this is beautiful i wantted to share

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Originally Posted by interloc

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml



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You see, the bible is not proof in my mind. It is just a book. ;) so you will never be able to convince me with that logic!

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Simply becuase this isn't the place and I don't care to have this discussion with someone who I have never met nor will ever meet, I won't make a list of everything that the website that your link claimed and then one by one explain why they aren't "proof" at all, but I challenge you, if you want to have stronger faith in your religion (though I believe that if your faith is derived from the bible that you will end up with less strength in your faith), to examine all of the proofs yourself and see what evidence there actually is for them. The writing on that website runs completely off of assumptions and no actual evidence.

Can you prove that Mary was a virgin? Only two gospels make that claim. Did Jesus perform any miracles? I first challenge you to find proof of he actaully existed. WHat did the bible prophesy that has come true? If the arrival of the Messiah is your best example then you're hurting, becuase the bible was written by men with agendas, even if they had the best of intentions when writing what they wrote. Why wouldn't they shade their new writings (new testament) to agree with the old ones? Simply the place of the birth of Jesus and the time and supporting evidence conflict horribly! christianity has pagan DNA, that is a fact, plain and simple, since the writers of the book wanted to make it easier for pagans to make the switch. To believe anything from your website you first have to believe the bible as fact, and this is the same book that says to stone homosexuals to death as well as women who cheat on their husbands. I really could cite multiple references and go on and on, however I would rather not. If you believe then that is up to you, however I don't.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Simply becuase this isn't the place and I don't care to have this discussion with someone who I have never met nor will ever meet, I won't make a list of everything that the website that your link claimed and then one by one exmplain why they aren't "proof" at all, but I challenge you, if you want to have stronger faith in your religion (though I believe that if your faith is derived from the bible that you will end up with less strength in your faith), to examine all of the proofs yourself and see what evidence there actually is for them. The writing on that website runs completely off of assumptions and no actual evidence.

Can you prove that Mary was a virgin? Only two gospels make that claim. Did Jesus perform any miracles? I first challenge you to find proof of he actaully existed. WHat did the bible prophesy that has come true? If the arrival of the Messiah is your best example then you're hurting, becuase the bible was written by men with agendas, even if they had the best of intentions when writing what they wrote. christianity has pagan DNA, that is a fact, plain and simple. To believe anything from your website you first have to believe the bible as fact, and this is the same book that says to stone homosexuals to death as well as women who cheat on their busbands. I really could cite multiple references and go on and on, however I would rather not. If you believe then that is up to you, however I don't.

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I will admit openly that I'm not the best educated person at proving stuff in the bible. There are many concepts that you need to learn about that will help explain things like the stonings and goat sacrifices. I know people who have went to school and studied this stuff and they are much better people to talk to than I am. I apologize that I can't be of more help. I know what I know and you know what you know. I wish I could defend myself but I don't have the ammo to do so.


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Originally Posted by interloc

I will admit openly that I'm not the best educated person at proving stuff in the bible. There are many concepts that you need to learn about that will help explain things like the stonings and goat sacrifices. I know people who have went to school and studied this stuff and they are much better people to talk to than I am. I apologize that I can't be of more help. I know what I know and you know what you know. I wish I could defend myself but I don't have the ammo to do so.


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The fact that you know that you can't defend your beliefs gives me hope for you. ;) In all seriousness and with the utmost sincerity I challenge you to DO the research into what others have been able to show. Look at evidence both for and against, but beware of religious scholars, as there are many that would argue as to whether or not theology is an actual field. After all, what do they have to go off of? They have the convenience of not being able analyze evidence let alone being able to conduct an experiment to gather evidence. They simply get to say that this is what has been passed down and that this is what someone else has experienced (the human sensory organs are very good at filling in gaps when not enough data is present to construct a clear picture), which is far from a good source. If you do it, please do so with an open of a mind as is possible. Happy researching!

i'm surprised this thread hasn't been quarantined yet. lol but since it hasn't and i have nothing better to do while i'm sitting at work, and nobody really seems to be on interlocs side, i'll voice my opinion on the matter as well. lol

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Originally Posted by interloc

The original ignorance comment was made toward believers saying we were ignorant. Not directed towards the atheists. That word would be stubborn or close minded.


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Originally Posted by gsarchie

On the contrary, being an atheist means that at some point in life, the atheist either 1) was introduced to religious beliefes and made an educated choice not to believe or 2) stopped and looked at what they had been taught since birth and questioned it, turning to atheism when their questions couldn't be answered. By definition they would have an open mind, not a closed one.

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i believe what interloc meant was if a believer called an atheist ignorant, the believer would be called stubborn or closed minded. outspoken atheists often call believers closed minded. this doesn't make much sense to me, as i feel like believing in something you can't touch or see, and not just in what is in front of your face, about as open minded as you can get. but viewing someone as "closed minded" is subjective to each individual.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Please, share with me the information that is "for god," as you put it.

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and then..

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Simply becuase this isn't the place and I don't care to have this discussion with someone who I have never met nor will ever meet, I won't make a list of everything that the website that your link claimed and then one by one explain why they aren't "proof" at all

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you ask for his/her "proof" but then refuse to provide any of your own. shame on you. :colbert:

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

All of that aside, if a christian can make a post that celebrates what they BELIEVE, then I am free to make a post celebrating what I believe.

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a christian never posted anything celebrating what they believe. the OP even stated she was not a religious person.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

This is an open forum, I didn't disrespect anyone, I stated what I feel that religion is

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"on the contrary," (;)) i would say that calling a group of people "proudly ignorant" would indeed be disrespectful. if that is what you believe, that's your right. just because you truly believe that does not make it any less offensive or disrespectful. if i believe a person is overweight, i'm not going to call them fat. i'm going to keep my mouth shut.. but that's just how my momma raised me. to have manners. from reading your previous posts, you seem articulate and educated enough, so don't pretend you have no idea why someone would get offended when called ignorant.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

but I challenge you, if you want to have stronger faith in your religion (though I believe that if your faith is derived from the bible that you will end up with less strength in your faith), to examine all of the proofs yourself and see what evidence there actually is for them. The writing on that website runs completely off of assumptions and no actual evidence.

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the very theory as to the origins of life (i.e. spontaneous generation or [insert any other theory here]) run completely off assumptions and no actual evidence. when i was at a time in my life where i didn't know what to believe, i spent countless hours researching both sides to the God debate. reading both sides, lurking in both atheist and christian forums alike. reading of contradictions in the bible. archeological evidence both for and against jesus of nazareth. theories of the origin of life. the hole 9 yards. the conclusion i came to was that you're going to believe what you WANT to believe. if you get online searching for evidence against god, you will find just that. if you search for evidence to increase your faith, you will find that as well. it all comes down to what you want to believe. there hasn't been a single archeological find that can destroy christianity, nor one that can destroy atheism. i find this very intriguing. ( Matthew 11:25- At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to those of childlike faith.")

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Can you prove that Mary was a virgin? Only two gospels make that claim. Did Jesus perform any miracles? I first challenge you to find proof of he actaully existed.

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can you prove life spontaneously generated? no, but that is what you believe. if you don't believe in a god, you have no choice but to believe that. yet with all the technology we have today (we have google in our pockets and a large hadron collider that can fling atoms to near the speed of light), we have not been able to recreate the beginning of life.. and we're actually TRYING. to believe we weren't created by a higher power is to believe that this could have happened randomly, with no outside intervention, and i believe that to be just as much a leap of faith as believing in a creator.

as for proving jesus actually existed, i think you will have a hard time proving a lot of people that lived 2,000 years ago actually existed. writings of alexander the great and napoleon lead people to accept their existence as fact, even though they are scarce. if there was a secular book as detailed as the bible on any other person in history, their existence would not be questioned even for a moment. the only reason people discredit the bible is because they don't want to believe it. as i said earlier, you can research until you're blue in the face, but what it really comes down to is what you want to believe.

I really could cite multiple references and go on and on, however I would rather not. If you don't believe then that is up to you, however, I do.

this post may get me some heat, but you wanted to know why we believe. i can't speak for all believers, and this is just the tip of my iceberg, but this is part of the reason i chose to have faith. maybe if the day comes when we figure out how inorganic objects randomly arranged themselves in the correct order to come to life, i might reconsider, but until then, i'll back up what i believe and why, just as you do. :)

don't know what went wrong with the font up there. ^^ tried to edit it so it wasn't so tiny and difficult to read, but it wouldn't let me because 10 minutes had already passed.

Text looks fine to me so no worries there. I wanted to know some of what was claimed to be evidence, and what I got was asking me to take a huge leap of faith to consider it evidence. I did not want to get into a discussion here, which is why I said what I said. I won't even do it in a pm because I've got better things to spend my time doing. Also, there is in fact quite a good bit of empirical evidence to support all scientific theory, otherwise it wouldn't survive as such and would be disregarded by the scientific community. I don't believe that this applies to me, but you said that we will what we wish or decide to see no matter what evidence we are presented with. That may be the case with you and of so explains to me why you feel the way that you do. I interpret evidence and then make my assumptions, which is why I believe what I do.

Talk about a hijacked thread, huh? LOL

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

I interpret evidence and then make my assumptions, which is why I believe what I do.

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X2 :)

and yeah. good thing this thread is in the off-topic cafe. lol