Ballbids.com

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Originally Posted by Dawn Michelle

Yes apparently they have given back the money even to the winners and "gifted" them the snakes. This is from an email they sent out, from one of the people that had money refunded.

Here is my theory. Just a theory, based on my intel......

They might have been contacted and asked if they were aware they were violating a local law, to which of course they would have said "why, no we were unaware" TO which something along the lines of "well in order to avoid legal fees and prosecution you need to refund all money and including the "winners" of your illegal game. Giving the snakes as gifts, IF they even had real winners would be a try and cover your ass move to avoid getting sued by the winners.

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That sounds reasonable. It would also explain why there has been no peep from Zach or Avi for more than a day on their facebook page and why their site is still down. Up until they went silent, they were posting frequently. Now, they are just deleting negative posts. They have not explained on their Facebook page why they refunded everyone's money. So, it seems reasonable to assume that someone is making them do it.

The thing we do not know is, if they are just keeping quiet while they obtain the proper licenses and permits, or have gone out of business. I suspect the latter. So, we may not have seen the last of Bidballs. It is pretty obvious that they have someone funding them. Those investors are not going to give up on their money easily.

I do not think those local ordinances are enough to do too much damage to them, other than make them get legit. The thing that will bring them down is if there is any proof of them rigging the bidding, or using shill bidders. So far, that has not been proven, even though there is some fairly suspicious activity. I don't think it will be too far into the future when we see penny auctions go the way of the poker sites - prohibited. No matter how much someone tries to tell you otherwise, penny auctions are simply gambling in another form.

I think everyone invested in Ballbids underestimated the cohesiveness of the reptile community and the backlash that resulted. Now that many of the big breeders have come out against them, I wonder where they will get their auction stock? Then again, they may use shill buyers.

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Originally Posted by that_dc5

Never said what they were doing was legal...

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Originally Posted by that_dc5

My defense is that nothing they're doing is technically wrong.

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Do you even see what you are writing. If what they are doing is illegal then by definition its technically wrong. That's what not being legal means.

Fed ex will tell anyone about any package they ship,....thats what I found out......thats all i can say for now.....will update soon. :)
:cool:

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Originally Posted by Dawn Michelle

Fed ex will tell anyone about any package they ship,....thats what I found out......thats all i can say for now.....will update soon. :)
:cool:

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:popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Dawn Michelle

Fed ex will tell anyone about any package they ship,....thats what I found out......thats all i can say for now.....will update soon. :)
:cool:

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You tease!

sent from my EVO

So after a bit of research and close scrutiny and a bit of digging we discover that the "winner" nrvgonestop has posted not only a fake shipping box and label, that was NEVER in the fed ex system nor even registers a logical shipping weight, ( 1lb for a snake+heat packs+packing+box....really?) but no package was ever shipped to the address. You see fed ex has all that info in their system and with a few questions and descriptions from the label, it was confirmed that that box NEVER shipped anywhere and that a printed label was slapped on it to try and dupe this very aware hobby community.

This is just more proof that Zack is nrvgonestop, which means he tried to scam everyone out of their money by winning his own auctions, and repeatedly lying about it Also, I believe, when he realized that he wasn't feeding caca to a bunch of dummies and people were starting to put 2 and 2 together he started giving refunds and covering his ass as fast as he could to avoid criminal charges, WHY he is still trying to prove his legitimacy by using fake accounts and "shipping" empty boxes to himself is beyond me. I will be compiling ALL of the data, proof, emails, screen shots I have collected and be making a blog spot that anyone can reference people to if Zack ever even tries to say humidity in this hobby. Shaun, I and many others decided to make it a point NOT to let this fool ever try this in this community again.

Stay tuned. :P

I do have pics of the labels but I dont seem to have permission to upload them to my pics on here, I will get links.....:)

Wow...just wow :) Way to go Dawn Michelle !!

Also doublechecked the tracking numbers through barcodes by legit delivered packages. They went through fedex system. The one from NRVGONESTOP was not in system. We made sure that we were positive that this package was never shipped.

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Originally Posted by 88Snakes

Wow...just wow :) Way to go Dawn Michelle !!

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It has been a team effort!!!

THough I never left the idea that he was after I caught him posting as Nrvgonestop and screen shot it, so......this is just further proof of what we I already heavily suspected...

Add all this up with the whole shady business lisence legitimacy issue, the local law they were breaking, the shady actions during the auctions and Zacks own posts, we can deduce with logical reasoning that they are looking to make a quick buck by trying to scam people into believing they can take a short cut into a precious and well developed hobby. Im just so glad that this hobby is full of passionate and legitimate people who want nothing more than to share with others the great joy in being a herper, and not alowing such fraudulent people and ideas to try and taint it with nothing more than greed and scams.

:mad:

Heres the label, but everything was crossed off.

http://i41.tinypic.com/25ftudi.jpg

I got confirmation that all 3 packages sent by ballbids did in fact get shipped and were delivered where they were supposed to go..

SO here is ANOTHER update. Though we never left the LAW issue, and that is still being investigated, the pkgs were shipped and apparently Nrvgonestop is indeed a real person, I have said from the start that if at any point the truth was revealed, in a legitimate way, I would retract any comments on that portion, So I am doing that now, Everything but the details about the shipping and the nrvgonestop identity is still in the spotlight. Just wanted to update properly.

I also want to come here and apologize to NRVGONESTOP and say we made a mistake. I hope everybody can forget about him, and let him go on with his life with his albino. But we are not going to quit about Ballbids.

So is the proof only that 3 packages were deliverved?

Even with the proper licenses he wouldn't be able to auction off snakes. It states in the local law that it is illegal to give a live animal as a prize for any promotion, event etc that would include auction. It says nothing about needing a license to auction off a live animal. It is illegal, period.

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Originally Posted by Tzeentch

So is the proof only that 3 packages were deliverved?

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The proof is that all 3 snakes auctioned off were shipped and received by real ppl.

The Nvr person is infact a real person which is a teacher in IL.

Glad to see the people got what they won. Thumbs up to ballbids for doing the right thing at least on that. I wouldn't support or give ballbids a single cent of my hard earned cash no matter what they auctioned still but that is just me. For those of you that want to...well...to each their own I guess and good luck with that :salute:

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Originally Posted by Boanerges

Glad to see the people got what they won. Thumbs up to ballbids for doing the right thing at least on that. I wouldn't support or give ballbids a single cent of my hard earned cash no matter what they auctioned still but that is just me. For those of you that want to...well...to each their own I guess and good luck with that :salute:

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You need to read the updates from Dawn. It seems that they were forced to refund everyone's money, even the winners. And the winners received the snakes as gifts. Plus the website has been down for a couple days and they're not even posting anymore, before they were doing this frequently. I believe that they are out of business, and they will not be starting again at least not with auctioning off snakes. You can not get a license in Kentucky to do what they did, which was to offer live animals as a prize for an auction. Again it is illegal, period.

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Originally Posted by evan385

You need to read the updates from Dawn. It seems that they were forced to refund everyone's money, even the winners. And the winners received the snakes as gifts. Plus the website has been down for a couple days and they're not even posting anymore, before they were doing this frequently. I believe that they are out of business, and they will not be starting again at least not with auctioning off snakes. You can not get a license in Kentucky to do what they did, which was to offer live animals as a prize for an auction. Again it is illegal, period.

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And your point of this post to me was exactly what? I read her posts and it seems that way to me also. The winners got what they thought the won even if who they won them from is proven to have been forced to do so. Hopefully they are out of business.

You seem to have a lot invested in this for some reason. And that is great :gj: I on the other hand do not and I am not really in the mood to have a back and forth with you over nothing...

How do we know that this was indeed resolved?

A bunch of people said "oh no it didn't!"... Then said "oh yes it did".

Just curious how this was proven and resolved.

Bruce

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

How do we know that this was indeed resolved?

A bunch of people said "oh no it didn't!"... Then said "oh yes it did".

Just curious how this was proven and resolved.

Bruce

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Was proven via Robyn from SYR. I Talked to him about it and he informed me he watched all 3 packages. They all arrived on time and where they were supposed to go.

We are still looking into the law portion. All has went silent when that point was brought up. We will see.

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Originally Posted by Dawn Michelle

So after a bit of research and close scrutiny and a bit of digging we discover that the "winner" nrvgonestop has posted not only a fake shipping box and label, that was NEVER in the fed ex system nor even registers a logical shipping weight, ( 1lb for a snake+heat packs+packing+box....really?) but no package was ever shipped to the address. You see fed ex has all that info in their system and with a few questions and descriptions from the label, it was confirmed that that box NEVER shipped anywhere and that a printed label was slapped on it to try and dupe this very aware hobby community.

This is just more proof that Zack is nrvgonestop, which means he tried to scam everyone out of their money by winning his own auctions, and repeatedly lying about it Also, I believe, when he realized that he wasn't feeding caca to a bunch of dummies and people were starting to put 2 and 2 together he started giving refunds and covering his ass as fast as he could to avoid criminal charges, WHY he is still trying to prove his legitimacy by using fake accounts and "shipping" empty boxes to himself is beyond me. I will be compiling ALL of the data, proof, emails, screen shots I have collected and be making a blog spot that anyone can reference people to if Zack ever even tries to say humidity in this hobby. Shaun, I and many others decided to make it a point NOT to let this fool ever try this in this community again.

Stay tuned. :P

I do have pics of the labels but I dont seem to have permission to upload them to my pics on here, I will get links.....:)

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So this is all retracted?

What was the "research" and close "scrutiny" that was applied here? I'm seeing a lot of pitchforks and bull spit. The focus of this thread should be the outing of someone trying to make a quick buck on the hobby. This thread started circling the drain when people began making baseless accusations and cluttering the joint up with self-important chest beating.

FWIW, in many counties, it is considered cruelty to offer a live animal as a prize for a promotion, raffle, etc.

Guess which county and state this is from (hint - not Kentucky):

Live animal prizes prohibited. Whoever gives away or offers to give away any live animal as a prize in any game, drawing, sweepstakes or other promotion, shall be in violation of this section.

Now let be very clear on this, lest some hot-headed jack-ass tries to take my comments out of context.

Husbandry Concerns:

First, as Joe and others have pointed out, the leaders of Ballbids have a very questionable past (or lack of) in this hobby. The lack of QT, their desire to set up this venture as a means to cash in on the hobby, etc. are all real issues.

However, I could easily say that many people who were jumping on Ballbids with gusto have absolutely no idea what constitutes proper quarantine.

I could also point out several well-respected and roundly worshipped big box breeders who buy whole clutches and then sell them immediately.

The point? Figure it out. I'm in no way supporting Ballbids so before some knucklehead tries to go there - be careful, but you have all heard about those in glass houses and stones, right?

Cruelty to Animals and Prizes

There are countless local entities that have legislation regarding live animals as prizes. However, I work for a local jurisdiction (in a separate capacity) and had the chance to talk to one of our animal control officers just yesterday.

Bottom line of the conversation: auctioning off an animal for the purpose of selling said animal is a grey area - at least where I work. The intent of the statute is to curtail the use of live animals as prizes. However, if I were to hold an auction for the purposes of selling said animal as either a producer or owner of said animal, the locality is unsure whether that fits under the letter and intent of the law as the auction is for the sole purpose of selling the animal, not offering it as a prize or not promoting some other venture by way of offering the animal.

Bottom line - there are "well-respected" breeders who hold auctions for the purpose of selling animals. Some of which most likely do so in jurisdictions where similar bans on using live animals as prizes for promotions exist. Let me repeat: where I live, this is a grey area. If I can prove that the auction is for the intent of selling the animal instead of as a "prize", the common wisdom is that the statute in my locality does not apply.

Bottom Line

Zack and Avi came up with a scheme to make some coin on the morph craze. They decided to use the Penny Auction model to do so. They falsely advertised, they claimed alliances with big names in the hobby that did not exist, and they talked out of both sides of their mouths.

Joe highlighted Zack's questionable past in the hobby. In the end, they got caught and the salient points were brought to light.

All that is good. It is always good to point out a scammer. It is always good to point out someone who may be a shady character with dubious motives.

However, it is not okay to start flinging about baseless crap like a monkey at the zoo, This thread is now littered with countless baseless accusations regarding false shipping labels, rigging bids and the integrity of Wilbanks.

Some of you need to be very careful and keep your egos and your hysteria in check. You have turned this thread from being relevant to borderline embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Bottom Line

Zack and Avi came up with a scheme to make some coin on the morph craze. They decided to use the Penny Auction model to do so. They falsely advertised, they claimed alliances with big names in the hobby that did not exist, and they talked out of both sides of their mouths.

Joe highlighted Zack's questionable past in the hobby. In the end, they got caught and the salient points were brought to light.

All that is good. It is always good to point out a scammer. It is always good to point out someone who may be a shady character with dubious motives.

However, it is not okay to start flinging about baseless crap like a monkey at the zoo, This thread is now littered with countless baseless accusations regarding false shipping labels, rigging bids and the integrity of Wilbanks.

Some of you need to be very careful and keep your egos and your hysteria in check. You have turned this thread from being relevant to borderline embarrassing.

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Thank you. I could not agree more.

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Originally Posted by evan385

Even with the proper licenses he wouldn't be able to auction off snakes. It states in the local law that it is illegal to give a live animal as a prize for any promotion, event etc that would include auction. It says nothing about needing a license to auction off a live animal. It is illegal, period.

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Wait. As much as I dislike ballbids, why are we making such a fuss out of the live animal as a prize thing? It seems to me that we've almost run out of things to complain about and we're stirring up whatever we can in order to keep the drama going.

Isn't there an annual Bailey's clutch contest held on THIS SITE every year? That virtually all of us really enjoy and readily participate in?

I realize that the local law where the Bailey's people are may be different. However, we're still making this huge deal out of it when ballbids does the exact same thing, as if it's objectively morally wrong to be doing it, while we all condone it when somebody we approve of is involved. I'm not defending them, but I'd really prefer it if we could be more discriminating in what we accuse them of.

May he who is without sin...

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Originally Posted by Dawn Michelle

We are still looking into the law portion. All has went silent when that point was brought up. We will see.

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Who is "we"???? Are you a member of some secret ball python law enforcement agency?

I see you have been a member of the site for 8 days and have 1 bp and 27 posts.

Just a few posts back you stated "So after a bit of research and close scrutiny and a bit of digging we discover that the "winner" nrvgonestop has posted not only a fake shipping box and label, that was NEVER in the fed ex system nor even registers a logical shipping weight, ( 1lb for a snake+heat packs+packing+box....really?) but no package was ever shipped to the address. You see fed ex has all that info in their system and with a few questions and descriptions from the label, it was confirmed that that box NEVER shipped anywhere and that a printed label was slapped on it to try and dupe this very aware hobby community. "

For the record, calling someone a liar and printing false information is an act of libel and puts YOU open to a civil tort.

While I certainly don't agree with the model - I think your taking this a bit too seriously.

Hey guys I just posted this over at the Say no to Ballbids site and wanted to post it here as well.

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I am withdrawing from this page. I feel the task was accomplished and its current existence is merely to "Spike the Ball". I would be more than willing to rejoin if and when Ballbid resumes operations AND can be PROVEN to be running dishonestly again. I think we accomplish what we set out to do, and that should be enough for now.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

So this is all retracted?

What was the "research" and close "scrutiny" that was applied here? I'm seeing a lot of pitchforks and bull spit. The focus of this thread should be the outing of someone trying to make a quick buck on the hobby. This thread started circling the drain when people began making baseless accusations and cluttering the joint up with self-important chest beating.

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Well Like I already stated, and apologized for the preempted accusatory post in regards to this subject. There were several people looking into the subject of fraud, and at one point what with the avoidance Zack applied to the subject, and certain details that surfaced, I did indeed make this post. I have apologized to Zack, and on all forums for that. The subject is the law and the format to get rich. Again I apologize for any confusion I may have caused. I didn't mean to come across as a "self-important chest beater", as that was not my intention.

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Originally Posted by womsterr

Who is "we"???? Are you a member of some secret ball python law enforcement agency?

I see you have been a member of the site for 8 days and have 1 bp and 27 posts.

Just a few posts back you stated "So after a bit of research and close scrutiny and a bit of digging we discover that the "winner" nrvgonestop has posted not only a fake shipping box and label, that was NEVER in the fed ex system nor even registers a logical shipping weight, ( 1lb for a snake+heat packs+packing+box....really?) but no package was ever shipped to the address. You see fed ex has all that info in their system and with a few questions and descriptions from the label, it was confirmed that that box NEVER shipped anywhere and that a printed label was slapped on it to try and dupe this very aware hobby community. "

For the record, calling someone a liar and printing false information is an act of libel and puts YOU open to a civil tort.

While I certainly don't agree with the model - I think your taking this a bit too seriously.

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You are correct. A post was made about 5 min prematurely, it was my mistake that I take responsibility for. As I have said I have apologized. Though I don't understand why it matters how many BP's I have or how long I have been a member? Anyway, A mistake was made and the appropriate action was taken.

Does anyone know if Underground Reptiles is suppling them with animals this time around?

I would be interested to know who is supplying them... so I know who NOT to do business with.

I'm gonna get really really mad if this tread get bigger than female snake Keepers....:rage:

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Originally Posted by Aes_Sidhe

I'm gonna get really really mad if this tread get bigger than female snake Keepers....:rage:

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Well then the female snake keepers better get busy....

Die Thread Die :stab::stab::stab::stab: REDRUM REDRUM

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Originally Posted by Slim

Die Thread Die :stab::stab::stab::stab: REDRUM REDRUM

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Don't you have the power over life and death to threads? If so, then it is quite possible. :snake:

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Originally Posted by Virus

Don't you have the power over life and death to threads?

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Yes I do, but I try to use those powers for good. And JLC tells me what good is ;)

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Originally Posted by Virus

Don't you have the power over life and death to threads? If so, then it is quite possible. :snake:

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That power needs to be used to stop the REASON this thread exists......

Underground reptiles did indeed sell them a few snakes, but once they were educated on what exactly ballbids did and who there were and how they acted they IMMEDIATELY withdrew all support!
Ballbids has NOT taken down the info from Underground yet, it will be interesting if they continue to leave it up. Underground explained what happened on both their facebook account and on the Say NO to ballbids facebook page.

waiting to see if all the new "winners" get the snakes they won plus there is a guy in my town that won so i might be able to get real pics for quality ect

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Originally Posted by Abaddon91

waiting to see if all the new "winners" get the snakes they won plus there is a guy in my town that won so i might be able to get real pics for quality ect

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I hope your not holding your breath while waiting :P.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I hope your not holding your breath while waiting :P.

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to be honest the winner is a person that ive known for months on another reptile board so i will ask him but to me if they are back up they've figured out the legality part of this and if the winners get the snakes then i would say its not a scam a cheap way to make money but not everybody has the passion it takes to just breed and sell the normal and i did reall all the pages of this post and had major doubts bout this until i find out the animals are really hitting people who are not bots or family or hackers ect

Marty Kerstetter who is full of insults answered when someone calls him Zack. Always thought Marty was Zack.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...62629094_n.jpg