If it's ok to...

I dont have all day to read a book on here, i respond to the short and sweet posts. Granted the wordy people make good points, i would rather not write a novel trying to reply.

Im not pushing buttons by trying to be clever. How come if people acknowledge a good point they always label you as a troll on the internet?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Extremes can be BAD for the animal.

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And so my question is. If people know that extremes can occur out of no where, why breed them at all.

DOUBLE STANDARD much?

We breed spiders for our own personal reasons. I have two females, my oldest had a spin when I checked her at the show, I have never seen it since. My smallest I haven't noticed any yet. I realize they all have it, but we all can't be perfect.

I think a slight wobbler is worth the beautiful combos they make. From my understanding, they don't pass the wobble into the combos. Right?

You haven't told us your views on the subject yet. Do you think it's 'ethical' to breed spiders?

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

You haven't told us your views on the subject yet. Do you think it's 'ethical' to breed spiders?

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I posted this thread to help me form a REAL opinion for myself, not to call people out on their own.

Turns out all i get for trying to think outside the box is a bunch of bashing and misunderstandings. I post one thing and people go on the defense, perhaps because they see an issue with a custom that until now has not been looked at from a certain angle.

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Originally Posted by TheReptileEnthusiast

Purebred dogs can have a lot of health problems.

•Crippling bone and joint disorders
•Eye diseases that cause reduced sight or total blindness
•Heart diseases that drastically shorten a dog's life
•Hormonal and endocrine system diseases like hypothyroidism and diabetes
•Seizure disorders such as epilepsy
•Skin diseases that cause frantic itching
•Digestive disorders that cause chronic diarrhea and vomiting
•Kidney and liver diseases
•Blood-clotting diseases
•Cancer -- the number-one killer of many, many breeds

Over 300 genetic health problems occur in dogs -- all kinds of dogs, purebred, crossbred, and mixed -- but the risk of these health problems occurring in a purebred dog is higher than in a crossbreed or mixed breed.

Humans have been selectively breeding animals to produce certain traits or visual looks for millenia, in spite of the genetic probems that result from breeding closely related animals.

It is estimated that 50% of German shepards will develop hip displasia, but the breed has many redeeming qualities that make them useful to humans, and few would argue that German shepards don't enjoy thier lives. Spiders have a wobble, but they eat, breed, shed, and don't seem to suffer in any way.

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Well to tie this in to the original post....breeding a German Shepherd who is known to carry the gene for Hip Displaysia is considered unethical.

It is something that "back yard" breeders do all the time and one of the reasons you would be encouraged to buy only from a reputable breeder and not a puppy mill.

A reputable breeder will go a long way to make sure his stock doesnt carry the gene's for the defact, including having his dogs x-rayed and certified to not have the disease.

Also there is the question...how many of the genetic pure bred dog diseases were caused by breeders doing things they shouldnt have been doing, like inbreeding and breeding animals with known defects?

To be humane you have a responsibility to the animal. You would not want to intentionally pass along traits that in the end could harm the animals quality of life.

Not saying the wobble does this in a Spider. But if it did then it is equiv to hip displasia in dogs and would be unethical to breed an animal who had it.

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Originally Posted by mozbink

Also there is the question...how many of the genetic pure bred dog diseases were caused by breeders doing things they shouldnt have been doing, like inbreeding and breeding animals with known defects?

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A thread related post that provokes thought. :gj:

These are reptiles though, not mammals. I thought it was proven inbreeding with reptiles didn't carry the harsh effects as it does with mammals? Considering it has been done so many times. We should try and stray from comparing to mammals, there are just too many differences.

True that.

Also, is it the breeders responsibility to notify the buyer of the severity of the wobble in the animal they are selling?

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

I posted this thread to help me form a REAL opinion for myself, not to call people out on their own.

Turns out all i get for trying to think outside the box is a bunch of bashing and misunderstandings. I post one thing and people go on the defense, perhaps because they see an issue with a custom that until now has not been looked at from a certain angle.

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No one is bashing you. Goodness. People don't have a problem with your stance on the subject, they have a problem with how you're presenting it. Furthermore, to say you're trying to formulate an opinion on the matter (though it seems you had an unshakable opinion before you even asked your question), yet you're unwilling to read and respond to the most fleshed-out responses, makes no sense. If you care enough to continue arguing your case, than you should care enough to read people's responses. Otherwise, it seems there's no alternative than you're on here to 'troll.' Either take the time, or don't, and admit you don't care to really think about the other side of the argument. Either way, it's not fair to say people are bashing you simply for disagreeing with you, or pointing out the seemingly rough nature of your posts. I have not seen a single uncivil comment in this thread, and I think it's a copout to say people are bashing you.

Cheers,
-Matt

Anyone who questioned my intent with the post is "doing it wrong."

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

I dont have an agenda, but i did want to just point out an ethical question to people who breed spiders. I am kind of new to these morphs.

I mean, if a trainwreck wobble can come out of no where, and people admit that a wobble is unfavorable, why breed them in the first place? Its like having everyone board the titanic knowing that it will probably sink, just because you want to keep ticket profits.

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Again - those are YOUR personal ethics. If it's bothersome to YOU, then don't get spiders or any spider crosses. Those of us who aren't facing an ethical delimma will continue to breed and enjoy them.

That's what's so great about ball pythons - there's a morph for everyone!

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

then why have an issue with me breeding for the wobble quality if i enjoy it?

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Do you enjoy it?

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

My only experience is a natural critical thinking mindset, i guess.
As a first generation immigrant, we were always taught to question someone intent when they are taking your money, thats all. :)

Edit:
Woah, btw, I didnt notice who posted that. I am new to ball pythons but I saw your vids online and I really like your animals and tips dude!

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However, if you have decided that a spider wobble bothers you enough to start this thread, then one would conclude that you won't buy one. So how would someone with spiders for sale be taking your money when you aren't going to be shopping for one anyway?

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

I posted this thread to help me form a REAL opinion for myself, not to call people out on their own.

Turns out all i get for trying to think outside the box is a bunch of bashing and misunderstandings. I post one thing and people go on the defense, perhaps because they see an issue with a custom that until now has not been looked at from a certain angle.

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But you'd be wrong - it's been looked at ad nauseum. This topic pops up all the time, and there's always someone who challenges the ethics of those who choose to work with spiders for all the reasons you've outlined.

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

I dont have all day to read a book on here, i respond to the short and sweet posts. Granted the wordy people make good points, i would rather not write a novel trying to reply.

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does not compute.

an now for more on topic posting... comparing the spider wobble to hip and elbow displacia in GSD's is not really the same thing. HD and ED negatively impact the quality of life of the animal, creating arthritis and sore joints and other problems that make it difficult for a dog (an active, people-pleasing creature) to do "its thing." Breeding for hip and elbow problems (or even not bothering to check for such issues before paring a male and female) are unacceptable to me. There is a very good reason that when I own a dog, be it a GSD, it will not be from American lines, and it will only be from someone who does all the proper testing (quality breeders folks, it doesn't matter the breed or species, quality counts).

Spiders, even those with a moderate (NOT severe/trainwreck) eat, breed, poop, sleep, and do everything that a normal bp without the wobble does.

I am planning to put spiders back into my collection, almost all of my favorite morphs are spider crosses. If i bred my animals and ended up with a trainwreck, I'd cull it. To me there is no sense in keeping an animal alive that is too wacked out to even eat on its own if it wants too. As a potential breeder, that is my choice to make, and it is a customers choice to not buy from me because i breed that morph.

What does cull mean?

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

What does cull mean?

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Euthenize immediatly once it is recognized that it has a defect or is already suffering, or will suffer due to said defect.

Cull means euthanize. If you breed ball pythons (or any other animal), you will at some point have to face this necessity. Animals may be born with deformities so severe that they cannot survive, or would have extremely poor quality of life even if they did. These animals have to be euthanized.

I think a trainwreck spider that cannot feed on its own is borderline--some people may be willing to nurse it along, while others choose to cull it.

The reason we breeders aren't all freaking out over the possibility of hatching a train wreck spider is because most of us who have been doing this for a few years have had to put down one or more hatchlings ALREADY, for various deformities. Not all hatchlings develop properly. Sometimes, things happen.

The risk with a spider clutch just doesn't seem significantly higher than with any other clutch. The 'train wreck' possibility is just one more thing among many that might go wrong, and it's a pretty low chance. Probably lower than other more typical deformities like eye and jaw malformation, severe kinking, and fusing.

I'm sorry our posts have exceeded your attention span, but I find it highly discourteous to ask a complex question, and then refuse to read complex answers.

I've never seen a spider without a wobble. I'm sure there could be some out there but from my own experience, they all have it. My bumblebee that I got a few months ago only does it when he goes to feed. Its almost like he gets all excited and starts shaking. He is very healthy and my best feeder by far!

I know there are some very serious cases of the wobble but then again, there are also retarted people born every now and again as well. Should we stop people from breeding too so we don't have to worry about another mentally challanged person born again? Come on, get real....

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

What does cull mean?

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Also see Charlottes Web. It is a story about a pig who was going to be culled, only to be given to the farmers neice who raised him up. Then he was going to become bacon when a....wait for it......wait for it....Spider saved his life.

I say this because it involved culling and a Spider.

Which is what we are talking about...right....Spiders?

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Originally Posted by ericzerka24

I've never seen a spider without a wobble. I'm sure there could be some out there but from my own experience, they all have it. My bumblebee that I got a few months ago only does it when he goes to feed. Its almost like he gets all excited and starts shaking. He is very healthy and my best feeder by far!

I know there are some very serious cases of the wobble but then again, there are also retarted people born every now and again as well. Should we stop people from breeding too so we don't have to worry about another mentally challanged person born again? Come on, get real....

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Well to be fair that is not an exact analogy. Now if you were to talk about stopping the mentally challenged person from reproducing then that would fit.

But if the said mentally challenged person looked like oh say Jessica Simpson then just put some corks on her forks and breed baby breed.....

Why use a word other than euthanize?
It wouldnt be to add ambiguity to the act, would it?
Which is why of course they used it in the kids novel...

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Originally Posted by mozbink

well to be fair that is not an exact analogy. Now if you were to talk about stopping the mentally challenged person from reproducing then that would fit.

But if the said mentally challenged person looked like oh say jessica simpson then just put some corks on her forks and breed baby breed.....

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lol!

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Why use a word other than euthanize?
It wouldnt be to add ambiguity to the act, would it?
Which is why of course they used it in the kids novel...

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The word 'cull' is used in the natural sciences, and is a more appropriate word to use in this case, as it carries with it connotations of removing an animal from a gene pool based on undesirable genetic traits or defects. Like euthanasia, culling almost always implies putting the animal down as a means of doing so. It doesn't add ambiguity at all, in fact, it gives us additional information.

Cheers,
-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mozbink

Well to be fair that is not an exact analogy. Now if you were to talk about stopping the mentally challenged person from reproducing then that would fit.

But if the said mentally challenged person looked like oh say Jessica Simpson then just put some corks on her forks and breed baby breed.....

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Exactly! lol

So... I'm new here and can't say I know a lot about breeding Ball Pythons, but I know about breeding ethics especially with dogs (German Shepherds in particular.)

While I may be biased, I think spiders are an amazing morph of ball python (I currently only own one BP and it is a spider.) I understand that spiders are notorious for having a wobble to some degree, I also understand that in the VAST majority of spiders, this wobble does not affect the quality of life in the animal in any way.

Now I'm not saying that it should just be overlooked, but I think that the spider morph is one that is important enough (to the creation of other morphs) and beautiful enough on its own to be valued by the BP community. I simply do not see the point in bashing those who choose to breed the morph to the point of demonizing these people.

German Shepherds were brought up in an earlier post as having hip displasia and then someone else remarked that the dogs with the 'hip displasia gene' were not bred. This is simply not true, not because there are irresponsible breeders breeding animals with hip displasia, but because they don't know exactly what causes it. While they try to place dogs together with healthy hips, it does not always result in puppies with healthy hips and vice versa.

Hip displasia would be much less common by now if they knew how to prevent it. HOWEVER, instead of giving up cold turkey on breeds with a high incidence of hip displasia (which is most large breeds) there are many breeders that for the love of their breed are working hard to make improvements. It is also a disease that has varying levels of severity, some dogs may have near perfect hips (I've yet to see PERFECT X-rays but I suppose it is subjective) while some dogs are so crippled by displasia that they can not walk.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that, instead of being so negative about the morph maybe try to appreciate the amazing things that have come out of it and be hopeful for its future. I imagine any responsible breeder is working towards breeding healthy spiders with as little 'wobble' as possible. This is something I can appreciate and I think other BP lovers should try to appreciate as well.

I respect the breeders that are trying to improve the spider morphs and I don't think they should feel guilty about working with them. The same applies to those that work with caramels and any other morph with known issues. But I do believe that those who do work with these morphs should hold a higher level of responsibility to ensure that they are doing what they can to produce healthy disease-free animals (or as close to as they can get.) And I hope that there are breeders that are passionate enough about these morphs and hopefully some day we will see wobble free spiders and kink free caramels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Why use a word other than euthanize?
It wouldnt be to add ambiguity to the act, would it?
Which is why of course they used it in the kids novel...

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Seriously? No wait......seriously??????????

No - culling adds more clarity. Now you're just being insulting.

Google really is your friend if you're unsure of a term being used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SK_Exotics

Why use a word other than euthanize?
It wouldnt be to add ambiguity to the act, would it?
Which is why of course they used it in the kids novel...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt K

The word 'cull' is used in the natural sciences, and is a more appropriate word to use in this case, as it carries with it connotations of removing an animal from a gene pool based on undesirable genetic traits or defects. Like euthanasia, culling almost always implies putting the animal down as a means of doing so. It doesn't add ambiguity at all, in fact, it gives us additional information.

Cheers,
-Matt

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thank you for the explanation, that is exactly the reason i didn't use the word euthanize. I used cull, because I meant cull. There are a lot of similar words with subtle differences, they're all important to the English language. I generally type out my replies very carefully to threads that are asking hard or legitimate questions. My replies are generally long. If i say a specific word, 99% of the time i mean that specific word.

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Originally Posted by sungmina

So... I'm new here and can't say I know a lot about breeding Ball Pythons, but I know about breeding ethics especially with dogs (German Shepherds in particular.)

While I may be biased, I think spiders are an amazing morph of ball python (I currently only own one BP and it is a spider.) I understand that spiders are notorious for having a wobble to some degree, I also understand that in the VAST majority of spiders, this wobble does not affect the quality of life in the animal in any way.

Now I'm not saying that it should just be overlooked, but I think that the spider morph is one that is important enough (to the creation of other morphs) and beautiful enough on its own to be valued by the BP community. I simply do not see the point in bashing those who choose to breed the morph to the point of demonizing these people.

German Shepherds were brought up in an earlier post as having hip displasia and then someone else remarked that the dogs with the 'hip displasia gene' were not bred. This is simply not true, not because there are irresponsible breeders breeding animals with hip displasia, but because they don't know exactly what causes it. While they try to place dogs together with healthy hips, it does not always result in puppies with healthy hips and vice versa.

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There may be an enviromental factor that coincides with a genetic pre-disposition that can agrevate the underlying genetic disease. There are two enviromental factors that have in the past been considered a contributor to causing the disease to progress. Overfeeding and allowing the use of stairs when the animals are still growing. The latter usually was only a factor in large breeds like Mastiffs.

All effort should be taken to avoid breeding animals who are known to have the issue since you cannot say for sure how much of it was caused by poor genetics and how much was caused by enviroment. Sometimes this cannot be avoided as dogs may not show the disease until after they have already had offspring. So in some sense it is not entirely avoidable. But one should try.

I do not have a problem with people breeding spyders. I accept the testimony of those who have when they say the snake does not suffer for it.

However....

Do we know that there are no long term, linked affects of snakes that have the wobble? Could some other disease manifest itself that would affect the snakes longevity? How long before we know the long term affects of this genetic defect? Can we make any definitive conclusions without studying the snakes for their entire life cycle?

Do we even know what the wobble is? Is it neurological? Is it a muscle defect? Combo of both?

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

From my understanding, they don't pass the wobble into the combos. Right?

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They do, I have a Spinner girl with a slight wobble.

Yes, all animals carrying the spider gene may wobble, including all combos.

They do not know, currently, what causes the spider wobble. Someone would have to get funding to do a research study on it, and that hasn't been done.

The two top probabilities are a neurological defect, and an inner ear defect. It could be either of those.

The spider's uncertainty as to which direction is up points to an inner ear defect. The spider's general uncoordination might point also to a neurological problem with locomotion.

Spiders do seem to be able to get where they want to go, but they can miss when striking at prey, and they are comfortable in positions ordinary snakes wouldn't be found in more than briefly.

My personal bet is on an inner ear problem, because spiders don't show any sign that they have any other neurological problems, and they can slither around and climb.

Unlike waltzing mice, which wander in circles, spiders seem to be surprisingly comfortable corkscrewing their heads upside down to investigate the top of their cage, and then just staying that way... :)

Someone said that reptile genetics are different from mammalian genetics. I believe this is false. Genetic material is genetic material. It is all made of the same stuff and vulnerable to the same stuff that causes mutation. Mutations and genetic variety are how we got here from sponges and amoebas to ball pythons and humans, so even those creatures can suffer from such effects.

When line breeding anything, the chances of pairing two creatures who are het for anything increases. Even a very small gene pool can withstand inbreeding if the deformed beings can't breed. If every human who got cancer didn't live long enough to have children, cancer would not be nearly as big a concern as it is, considering it's heritability is a such a factor. I'm not saying the amount of wobble is, though, because it's apparent that it's not. I'm just pointing out how line breeding could be used for good.

tl;dr Mammal and reptile genes work the same. Line breeding is not always a bad thing if you cull (or just don't breed) the deformed offspring.

I don't think so. Read this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16000457

It's kind of hard to read, but my understanding is there is a big difference between mammals and reptiles genetically.

It would explain why they don't catch diseases as easily as we do, and there are far less things that can make a reptile sick. Hence, they don't need nasty immunity shots.

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Someone said that reptile genetics are different from mammalian genetics. I believe this is false. Genetic material is genetic material. It is all made of the same stuff and vulnerable to the same stuff that causes mutation. Mutations and genetic variety are how we got here from sponges and amoebas to ball pythons and humans, so even those creatures can suffer from such effects.

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The material is the same, it's not like they're running on a different system. However they have a lot less genes and as such arent as complex as humans/mammals. Thus line breeding will have a lower likelihood of making a deadly/crippling/etc trait present itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I don't think so. Read this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16000457

It's kind of hard to read, but my understanding is there is a big difference between mammals and reptiles genetically.

It would explain why they don't catch diseases as easily as we do, and there are far less things that can make a reptile sick. Hence, they don't need nasty immunity shots.

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It's talking about bacteria and how they developed differently between mammals and reptiles. That doesnt suggest that they have vastly different genetic design/composition. It simply means that reptile and mammal bacteria evolved down two different paths.

What we do have to support difference between them is that we line breed and it doesnt have much of a detrimental effect, pointing, potentially, to a narrower gene pool that doesnt have many genetic related diseases in it.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Seriously? No wait......seriously??????????

No - culling adds more clarity. Now you're just being insulting.

Google really is your friend if you're unsure of a term being used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling

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To cinder I extend a sincere appology, I did not mean to pick on you for using that word, as I already saw that it is a common word here on the forums.

And to rabernet, I am just sorry you took it the wrong way. But I just would like you to see it the way I was thinking at the time:

Culling would be to take an animal from the gene pool, and euthanasia would be to put an animal out of it's misery. So if the spiders do not inherit wobble, then you would actually be euthanizing and not culling!!! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sungmina

So... I'm new here and can't say I know a lot about breeding Ball Pythons, but I know about breeding ethics especially with dogs (German Shepherds in particular.)

While I may be biased, I think spiders are an amazing morph of ball python (I currently only own one BP and it is a spider.) I understand that spiders are notorious for having a wobble to some degree, I also understand that in the VAST majority of spiders, this wobble does not affect the quality of life in the animal in any way.

Now I'm not saying that it should just be overlooked, but I think that the spider morph is one that is important enough (to the creation of other morphs) and beautiful enough on its own to be valued by the BP community. I simply do not see the point in bashing those who choose to breed the morph to the point of demonizing these people.

German Shepherds were brought up in an earlier post as having hip displasia and then someone else remarked that the dogs with the 'hip displasia gene' were not bred. This is simply not true, not because there are irresponsible breeders breeding animals with hip displasia, but because they don't know exactly what causes it. While they try to place dogs together with healthy hips, it does not always result in puppies with healthy hips and vice versa.

Hip displasia would be much less common by now if they knew how to prevent it. HOWEVER, instead of giving up cold turkey on breeds with a high incidence of hip displasia (which is most large breeds) there are many breeders that for the love of their breed are working hard to make improvements. It is also a disease that has varying levels of severity, some dogs may have near perfect hips (I've yet to see PERFECT X-rays but I suppose it is subjective) while some dogs are so crippled by displasia that they can not walk.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that, instead of being so negative about the morph maybe try to appreciate the amazing things that have come out of it and be hopeful for its future. I imagine any responsible breeder is working towards breeding healthy spiders with as little 'wobble' as possible. This is something I can appreciate and I think other BP lovers should try to appreciate as well.

I respect the breeders that are trying to improve the spider morphs and I don't think they should feel guilty about working with them. The same applies to those that work with caramels and any other morph with known issues. But I do believe that those who do work with these morphs should hold a higher level of responsibility to ensure that they are doing what they can to produce healthy disease-free animals (or as close to as they can get.) And I hope that there are breeders that are passionate enough about these morphs and hopefully some day we will see wobble free spiders and kink free caramels.

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This is right in line with the research I have done on hip displasia. It can pop up from 2 parents who are considered low risk, just like spiders with low wobble can produce spiders with more wobble. Dogs with only mild hip problems can live happy lives, and even more severe cases can be treated, just as spiders with normal wobble go through life without any problems. That is why I made the comparison. That does not mean that we shouldn't do our best to use the best specimens for breeding. I hope I didn't offend any GSD lovers out there, I love GSD's and large breeds in general, and I love spiders and all thier combos.

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Originally Posted by mozbink

There may be an enviromental factor that coincides with a genetic pre-disposition that can agrevate the underlying genetic disease. There are two enviromental factors that have in the past been considered a contributor to causing the disease to progress. Overfeeding and allowing the use of stairs when the animals are still growing. The latter usually was only a factor in large breeds like Mastiffs.

All effort should be taken to avoid breeding animals who are known to have the issue since you cannot say for sure how much of it was caused by poor genetics and how much was caused by enviroment. Sometimes this cannot be avoided as dogs may not show the disease until after they have already had offspring. So in some sense it is not entirely avoidable. But one should try.

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It is true that there are environmental factors that can aggravate the condition and make it worse such as stair climbing, jumping, and running on hard surfaces. But the fact of the matter is, that many large breed dog owners know this, and take extra measures to protect their dog from debilitating illness. I KNOW my GSD has a good chance of developing displasia (to some degree), I was extremely careful about raising him so that he had the best chance of having displaysa-free hips/elbows. I made sure I purchased from German imports with good hip scores (although there are healthy American lines as well) and I carried him up and down stairs as a puppy. And he was not a small puppy to lug around!!

There have been national level dogs competing in Schutzhund or working as Police K9's that develop crippling displasia. These dogs are usually still bred but often only to dogs that have outstanding hips/elbows. I've come to realize that there is no 'perfect' dog. Sometimes they have great hips/elbows but can't function as anything other than a bed warmer and then sometimes there are dogs with great working ability (for military, sport, police) but they are displastic.

Breeders simply do not know what causes displasia and while they are working to improve it, there are still many puppies being born that end up with severe displasia at a young age. Despite this fact, there are many more puppies being born with healthy hips/elbows (or with displasia that is mild enough to never be noticed) and breeders work towards this.

What I mean to conclude by this comparison is that if we are willing to help our dog breeds that are prone to a debilitating disease, then why are we not willing to help a morph of ball python with a condition that is usually mild?

I think breeders should continue working with spiders but just be cautious and aware that they may have to work a little harder to make sure their snakes are as healthy as possible. And one day we may discover what exactly is causing the animal to 'wobble' and remove it from the morph entirely. But if we don't I see no problem in breeding spiders as long as they are healthy and 'happy'.