so they will still sell quick. I have no problems selling 100 pastels. I van sell em as quick as i produce em.

Yea, as a purchaser of pets I certainly would like to see the prices of certain morphs come down.

I know its not as great on the breeders, but it will happen one day! I can't wait until BEL's and Mystic Potions etc. are within my price range.

Considering theres a number of ways to produce the lucy im sure prices will fall on them plus its pretty much a dead end morph. Once you get the white snake theres not much more you can do to it

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Considering theres a number of ways to produce the lucy im sure prices will fall on them plus its pretty much a dead end morph. Once you get the white snake theres not much more you can do to it

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I agree and disagree with that. If the BEL has Phantom/Mystic (Karma Ball), then it is not dead end with the Potion potential. Also, any BEL makes a pretty powerful breeder, as does any super.

Plus there is one more step beyond BEL. CHERRY BOMB.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

i just need to rant here...
i HATE it when i see someone selling a snake, or snakes for 2-3 hundred dollars less than what the "going rate" is.
yea,,, a few people get a few good deals,, and yea, the seller gets a little cash quicker,,,, but by doing this, it bottoms out the true value of a particular snake. before you know it, 2011 pieds are going for 4-5 hundred dollars,,, oh wait..............................................:rage:
spooky

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I put my spiders up on craigslist for 80-100 because I'm unemployed and not sure where next month's rent is coming from. I'm stocked up on rats and snakes, but not sure how or where to start selling them and need money yesterday.

Zombie thread alert!

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

i just need to rant here...
i HATE it when i see someone selling a snake, or snakes for 2-3 hundred dollars less than what the "going rate" is.
yea,,, a few people get a few good deals,, and yea, the seller gets a little cash quicker,,,, but by doing this, it bottoms out the true value of a particular snake. before you know it, 2011 pieds are going for 4-5 hundred dollars,,, oh wait..............................................:rage:
spooky

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There is no "true value", period.
Only what people are willing to pay.
If you get into it as more of an investment than an actual enjoyment of the animals, well it sucks to be you.
Also, if you pay 20k for an animal that is being mass produced then you have no one to blame when the market drops but yourself for not researching your "investment" thoroughly.
If you want value that stays consistent, look to multi-gene animals.

Edit: Ugh, year old dead rant. Nevermind, I was never here.