Touchy subject that i need some light shined on....

Here is my out look on it i kept 2 ball pythons together for a year and no problems and when breeding season came my ball was all over the other one.Snakes may benefit from seperate enclosures but it isn't as bad as people put it out to be in my opinion it is better for them each to have their own enclosure but it isn't gonna hurt them to be housed together unless it is 2 males.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

With my collection, I choose to spend the money, provide my snakes with the best possible care, based on years of experience of many ball python experts. I would never "experiment" to save myself money or expand my collection if I did not have the space to do so. My snakes are way too important to me, to sacrifice their possible well being , just to get more.
1 tub, 1 snake.

You can try to justify your shortcuts all day...I'd rather take the popular opinion.

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well ill start with im no expert keeper by any means, so most of you will not give a crap what i have to say anyways.

but you will not experiment? what if the first BP's were kept 5 to a burlap sack and no one experimented to find a better way? i mean isn't science and finding out whats best for these animals all about experimenting?

but I do support mike and what hes doing. I mean would you be ok with what hes doing if he had a huge room and had the space but said hey i wanna try something. and if he has negative effects he can report them and add to our knowledge, same if he has positive effects or no effects. Isn't this how we learn?

And just from things i've seen. I don't see how ball pythons try to dominate each other. I've had females together simply because heat went out on a rack. and when i opened the cage, they swapped who was on top and who was on bottom all the time. no one seemed to be domiate. they both ate and no problems until i got the heat taken care of.

also another thing I do that goes against everything on this forum is handle snakes after they eat. you guys say a few days... I'll give em half a day. I've never had a regurge and they don't act different or show any signs of being stressed besides moving slower, im pretty sure thats from the extra load, hell i move slower after i eat to.

but like i said most of you won't care what i have to say, ok experts continue debate

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

but you will not experiment? what if the first BP's were kept 5 to a burlap sack and no one experimented to find a better way? i mean isn't science and finding out whats best for these animals all about experimenting?

but I do support mike and what hes doing. I mean would you be ok with what hes doing if he had a huge room and had the space but said hey i wanna try something. and if he has negative effects he can report them and add to our knowledge, same if he has positive effects or no effects. Isn't this how we learn?

And just from things i've seen. I don't see how ball pythons try to dominate each other. I've had females together simply because heat went out on a rack. and when i opened the cage, they swapped who was on top and who was on bottom all the time. no one seemed to be domiate. they both ate and no problems until i got the heat taken care of.

also another thing I do that goes against everything on this forum is handle snakes after they eat. you guys say a few days... I'll give em half a day. I've never had a regurge and they don't act different or show any signs of being stressed besides moving slower, im pretty sure thats from the extra load, hell i move slower after i eat to.

but like i said most of you won't care what i have to say, ok experts continue debate

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#1 Mike is not the first person to have BP's in captivity. There is no need for further experiments about multiple housing, it has all been done before.
#2 You have 3 ball pythons (as per your sig) how can you make an assumption that they will OK living together. I do believe that the snake on top was the dominant one. By you stating that "they swapped" tells me that they were in a struggle for domination.
#3 Good luck letting them rest 1/2 a day after eating before handling. I'm sure that's gonna work out great in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

I know you must have seen pics of one snake eating another, and you are sure it won't happen to you... but.. what if you have the male in with the two females, and one eats the other? Or feels threatened and attacks?

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You know this reminds me of another important point. (I should make another post pointing out all of the points I have made in this discussion that nobody has addressed. :gj: )

Anyways, so here is the point. If keeping snakes together is so stressful and wrong... Snakes always trying to dominate one another, eat one another, generally unhappy being anywhere near one another... Then why is it that the GREAT majority of breeders keep hatchlings TOGETHER until after the first shed?

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Originally Posted by monk90222

I would never "experiment"

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LOL, wow, that is a surprise!

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Originally Posted by monk90222

#1 Mike is not the first person to have BP's in captivity. There is no need for further experiments about multiple housing, it has all been done before.

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Thankfully there are lots of people in this hobby who would and do disagree with you on this. The idea that you or anyone else has something figured out so completely that no further experimentation's or studies are needed appears to be quite ignorant. Especially when we are discussing a natural behavior that does in fact (for one reason or another) happen in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Field work and first hand accounts like Justins and others that have been to West Africa, captive observations, and experimentation all play a part in how we know.

As tempting as it may be to watch a couple of internet videos and justify keeping two ball pythons in an enclosure together ... that's not science

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Yes I did read Justins post and no I am not ignoring it. I was surprised by it though... thought he would have seen some instances where males and females were found together because that is after all how those cute little babies we all love happen.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Mike,

Just an FYI ... breeding is a seasonal thing for ball pythons ... during the breeding season males and females are together for a short period of the year to make all those "cute little babies" and then when breeding season ends they go their separate ways and want nothing to do with each other.
-adam

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

I was there from November 2000 to Aug 2001. Right through the entirety of the breeding cycle.

No I never saw more than one bp in a hole. That doesn't mean there never is. I wasn't digging for them during laying season either... I was there for other reasons...

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Sorry Adam, but for obvious reasons I think the video evidence of this occurring in the wild should not be so easily dismissed.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Then why is it that the GREAT majority of breeders keep hatchlings TOGETHER until after the first shed?

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Because that's only a period of 7-10 days and mimics behavior in the wild where hatchlings will remain around the egg mass until they shed and the disperse to live life on their own.

Breeders do it because it works ... and the majority of breeders don't house more than one ball python per cage for the entirety of their life because it doesn't work ... go figure. :rolleye2:

Blessings,

-adam

different strokes for different folks. i am pretty sure i did some non text book stuff when i bred my blood pythons, but i had 100 percent success rate.

so if your methods produce results then awesome, if your methods cause all of your snakes to die then fail....and try again.

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Originally Posted by redpython

different strokes for different folks. i am pretty sure i did some non text book stuff when i bred my blood pythons, but i had 100 percent success rate.

so if your methods produce results then awesome, if your methods cause all of your snakes to die then fail....and try again.

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This has to do with -sample size- though.

You don't state how many times, with how many animals, how many eggs, how many hatchlings, how many this, that and the other thing went on. People have "success" a lot with minuscule sample sizing. This doesn't prove anything scientifically though. There is a METHOD to science (hence the scientific method). The SM isn't the end all be all of science, but it is for things that are testable. Just because what you did worked in the above mentioned instances, dosen't mean it will work all the time for everyone. (that said, i have NO idea about bloods or borneos).

People do have a ton of different husbandry methods for BPs though.. Some people keep them in glass some in plastic, some in acrylic, some offer 5 hides some offer 3 some offer none, some feed F/T some feed live, some people try to feed their snakes snake-sausages..

I think i understand what Adam has been trying to say, i'm not going to go quote 6 pages of replies but one or two, or even 10 videos of BPs being found together in the wild during breeding season (like it was said before, if there are eggs found with the snakes, we can probably assume what time of the year it is). 10 videos don't constitute fact or study. I would believe that logically they would have to spend time together in the wild or else there wouldn't be more babies around. We know other predatory animals are solitary in the wild except for breeding season.

I've talked with people keeping and breeding BPs for a long time (30 years or more in most cases). The methods we have used to keep these animals HAVE changed, thats the thing! The "old school" methods of keeping BPs have changed. People don't keep them in communal groups any longer -for a reason- its because the animals thrive in individual enclosures. They get sick less often, feed more reliably, females lay bigger clutches, etc.

If Mike wants to experiment with his animals, he can. They are his animals. But this still wouldn't constitute scientific study. A real study would take more working together, and pretty rigid constraints and control groups and study groups in numbers large enough to actually give an accurate result.

And there was something a great professor told me when i was in college: NO result or a FAILING result is STILL A RESULT. We don't always get the answers we want in a situation, study or experiment.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Because that's only a period of 7-10 days and mimics behavior in the wild where hatchlings will remain around the egg mass until they shed and the disperse to live life on their own.

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Ah, so if you are doing something that "mimics behavior found in the wild" then it is ok....

YouTube - Ball pythons in the wild[/QUOTE]

But this video should not be considered in the discussion for some reason... because it is a Utube video? Or because video of one happening certainly is not proof that it can and does happen?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Breeders do it because it works

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Interesting concept isn't it? Keeping grow out females in pairs works for me. It has worked for me for a while now. If I ever observe a substantial reason not to do it in my own collection, I will change. Until then I will just keep doing what works for me.

In this whole big long thread there have only been I believe two or three replies to my original question.... The summary of those answers is that yes you can breed a male to multiple females at once, but generally breeders don't do it because they don't have as much control over the situation. Thanks. That is all the information I was looking for.

Good Day,

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Thanks. That is all the information I was looking for.

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You're very welcome. I'm happy to help by sharing my experiences whenever I can.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Ah, so if you are doing something that "mimics behavior found in the wild" then it is ok....

YouTube - Ball pythons in the wild

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But this video should not be considered in the discussion for some reason... because it is a Utube video? Or because video of one happening certainly is not proof that it can and does happen?


[/QUOTE]


Not sure I understand what you are trying to show here? In the video they said it was 2 males and one female in a hole. That does not seem too odd to me especially since it was taken during breeding season.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Not sure I understand what you are trying to show here? In the video they said it was 2 males and one female in a hole. That does not seem too odd to me especially since it was taken during breeding season.

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Some believe that BP's are ONLY by themselves in the wild. They believe that BP's experience nothing but stress and unhappiness when they are together with other BP's with the exception of breeding.

Others (like myself) are no so quick to go along with these theories, especially when our own observations and experiences show us differently.

The point of the video is it shows an instance in Ghana where 3 BP's were living together in the same hole. Could it have been just been a chance encounter because it was the breeding season? Sure it could have. but maybe it wasn't. The female already laid eggs so it had to at least been the very end of the breeding season if not past the breeding season. Either way, she wasn't breeding any more.

Going back to the original question.
I would be concerned about having 3 snakes in 1 tub with a lock up. If 2 snakes were locked up and the 3rd decided to go cruising over them or entwined in them I would imagine it could do some damage to both the male and female locked up if they were pulled apart. Beside that thought, they may not hold locks due to the 3rd snake being in there and added stress.
I know some boa breeders will have a 1.2 breeding maybe some research into that may help.
I'm not sure if you would separate them when they were about to lie. Females get uncomfortable before lying and move around a lot. This is a stressful time for them which could be exasperated by the other female and causing stress to that other female. Then going to one female being on eggs while the other's getting ready to lie, I would imagine that female #2 would definitely be struck at.
Also consider tub size. Having 3500+ grams worth of snake in one undersized (I'm not saying that yours are, just generally speaking) tub could cause bent scales and unnecessary rubbing which could lead to infections.

Personally I would not embark in this particular new housekeeping.
But, we all want to be the best keepers we can. If experimenting can teach us a new, better way, great. Just as long as the animals are safe, healthy and as ‘happy’ as we can understand them to be.

Keep us posted and Good Luck!

Key word that ive seen with keeping two or more snakes together is "can" "can survive successfully" well yeah, a man can fly to the moon, but not all men can. some dogs can escape a fenced yard, some cant. there have also been times where ball pythons kill each other due to one deciding to eat the other. Studies have been done in private homes aswell as businesses. It is generally the fact that they will eat and be merry, but a solitary snake is just as merry. back to the words of ball ptyhon owners everywhere "its up to the individual(s) in question"

Well as much as when I do plan to breed bp, I plan to breed one pair at a time, I don't see why breeding 1 male to 2 females is such a terrible thing. If one plants to breed them in a small tub, then the snakes might get pissy.

If you give them space, it could very well work out. You can just mark which one is which so you don't lose track. Although there certainly are some potential problems that could arise, I think that most people are against it simply because it's against what most people have been doing with ball pythons, and they are afraid to go and try something new.

Of course, I am referring to getting them pregnant, and then moving them to seperate enclosures to laye eggs.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

#1 Mike is not the first person to have BP's in captivity. There is no need for further experiments about multiple housing, it has all been done before.
#2 You have 3 ball pythons (as per your sig) how can you make an assumption that they will OK living together. I do believe that the snake on top was the dominant one. By you stating that "they swapped" tells me that they were in a struggle for domination.
#3 Good luck letting them rest 1/2 a day after eating before handling. I'm sure that's gonna work out great in the long run.

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#1 there is always room for more info. if anything he can be another example of a failure... but it doesn't seem like hes failing. I don't see whats so wrong about trying something. If it works learn from it, if it doesn't work learn from it.
#2 I have 7, havn't updated the sig, but that doesn't matter, if they were fighting for domination then they surly show it by not moving much, i see them sleeping, curled up together. then i go check on them a few hours from now and one obviously got out and moved around then went back to sleep...if ask me they just curl up together. last one in the hide is the one on top.

but thats my observation with 2 snakes, well and also my breeding male and female also swap spots when their together, one is never always on top, but im sure breeding is a different thing. but where is any evidence that they are trying to dominate each other and not just curling up together because thats what alot of animals do. im not trying to be a jerk eigher, i would like to see some sort of a report saying else wise, i don't see it.
#3 no negative effects observed, I can't say much more than that.