Disturbing

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Originally Posted by Ezekiel285

I have only been a part of this forum for 2 months but i rarely feel that there are "angry" threads. Argument is going to happen where there are differing opinions and this argument can be healthy or unhealthy. However, i do not feel that these arguments are malicious or mean spirited but rather simple discussions of differing opinion, such as what is going on now. I do not agree with you, but i am not attacking you personally. :)

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And when they do get genuinely malicious, those people are put in their place rather quickly. There is a big difference between joking around to diffuse a situation, and actual mean, hateful, behavior towards other members. That is never tolerated here.

Some members are just cocky. It's their nature. You learn who they are fairly quickly and you learn to deal with it or ignore it, but they are not directly mean to others. Some people just can't take their criticism and can become offended. You need to learn the difference. Take in everything with an open mind.

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Originally Posted by L2.BP.Plox

It is not so much the topics that bother me, if they are appropriate. I feel that most have been, but there are a few that have not. It is the behavior of the people that saddens me. As a thriving and expanding community of breeders I expect more. A community does not grow in a healthy manner when its people are war-torn, so to speak. The manner of discussion has become a war with words rather than an enlightened collection of ideology.

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First this is not an community of breeders. Its a community "for ALL your herping needs!"

Second I could not disagree with you more. Community's only grow when people passionately discuss things. If I person says

"I have a male 800 gram BP, a 1400 gram male and a 1000 gram female in a tank with a heat rock and no hides or thermostat and for some reason the dial hygrometer is reading 0% humidity, WHAT SHOULD I DO I need to fix this problem quick so I can add my new baby boa who is wheezing."

I don't expect that everyone can keep a civil tongue. I would agree with those asking everyone to keep a civil tongue though. I would have no problem with someone ridiculing a member saying how keeping more than one snake together is a fine idea because although they may be right under certain circumstances, now is not the time to push that agenda. I am sorry but I think you are just plain wrong. There is a place for heated debates and they can advance the community and its better to have them on a forum than face to face. If you don't like the thread, stop reading it.

I moved this thread out of the Ball Python forum because it's not about ball pythons.

To the OP....

I'm sorry you've seen some threads/discussions here that you find disturbing. We do have an ebb and flow of negative topics here at times. We can go for long stretches with nothing but "nice" threads...and then have a span of days or a week or two with a number of controversial threads popping up. It happens. It's just the nature of the venue.

While it's all fine and good to say, "We should all be able to get along and be nice, even when we disagree on something"...that is an impossibly vague idea to be able to live up to. Everyone has different opinions that they wish to express....and everyone has different degrees of tolerance on how topics and disagreements are handled.

Also, each person has a completely different skill set when it comes to dealing with other people, expressing their own opinion/feelings, and communicating in this very limited and specific format of text in an open forum. Some people are exceptional diplomats capable of clear and concise communication with the written word. Some people, regardless of the manner of communication, are incapable of expressing their opinion without being aggressive or condescending or defensive or whatever. Some people just aren't that good at putting their thoughts into a written format, no matter how good their intentions.

You say, "But, I am a firm believer that it can be done in a calm and collective manner without any snide remarks or privacy infringing statements." ....and I say, "Show me an open, public forum with more than a few hundred active members that never has a single snide remark or a difference of opinion that comes across a little heated."

First, you come off as a distasteful sort of person claiming they never make a disparaging remark or ever disagree in the slightest manner ever, by your post that somehow the forum is full of people being argumenative and negative. Perhaps you avoid posting anything that could possibly be construed in the slightest negative manner.. but I'd bet you don't post much of substance if that's true. People who discuss anything at all will disagree and in any disagreement between people, some will find the fact that someone has a differing opinion to be offensive. Healthy discussion is not made up of agreements. It's made up of differing opinions and ideas. Even on this forum, there's people who claim to have two snakes living in one cage and no one flames them automatically. There's a degree of civility here that doesn't exist on many forums.

Second, the cobra was eating it's natural food. In fact, you never even stated what it WAS eating, as "albino" is not a creature, it's a color mutation. Was it an albino rat, an albino BP, an albino cobra? No matter what creature it was eating, it was eating food. It's not evil to show a cobra eating a snake, no more than showing a BP eating a rat. It's food. People eat cheeseburgers, BPs eat rats and cobras (usually) eat other snakes. Finding it offensive that the cobra was eating it's natural food is akin to someone who keeps pet rats coming on here and stating they find a feeding pic to be offensive because it shows a rat being consumed by a snake.

Lastly, if you don't feel that any killing is ever humane, I'd hope you were a vegan and don't keep any carnivore pets(like dogs, cats, ferrets, reptiles... etc). Humane means that the creature did not feel unnecasary pain. I believe you somehow are trying to say any killing is immoral. Humane has little to do with whether the creature is albino, sick, or needed for food. It has more to do with the method. Freezing a mammal is generally accepted to be inhumane in most cases. Killing a mouse with CO2 gas is not considered to be inhumane, even if the mouse is not sick or injured. It's part of keeping pets to accept that some need to eat other creatures, whether it's whole and natural or processed into kibble.

And I agree with JLC, find any active forum that's full of information and healthy ideas and varying opinions that doesn't completely restrict the members freedom to post, and you'll see plenty of debating and arguments and in most forums, a lot of nasty commentary in the process. At least here I usually only see the debate, the argument, the discussion. Here you don't see name-calling or threats. I've always felt that the moment you have to call names, you've lost the argument. It recalls those days in kindergartin when the arguement consisted of "You're wrong!" "Yeah, why?" "Cause you're a doodyhead!" If you're out of reasoning argument to support your opinions, you should concede or step back... not regress to toddler stage. At least on THIS forum, I see that happening more often than not. When someone forgets this idea, they are reminded by the staff via warning points.

And of course, there's always the "If you don't like this forum, there's plenty of others for you to GO enjoy." Just saying.

I told myself I wasn't going to comment on opinions... Oh well...

I tend to correct statements that are inaccurate, unclear, or wrong. I have done so. You have your opinion on culling and feeding snakes their natural prey. That is fine I have my opinions on both of those subjects as well. Does it matter to you what I think? No. Does it matter to me what you think? No. It is fine to have your opinion, I applaud people whom on opinion threads who stand up and say what is in their hearts and minds. That is cool, take what you will from those threads and topics. You how ever have decided to regurgitate an older topic and complain about peoples opinions. If you don't like it don't post about it. The only thing you have done is start the whole thing again and lead more people to the threads you find bothersome. If it offends you let it rest and slip back into the archive of old posts... You are not changing peoples minds nor are you changing opinions it is a waste of time for me and everyone else whom could simply not let it slide.

I want to state that it was not the opinions that upset me, but the behavior I observed that upset me. I would like to clarify that I enjoy and support debate, so long as it is enlightened and civil. If it is anything other, I do not believe it serves a purpose nor do I believe it is constructive. That being said, I have responded to certain posts with explanations and responses. I hope this clears up my stand point a little bit. I apologize if I came across offensive to anyone. It was definitely not my intention.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Personally I am not going to comment on ethics but this comment bothers me Albinism is simply a genetic flaw it occurs naturally in every species. It is noting more than a lack of melanin in the chromataphores of the skin. It is in no way regional at all. Rare yes but if a wild king came across an albino snake it would be food just the same as any other snake.

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I did not write "Albino Ball Python", and I apologize for that. I had presumed that most people saw the picture, and I was incorrect. I was referring to king cobras and ball pythons being in different places regionally.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

So are passion, debate, and difference of opinion wrong?

Is what is going on here any different than having a difference of opinion with people in real life?

Should a forum only be about complimenting pictures and giving a few husbandry advice without ever discussing serious/sensitive subject?

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I was not at all saying that passion, debate, and difference are opinion are wrong, and I am sorry if it came out that way. What I felt was out of place were people mocking each other and infringing upon privacy. I enjoy debate, but I believe it should be done in a civil manner. I do believe debate helps people expand their opinions and knowledge, and that it is vital on forums. But again, if it does not happen in a civil way, it does not help anyone.

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Originally Posted by Alexandra V

That being said, I did see the thread with the cobra eating the ball python. I think personally that it may not have been in the best of taste considering this is a forum full of people who love ball pythons, and the OP should have at least thought of that before posting. However, I wouldn't have a problem with something like that being posted if they had offered a fair warning in the title (I.E. "Warning - Graphic"). I think what happened there was that people were lured in by an ambiguous title and then taken completely off-guard. I personally don't expect to see a ball python being eaten by a cobra when I click on a thread title like that.

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I agree that this would have helped a lot. The picture had thrown me off, but the "LOL" is what really bothered me. Additionally, a friend of mine had posted on that particular thread and was mocked by a couple members for his opinion about the photograph being out of place for the environment, and especially the "LOL". Again, I want to make it clear, to everyone, that it was the behavior that disturbed me more so than the picture. However, I thought it to be necessary to explain my opinion as well.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

And when they do get genuinely malicious, those people are put in their place rather quickly. There is a big difference between joking around to diffuse a situation, and actual mean, hateful, behavior towards other members. That is never tolerated here..

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I have definitely seen this happen before. However, there are, in my opinion, other behaviors that go unchecked that are offensive to people. Their presence particularly bothered me in the threads I highlighted in my post, and in a few others that I did not mention because of how much controversy was tied into them.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I moved this thread out of the Ball Python forum because it's not about ball pythons.

To the OP....

I'm sorry you've seen some threads/discussions here that you find disturbing. We do have an ebb and flow of negative topics here at times. We can go for long stretches with nothing but "nice" threads...and then have a span of days or a week or two with a number of controversial threads popping up. It happens. It's just the nature of the venue.

While it's all fine and good to say, "We should all be able to get along and be nice, even when we disagree on something"...that is an impossibly vague idea to be able to live up to. Everyone has different opinions that they wish to express....and everyone has different degrees of tolerance on how topics and disagreements are handled.

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Thank you for moving it where you thought it was most appropriate, Judy. I was not sure where to post it.

I understand that not everyone will get along because of differences in moral values, opinions, and knowledge. I do believe debate is a great way to expand knowledge. I was just very disturbed by the behavior I saw in the mentioned threads and other threads I have read overtime. I kept it to myself the entire time, but it had just become to often that I was reading it. It might be the time of day that I view threads, and the time periods. I was just reading behaviors, that are in my opinion out of place, a lot more. I thought it should be addressed and I did so.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

First, you come off as a distasteful sort of person claiming they never make a disparaging remark or ever disagree in the slightest manner ever, by your post that somehow the forum is full of people being argumenative and negative. Perhaps you avoid posting anything that could possibly be construed in the slightest negative manner.. but I'd bet you don't post much of substance if that's true. People who discuss anything at all will disagree and in any disagreement between people, some will find the fact that someone has a differing opinion to be offensive. Healthy discussion is not made up of agreements. It's made up of differing opinions and ideas. Even on this forum, there's people who claim to have two snakes living in one cage and no one flames them automatically. There's a degree of civility here that doesn't exist on many forums.

Lastly, if you don't feel that any killing is ever humane, I'd hope you were a vegan and don't keep any carnivore pets(like dogs, cats, ferrets, reptiles... etc). Humane means that the creature did not feel unnecasary pain. I believe you somehow are trying to say any killing is immoral. Humane has little to do with whether the creature is albino, sick, or needed for food. It has more to do with the method. Freezing a mammal is generally accepted to be inhumane in most cases. Killing a mouse with CO2 gas is not considered to be inhumane, even if the mouse is not sick or injured. It's part of keeping pets to accept that some need to eat other creatures, whether it's whole and natural or processed into kibble.

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I never said that I do not say that I do not make negative remarks nor did I say I never disagree. I am sorry if you received that idea from my thread. I am imperfect just like everyone else. However, I try my very best not to express my opinion in an offensive manner. I believe that debate in a civil manner is far more constructive than debate in an uncivil manner because it avoids Argumentum Verbosium (which is an augmentative state that focus on attacking on a personal level or exerting so much anger the person ends their opinion and nothing is gained). I agree that if everyone agreed there would be nothing to be learned. I cannot express enough that I did not intend for people to think I do not agree with debate. I just do not believe debate should occur in an offensive or infringing manner. This forum site has more civility than a lot of other forum sites, I will agree with you there. However, my observations have led me to conclude that has been a great increase in offensive behaviors. It is this increase that I sough to address.

Your second point, I did not include in the quote; however, I did talk about it in another person's quote. Again, I apologize for not specifying Ball Python. I see how that could spark some confusion.

On your third point, I believe you misinterpreted me (I am not saying this offensively). I was not saying that it was immoral. I just wanted to address "humane killing". I do not believe there is a way to "humanely" kill a creature. But, I did state that I could see the justification if it ended some sort of illness or intense pain. However, I, personally, would not be able to do it. I do have a corn snake. I have had her for about a year and a half. I am actually looking for a new home for her. I will not be able to take her with me when I move, and I have also been having issues feeding her mice. I have always done f/t'd because it desensitized me quite a bit. However, I do not eat beef because of habititat destruction in South America. (there is a great deal of rain forest destruction to make feeding grounds for cows) I know by not eating beef, I do not stop the destruction of rain forests, but I do not feel comfortable eating it. Applying this same logic, I have not felt quite as comfortable with the f/t'd mice. I would just like to state, once again, I was not intending to re-spark debate on this topic. I felt it necessary to include my opinion at the time. The topic had bothered me because there was a bit of a taunting directed at a particular person for stating they know someone that culled animals. However, since I included it, I appreciate your following after it.

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Originally Posted by L2.BP.Plox

I never said that I do not say that I do not make negative remarks nor did I say I never disagree. I am sorry if you received that idea from my thread. I am imperfect just like everyone else. However, I try my very best not to express my opinion in an offensive manner. I believe that debate in a civil manner is far more constructive than debate in an uncivil manner because it avoids Argumentum Verbosium (which is an augmentative state that focus on attacking on a personal level or exerting so much anger the person ends their opinion and nothing is gained). I agree that if everyone agreed there would be nothing to be learned. I cannot express enough that I did not intend for people to think I do not agree with debate. I just do not believe debate should occur in an offensive or infringing manner. This forum site has more civility than a lot of other forum sites, I will agree with you there. However, my observations have led me to conclude that has been a great increase in offensive behaviors. It is this increase that I sough to address.

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This forum has been around for a long time and it has a diverse population. Just remember that you do not have the right to not be offended. If you want to read others thoughts you are subject to consequences. If you take a offense it is as much or more your fault as it is the person writing.

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Originally Posted by L2.BP.Plox

On your third point, I believe you misinterpreted me (I am not saying this offensively). I was not saying that it was immoral. I just wanted to address "humane killing". I do not believe there is a way to "humanely" kill a creature. But, I did state that I could see the justification if it ended some sort of illness or intense pain. However, I, personally, would not be able to do it. I do have a corn snake. I have had her for about a year and a half. I am actually looking for a new home for her. I will not be able to take her with me when I move, and I have also been having issues feeding her mice. I have always done f/t'd because it desensitized me quite a bit. However, I do not eat beef because of habititat destruction in South America. (there is a great deal of rain forest destruction to make feeding grounds for cows) I know by not eating beef, I do not stop the destruction of rain forests, but I do not feel comfortable eating it. Applying this same logic, I have not felt quite as comfortable with the f/t'd mice. I would just like to state, once again, I was not intending to re-spark debate on this topic. I felt it necessary to include my opinion at the time. The topic had bothered me because there was a bit of a taunting directed at a particular person for stating they know someone that culled animals. However, since I included it, I appreciate your following after it.

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I don't think you know what human means.

Humane: marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals.

If you kill an animal with concern for the animal, in a way that minimizes the pain it feels you are killing the animal humanly, by definition. When you say something like "I do not believe there is a way to "humanely" kill a creature," you are either demonstrating that you don't know what humane means or you don't believe that killing can be done with compassion and sympathy. Since you appear to be intelligent I assume most people jumped to the later as I have. If you don't believe an animal can be killed humanely you are saying that most people on this site are engaged in inhumane practices. I take offense to that. Congratulations you have presented an argument that is offensive to me and I suspect others on this forum. If I were you I would not take this personally but I would take it as evidence that your initial post about wanting people to be less offensive was a bit misguided.