Which morphs are stabalizing, which are dropping?

Which morphs do you predict are going to drop a little bit in price this year and which do you think are going to stay the same?

I'v heard that the albinos have stabalized so not to expect them to really ever go down... I've heard that pieds should be coming down a little big from the 08 hatchlings to the 09s... What are your opinions?

I've never bred anything yet, I doubt I will be able to until like 2010 lol. So my opinion doesn't mean much, but I'm thinking that most things will drop a little with the economy being what it is... Which really isn't a good thing, I know... But it works out well for my plans... That is, assuming hopefully the industry stays stable-ish in the long run...

I've been stocking up on female 08s and plan to pick up the male 09s so that they age out at approx the same time, because I'm hoping the 09s will be a little cheaper... Like I'm hoping to get an albino and a pied male 09 to breed to my fem 08 hets....

What I'm wondering about right now is the pinstripes... I just started paying for a fem pinstripe and after researching more on the possible combos for pins, I'm wondering if I should have gotten a pair from him or if I should wait and get an 09 pin. Hmm... Thoughts?

Thanks guys.

I meant to post this in the "breeding" thread... If a mod reads this could you fix it for me? Thank you

There is no such thing as a stabalizing morph. Unfortunately the prices for all of them will continue to drop to some degree.

I don't think any are stabilizing. I think they are all going to continue to drop as long as they are being produced in large numbers. Four years ago Pieds were $4k on average, with low whites being around $3.5k and high whites getting as much as $5k. Now you can get a high white for around $2k. Albinos at the time were around $1k and now I've seen them as low as $375.....pastel males for $50. The only stabilization I see is the drop in prices. lol. Doesn't make any difference to me. I'll still keep them. I really feel sorry for those that spent $30k on mojos and YBs, for them to sell for only 1% of the price they paid. To me, that is as bad as Black Friday at the NYSX.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

There is no such thing as a stabalizing morph. Unfortunately the prices for all of them will continue to drop to some degree.

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You really think so? Does that mean in 10 years Pieds will cost like $400 or something? That seems unfortunate. Not that I'm looking to breed to get rich, but I would like to make some money to sink back into the balls and hopefully other reptiles.

I've heard alot of people say that there's a point where they stop dropping. Alot of people say that the albino isn't going to get any cheaper than it is now... But I thought that meant $5-600... Where's one for $375??? Is it a male? lol

You really think that they're all going to keep dropping? I guess I better get started on combos. lol.

I disagree about the albinos, I think they along with hypos, and possibly even axanthics are going to drop even more this year. I am already seeing some 08 albinos (some nice ones to boot) at 600.

As for which ones I think are "temporarily stabilizing." I would have to say the pied (long shot) and the lavendar albino (definitely) with the tons of pied combos that have just came out, it makes since that they may hold their prices better than others. And lav. albinos are starting to really show their potential, so I say they'll stay where they are for awhile as well.

Other than that I think some of the more common base morphs like spiders and black pastels are going to stay right where they are, atleast for this year.

One thing I think will be an interesting conversation, is do you think the prices on grade A pastels will increase? Why I ask this is because I have noticed that all the good pastels (grade A's) are being purchased like 25 min.s after the add goes up. Soo, with a high demand for them, is it possible that they will sustain their price range, and perhaps maybe even increase alil?

Just my :2cent:

Jyson, I completely agree with you about the nice pastels... I feel like so many people are pumping out the more common co-doms (pastels, mojos...) and they're not selectively breeding them which creates a huge supply of mediocre co-doms. I think the Grade A pastels (or mojos) will definitely hold their value because of this...

I bought an 08 0.1 pastel this summer. I tried to find the most faded pastel possible. I love her but I would definitely just label her as an average looking pastel. She's held her colors fairly well but her dorsal scales are already starting to darken. Because of this, it's definitely caused me to want to find a grade A male pastel for some future selective breeding...

Don't get me wrong... I love all BPs but there's something really special about creating a beautiful selectively bred specimen!

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Originally Posted by Jyson

I disagree about the albinos, I think they along with hypos, and possibly even axanthics are going to drop even more this year. I am already seeing some 08 albinos (some nice ones to boot) at 600.

As for which ones I think are "temporarily stabilizing." I would have to say the pied (long shot) and the lavendar albino (definitely) with the tons of pied combos that have just came out, it makes since that they may hold their prices better than others. And lav. albinos are starting to really show their potential, so I say they'll stay where they are for awhile as well.

Other than that I think some of the more common base morphs like spiders and black pastels are going to stay right where they are, atleast for this year.

One thing I think will be an interesting conversation, is do you think the prices on grade A pastels will increase? Why I ask this is because I have noticed that all the good pastels (grade A's) are being purchased like 25 min.s after the add goes up. Soo, with a high demand for them, is it possible that they will sustain their price range, and perhaps maybe even increase alil?

Just my :2cent:

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Good points. I'm also seeing alot of pastel combos so by your theory that would also help a possible price increase on that... It makes sense to me.

Don't tell me pieds aren't going down! Pieds and clowns are the most expensive base morphs that I really want to add to my collection. Those are the ones I was expecting to drop! Of course if I can get my hands on them then It'll be nice to have some hope for a return on the investment so I have to be careful what I wish for.

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Originally Posted by Jyson

I disagree about the albinos, I think they along with hypos, and possibly even axanthics are going to drop even more this year. I am already seeing some 08 albinos (some nice ones to boot) at 600.

As for which ones I think are "temporarily stabilizing." I would have to say the pied (long shot) and the lavendar albino (definitely) with the tons of pied combos that have just came out, it makes since that they may hold their prices better than others. And lav. albinos are starting to really show their potential, so I say they'll stay where they are for awhile as well.

Other than that I think some of the more common base morphs like spiders and black pastels are going to stay right where they are, atleast for this year.

One thing I think will be an interesting conversation, is do you think the prices on grade A pastels will increase? Why I ask this is because I have noticed that all the good pastels (grade A's) are being purchased like 25 min.s after the add goes up. Soo, with a high demand for them, is it possible that they will sustain their price range, and perhaps maybe even increase alil?

Just my :2cent:

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I purchased an extremely nice 08 female albino 66% het for axanthic for $600. So yes, the price for albino's has dropped.

they will all go down and keep going down unless something raises the demand. also note that as the prices drop some demand will be gained by ppl that will not or can not afford 3k for a snake. this also has some to do with the economy and how bad breeders and deals have to sell or can they hold on to them. pieds will surely drop this year as will clowns. recessive traits hold because it takes longer to produce them in quantity and unless you have 2 visuals you typically will not get more than a few from a clutch. codoms and doms will go way down faster because of ease of production.

even if they are nice ones or not so nice ones they will all go down eventually thats part of supply and demand. some ppl just dont care what they get and some shop around for the nicest or the cheapest price.

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Originally Posted by Jyson

I disagree about the albinos, I think they along with hypos, and possibly even axanthics are going to drop even more this year. I am already seeing some 08 albinos (some nice ones to boot) at 600.

As for which ones I think are "temporarily stabilizing." I would have to say the pied (long shot) and the lavendar albino (definitely) with the tons of pied combos that have just came out, it makes since that they may hold their prices better than others. And lav. albinos are starting to really show their potential, so I say they'll stay where they are for awhile as well.

Other than that I think some of the more common base morphs like spiders and black pastels are going to stay right where they are, atleast for this year.

One thing I think will be an interesting conversation, is do you think the prices on grade A pastels will increase? Why I ask this is because I have noticed that all the good pastels (grade A's) are being purchased like 25 min.s after the add goes up. Soo, with a high demand for them, is it possible that they will sustain their price range, and perhaps maybe even increase alil?

Just my :2cent:

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I honestly don't think any morph is stabilizing. I have friends selling 08 male spiders for $125-150 and females for around $200. I'm sure male spiders in 09 will break $100 and females will not be far behind. Look at hypos. They were around $2k a couple of years ago. Now they are $250-400. And yes, I've seen many albino balls for $375.

As for pastels, yeah grading may get an extra $25, but as I said, I've seen males for $50. Proven breeder males for $175. I sold my proven breeder spider for $500.

Pieds and Lavs are already dropping as well. I hate to say it because all I am working on are pied combos......but that's how it's being played out. The economy combined with supply is not helping prices and when 09s begin hatching, prices are going to tank. Watch and see, pieds will break $1k this year, but those with "big" names will still fetch $1500-2500.

The overall market is falling fast. The only thing I have seen actually doing will is the high end chondro market. Prices are actually going up on most designer chondros. I'm sure once a few of the "big" breeders get in on chondros, they will do the same to that market as well. Already, one of the largest ball breeders in the U.S. is buying up lots of designer chondros. It's only a matter of time.....then they will move on to the next thing that makes money. :(

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I honestly don't think any morph is stabilizing. I have friends selling 08 male spiders for $125-150 and females for around $200. I'm sure male spiders in 09 will break $100 and females will not be far behind. And yes, I've seen many albino balls for $375.
:(

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Prices are definately dropping. This however is a gross exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Prices are definately dropping. This however is a gross exageration.

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i dont think so i just saw a lavender albino female for 3900$
how about the silver streak that was 3k
when i got my pastels in 06 i paid 400 and mine were not the nicest but not ugly either that year everyone else was paying around 600 for a female

I think prices are dropping really fast. When I first got into ball pythons in 2007, the price of a nice pied male was around 2000. I just saw a nice one 50/50 white at a show for 1300. I got my spider male last year for 300 and this year my friend just got a female for around 250. Albino females were 1000-1500 and now I'm seeing female albinos for 600.

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Originally Posted by nixer

i dont think so i just saw a lavender albino female for 3900$
how about the silver streak that was 3k
when i got my pastels in 06 i paid 400 and mine were not the nicest but not ugly either that year everyone else was paying around 600 for a female

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My responce was to what he was claiming about spiders, pastels, and albinos. You can still with little effort sell a normal for $50. being forced to sell a pastel for $50 isn't happening any time soon. Spiders are not going to drop to under $100 in O9.... and finally, there are NOT "plenty of albinos for $375.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

My responce was to what he was claiming about spiders, pastels, and albinos. You can still with little effort sell a normal for $50. being forced to sell a pastel for $50 isn't happening any time soon. Spiders are not going to drop to under $100 in O9.... and finally, there are NOT "plenty of albinos for $375.

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Mike, I hate to tell you, but I give away normal males, and females I sell for $20. That is ALL I can get out of them. Believe what you want. Spiders will be low and so will everything else. When I got my first Pewter in late 06 they were $8k.....now $800. Two years ago, I had people trying to trade mojos even for pieds. No thanks. By the end of the season, they were less than half the original price. By spring of the next year, you could get sub-adults for even less.

And yes, you will see male spiders for $100 or less, and there are PLENTY of albinos for $375. I've seen a few here and there for $300.

Here is the thing, the market may be different in your area than in other places. In my area, there is no market for chondros. When I started producing designer chondros, I would get emails from people in my area saying in our local market chondros only sell for $400. I would respond by telling them, my market is not here....it's everywhere. So yes, prices are falling, falling, falling.

I'm sorry if I am bursting your bubble. That's not my point. So far I've lost lots of $ on pastels and spiders. I'm way ahead with pieds. We'll see how the rest pans out.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I think prices are dropping really fast. When I first got into ball pythons in 2007, the price of a nice pied male was around 2000. I just saw a nice one 50/50 white at a show for 1300. I got my spider male last year for 300 and this year my friend just got a female for around 250. Albino females were 1000-1500 and now I'm seeing female albinos for 600.

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And I'm seeing proven albino males for $600.

A 450 gram male spider for $250 shipped.

Proven male pastel $225 shipped.

300 gram female Lav $3900 shipped.

Albino males $400 females $525 OBO

Pastel males $100 females $200

These are all posted ads that took me less than 5 minutes to find. A good friend of mine just got a 500 gram Enchi for $125 from a well-known breeder. Prices are FAALLLLLLING! :)

I love my Bp's. For about a year now all I've been thinking about is the cool stuff I'll be producing every year. I try not to worry about there monetery value, I'm it in for the animals not the money.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

And I'm seeing proven albino males for $600.

A 450 gram male spider for $250 shipped.

Proven male pastel $225 shipped.

300 gram female Lav $3900 shipped.

Albino males $400 females $525 OBO

Pastel males $100 females $200

These are all posted ads that took me less than 5 minutes to find. A good friend of mine just got a 500 gram Enchi for $125 from a well-known breeder. Prices are FAALLLLLLING! :)

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i saw a pewter male 2 weeks ago for 400$

LOL, don't worry, you didn't burst any bubbles here.

Go ahead and continue to "give" your snakes away....

Do us a favor though. Since you claim there are SO many albinos available for $300... and $375.... why don't you go ahead and post some links for us?

Would you care to place a bet on the spiders? I say there is no way in hell male spiders will normally be going for under $100 in 09. I would be more then willing to put my money where my mouth is on that one. How bout you?

Its not about the money. A lot of hobbyists just want their snakes to pay for themselves to they can go on to get more snakes. I got my pastel male for 100. I got my female pastel for 225. That was a year ago. I haven't seen prices go down too much on those. I think one of the problems is, you have all these new people putting a bit of money into snakes and then turning around and selling the offspring for next to nothing. They feel they have to price it below the big guys in order to sell anything. If you look at the big breeders, prices haven't gone down much. It is new and upcoming breeders that are selling their snakes for less.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

LOL, don't worry, you didn't burst any bubbles here.

Go ahead and continue to "give" your snakes away....

Do us a favor though. Since you claim there are SO many albinos available for $300... and $375.... why don't you go ahead and post some links for us?

Would you care to place a bet on the spiders? I say there is no way in hell male spiders will normally be going for under $100 in 09. I would be more then willing to put my money where my mouth is on that one. How bout you?

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Mike, I can see I struck a nerve with you and that was not my intention. Do you attend any shows? Internet prices are inflated more so because the market will reach more people that don't get to shows....depending on the show. Does that make sense? Some shows prices are higher.

Where did I say Spiders will "normally" be selling for under $100. I said males will break the $100 mark. And yes, I'll put my where my mouth is on that.

You really don't think albinos are going to break $375 next year? Check out Evan Stahl. He has them right now for $400.

The ads you see posted are not the only animals for sale. I stopped breeding for pastels because in 07 I was selling males for $100 and females for $250-300. That was the "market" prices. This year, yes I've seen male pastels for as low as $50 each.

I see the same animals for sale day after day, week after week, month after month.....so much so that I just stopped watching. They are not selling at current speculative prices. How are breeders going to ask 08 prices on 09s, when the 08s are not selling at 08 prices? Sell your animals for what you think they are worth, but don't be surprised if you still have them the following year.

I'll ask you this. What do you think a Pewter 100% het Pied should sell for? I have the only ones offered for sale. What would you consider a fair selling price?

Again, I'm not trying to start a pissing match. I'm just stating what I see.

i got my 08 albino female for $300 it was a deal i couldnt pass up

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

You really don't think albinos are going to break $375 next year? Check out Evan Stahl. He has them right now for $400.

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I also have no interest in a pissing contest, so this will be my last reply.

You stated that there are many albinos selling for $375 and even $300. I called this and your other claims an exaggeration, and asked you to show us some that were for sale for such prices. Now you are talking about how someone is selling them for $400....

Nevermind.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I also have no interest in a pissing contest, so this will be my last reply.

You stated that there are many albinos selling for $375 and even $300. I called this and your other claims an exaggeration, and asked you to show us some that were for sale for such prices. Now you are talking about how someone is selling them for $400....

Nevermind.

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Mike, you are asking me to show you animals that have sold, or prices that are not posted. I guess you are one of those people that just pays whatever price you first see. Take a look around and YOU WILL see. Just because you don't see them, does not mean they are not there. These were prices I saw last summer. If you do the calculations, it would make sense in your view that prices of 08s would be higher than $400.

Here is another one. A friend of mine just got a cinny male, albino male, and two spiders for guess what.....$500.

You still want to make that bet? Watch and see. It's already happening.

strike that sliver streak i found one for 2250 on kingsnake right now
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=664977

I can't wait for prices to be on a level that I can afford.

I know for some, this isn't ideal, but sure would make the low-level hobbyist happy.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

LOL, don't worry, you didn't burst any bubbles here.

Go ahead and continue to "give" your snakes away....

Do us a favor though. Since you claim there are SO many albinos available for $300... and $375.... why don't you go ahead and post some links for us?

Would you care to place a bet on the spiders? I say there is no way in hell male spiders will normally be going for under $100 in 09. I would be more then willing to put my money where my mouth is on that one. How bout you?

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There are tons of breeders that give their animals away, simply because they don't have the patience to find the right buyer. Imagine if every time a person walked onto a car lot, the seller would drop the price to the point of guaranteeing the person would buy. Good businesses do not do this. While you can buy morph XYZ for such and such a price, it doesn't mean they won't sell at higher prices as well.

A breeder I know had his super mojos up at what I thought was a price too high to sell. But sure enough, about 9 months later they are almost all gone selling at that exact price.

JonV

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I can't wait for prices to be on a level that I can afford.

I know for some, this isn't ideal, but sure would make the low-level hobbyist happy.

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This is another reason that dropping prices are not all bad....when beautiful morphs reach an affordable level, it draws new people into the market.

JonV

I think that prices will continue to drop for some of the low to mid grade examples of the Co-Doms that have started to flood the market. Prices will remain about the same for high grade examples. I think recessives are going to be all over the map in the coming year because all the people who were flooding the market with Co-Doms 4 years ago, now have their recessive projects up and running. Some will want high dollar, some will undercut the market.

Please keep in mind that there are collectors in this hobby who are willing to pay a premium price for a premium animal from a respected breeder. Those prices will, and should remain a little higher.

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Originally Posted by Jyson

One thing I think will be an interesting conversation, is do you think the prices on grade A pastels will increase? Why I ask this is because I have noticed that all the good pastels (grade A's) are being purchased like 25 min.s after the add goes up. Soo, with a high demand for them, is it possible that they will sustain their price range, and perhaps maybe even increase alil?

Just my :2cent:

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If I produce lemon pastels as nice as the ones I did last year, I will be pricing them higher than the price for "drab" pastels. If they don't sell - I don't mind at all - I'll keep 'em! :D

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

As for pastels, yeah grading may get an extra $25, but as I said, I've seen males for $50. Proven breeder males for $175. I sold my proven breeder spider for $500.

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When Winston (my adult male lemon) was on the BP.net table in Daytona, I was offered $1500 for him. He's not for sale, so it was easy to say no, but Karl said it was a good thing he wasn't there! LOL

All it takes is for some of these people who keep low balling the market to finally give up and decide they can't make any more money in a field to drive the prices back up. If you produce snakes and they don't sell for the price you want keep them. I have several friends who held back lots of sweet animals this year because they were not willing to give an animal away to make a quick buck. This year i may only have a few snakes for sale. I don't know what price i will put on them yet. I do know what a spider female will produce later. I do know that my females will not be sold for any less than what i am willing to sell them for. But i do know if I hold onto every animal i produce this year I won't be able to house those plus any 2010 offspring. So i will have to sell some. This means that i will have to sell them at or close 2 market price what ever that may be. I did see someone this year sell a cinny for 80 bucks. That does drive some people crazy but I did see it with my own eyes. The snake was skinny But it survived and the person who bought it I think resold it for more. I think quality is the question of the year. I think quality over quantity will win this year. I also see that some breeders may get out of breeding ball pythons due to the fact that there isn't enough money in it for them anymore. If it cost them more to feed there animals then what they make in sales of animals its only business to them. A true hobbiest will always try and breed on a limited basis. Maybe if all of us just cut back on production by 10 to 20% we could actually increase prices due to demand being higher. That is counting on everyone to do that though so it will never happen.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I have friends selling 08 male spiders for $125-150 and females for around $200. :(

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i saw a male spider for $125 in december 07
so i am sure you could find an 09 for $100
i got 2 spider females this year 1 08 for $250 1 07 $275
i know someone who sold 3 cinnys for $300
and 3 days later they were are a show for $225 each and didn't sell
the more there are for sale the cheaper they get

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

And I'm seeing proven albino males for $600.

A 450 gram male spider for $250 shipped.

Proven male pastel $225 shipped.

300 gram female Lav $3900 shipped.

Albino males $400 females $525 OBO

Pastel males $100 females $200

These are all posted ads that took me less than 5 minutes to find. A good friend of mine just got a 500 gram Enchi for $125 from a well-known breeder. Prices are FAALLLLLLING! :)

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Really, ok, i'll take 2.

The market for designer ball pythons (or anything for that matter) will undergo or experience negative pressure from the depression we are in; so 1) factoring in natural supply/demand pressure 2) coupled with the fact that people are spending more of their money on needs, rather than wants, the pricing pressure will be on a downward trend even more so...

…take any “luxury” or “disposable income” item and you will see these trends.

However, hard-core ball python people wont be able to tell the difference between a want and a need in this case.

BrandonsBalls

From what I can tell, the doms and codoms were falling very fast. The recessive are holding fairly steady. Rare combos( ex.double recessive)will come down as more breeders start producing them. That will take much longer.
The interest in rare ball pythons is growing at a rapid pace. I believe we will see an explosion as more people are able to afford a morph such as a spider or a pastel.
Now is a great time to get into breeding ball pythons.

Prices are falling and yes it may get frustrating seeing how low these snakes are going for but the plus to falling prices means you will soon see these morphs in pet stores, some are already carrying pastels, spiders, etc.

These retail shops will not be able to keep up with the amount of people purchasing these so if you have tons of females and can produce quantity then you will be good.

Yes there will still be a side of the market that deals with multiple gene morphs and top quality single genes but I really think in the long run it unfortunately is going to be about quantity and not quality.

Just my look at it

I still believe that there are other buyers out there, like myself, who are willing to pay more for superior quality. Yes, there will be breeders who will breed quantity to fill the niche of the pet stores and the lower quality animals (in looks) and then there will be some of us who wish to only produce the very best examples of each morph they work with through selective breeding - and I do believe that there are buyers for that niche as well.

People need to stop examining the price and be more interested in the quality of the animal....There are alot of jobbers out there buying large lots from larger breeders at a reduced cost and just marking the snakes up very little...I feel that there are just to many people producing ball pythons for the price trend to stop....Maybe with the price drop some will be discouraged and not invest into them now....I feel its no longer about the single mutation its all about the 3,4,5 and so on morphs rolled up into one snake...
Just my 2 cents..
Kevin Stoltz

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I still believe that there are other buyers out there, like myself, who are willing to pay more for superior quality. Yes, there will be breeders who will breed quantity to fill the niche of the pet stores and the lower quality animals (in looks) and then there will be some of us who wish to only produce the very best examples of each morph they work with through selective breeding - and I do believe that there are buyers for that niche as well.

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Thank you, Robin. This is exactly what I was trying to say with my post, but you put it much better than I did.

Personaly, I don't breed. I'm a collector, and all my guys are part of the family. Each time I get ready to add an new morph to our collection, I look for the best example of that morph avaliable. So far, I haven't had to look too much further than my favorite breeder (Big love, Adam), but even within his avaliable BPs, I look for the best he has ready at that time. And, I am alway willing to pay extra in order to get high quality.

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Originally Posted by BrandonsBalls

Really, ok, i'll take 2.

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These are posted prices. Just look and you will find them.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If I produce lemon pastels as nice as the ones I did last year, I will be pricing them higher than the price for "drab" pastels. If they don't sell - I don't mind at all - I'll keep 'em! :D

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Robin, I would buy a pastel from you at any price you think is fair for that animal. Great person, great snake keeper, with beautiful animals, a transaction with a snake breeder that has those qualities is priceless to me.

Which is also my point. When it boils down to it, I'ld rather pay for a 1500 "grade A" pastel, or 700 "grade A" cinnamon, then go and pay for a 150 spider or 100 pastel. Reasons why, because they are not a random impulse, or some project that I am racing to achieve.
They are pets, first and for most that I will be investing in.
Pets that I will be keeping for 20+ years, and they will also be producing babies that I will keep as well, so with that in mind I want high quality animals that will look nice, and produce beautiful babies that will grow into beautiful and stunning examples of whatever morph they are.

Also, I believe that normals are grossly underrated too. Beautiful normals can have just as much potential as most morphs, and (depending on the quality) can be a huge factor in selective breeding. And shouldn't be sold at the lowest price that you can think of, but at a price you think is appriopriate for the specific animal.

Along with that, imho the Kingsnake market is not the entire snake market. Not all breeders post their animals for sale up there, so in my opinion animals for sale on there (especially the lowest priced ones you can find) are not examples that indicates the official price range of morphs, but rather what price range those breeders are willing to go down to.

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Originally Posted by Jyson

imho the Kingsnake market is not the entire snake market.

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IMHO the Kingsnake market is the worst of the BP market. In a months time, I might see one snake I'd buy, from one person I would trust. Other than that, not so much. Too many Big Daddys and flippers on there for my taste.

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Originally Posted by Jyson

Which is also my point. When it boils down to it, I'ld rather pay for a 1500 "grade A" pastel, or 700 "grade A" cinnamon, then go and pay for a 150 spider or 100 pastel. Reasons why, because they are not a random impulse, or some project that I am racing to achieve.

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I totally agree. But this is not the thought of majority of the people buying. I'm picky about everything I have in my collection. I don't buy from a name just because of the name. I know some people do. I buy the best looking animal, for the amount I think is appropriate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jyson

They are pets, first and for most that I will be investing in.
Pets that I will be keeping for 20+ years, and they will also be producing babies that I will keep as well, so with that in mind I want high quality animals that will look nice, and produce beautiful babies that will grow into beautiful and stunning examples of whatever morph they are.

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Also agreed. I think anyone serious about their animals would feel the same way. I have animals in my collection that are pushing 15 years now. I had a kingsnake die this past season that was 15 years old. I raised her from a hatchling, have some of her kids and even great grand kids. Same goes with some of my chondros. I have a pair of chondros that are turning 14 this year. I have several generations of their kids and a couple of grand kids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jyson

Also, I believe that normals are grossly underrated too. Beautiful normals can have just as much potential as most morphs, and (depending on the quality) can be a huge factor in selective breeding. And shouldn't be sold at the lowest price that you can think of, but at a price you think is appriopriate for the specific animal.

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This is one that is hard to grasp. Although I think normals should be held at a higher value than they are, IMHO, it is impossible for me to compete with imports. When I go to a show and have my normal spider/pastel/cinny sibs for $50, do you think people are going to pay attention when they can get an import for $10-20? The reality is, NO. They don't care where it came from. They want the cheapest PET they can find. Now, sometimes these people come back a few months later because their bargain animal didn't do so well.....even then, when this happens most often they move to a different animal all together. I would love to sell my normals, but it just doesn't happen.....especially for $50. Why wouldn't someone just buy a het albino for that price?....that is what they are selling for. Normal or het albino for $50?....which would you buy?

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Originally Posted by Jyson

Along with that, imho the Kingsnake market is not the entire snake market. Not all breeders post their animals for sale up there, so in my opinion animals for sale on there (especially the lowest priced ones you can find) are not examples that indicates the official price range of morphs, but rather what price range those breeders are willing to go down to.

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Again, I somewhat agree with this, but not all.....there is more to it. KS is not the entire market, but it does have THE MOST TRAFFIC of any classified site on the internet. The biggest and most well-known breeders advertise there. I will disagree with you on the price range. KS definitely dictates the official price range of the market. It's the first place most people look when window shopping. As I said in previous post, there are prices even lower than the lowest on KS often found at shows. Sometimes they are higher. It depends on the seller and the show.

This is an ever-growing trend. More people are selling their collections because of declining prices. Will this make prices go up?....probably not. It has happened with just about every snake I can think of. It will take a very large portion of Ball python breeders, selling their collections, to put prices to a sustainable level. I saw it with Burms, Jungle Carpets, Brazilian Rainbows, etc. They reach a point where breeder think they aren't making enough money and they sell off. When the huge selloff happens, potential buyers begin rethinking their plan of buying those animals. It has taken Jungles 10 years to get back to prices they are selling for now......same with Brazilian Rainbows. More people are working with Balls than there were with either of those. It will take much longer for prices to level, if they ever do. Again, I'm not trying to get anyone worked up. I'm just being realistic. If you guys can sell your normals for $50, that is great. Don't count on it for every animal. I've sold a couple for $400+. I used to get annoyed about people speculating market prices, but it's just too easy to see these days. It will not get any better in the near future.

I'll ask again, what is a fair price for a Pewter 100% het Pied male? I have the only ones for sale and they are all in the 400 gram range.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...tpiedmale2.jpg

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Originally Posted by KMS

People need to stop examining the price and be more interested in the quality of the animal....There are alot of jobbers out there buying large lots from larger breeders at a reduced cost and just marking the snakes up very little...I feel that there are just to many people producing ball pythons for the price trend to stop....Maybe with the price drop some will be discouraged and not invest into them now....I feel its no longer about the single mutation its all about the 3,4,5 and so on morphs rolled up into one snake...
Just my 2 cents..
Kevin Stoltz

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X2

As Marc Bailey said on his Reptile Radio, the doomsayers have been out there since day one....and he seems to do just fine! :)

JonV

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Originally Posted by Slim

IMHO the Kingsnake market is the worst of the BP market. In a months time, I might see one snake I'd buy, from one person I would trust. Other than that, not so much. Too many Big Daddys and flippers on there for my taste.

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Some of the biggest and most well respected breeders advertise on KS. KS is the reality of the market. I do agree with you on the Big Daddys and flippers though. These are the people that really kill the market.....but most flippers get their stuff dirt cheap from other breeders. If you see a flipper selling spiders for $175, how much do you think they paid for them?....probably no more than $100.

Without reading every post here...this is my opinion:

The Problem is that too many people are going for the quantity and not for the quality. Too many people are searching the net for the lowest priced Pastel. But who is really searching for the best looking? I think it is what it is because 75% are only in this game because of the money they try to get out of it. Producing Ball Pythons. Thats what its all about. There should be more love for this snakes and more eyes for the beauties among the morphs. It is all about having pastels, fires, mojos, lav`s, lessers and butters, but it should be more about having beautiful and interesting animals. I`m searching for the best looking snakes not the cheapest. I hope that there will be a change in some time...selective breeding and not power feeding! ( Its not about the rhyme ;) )

Best wishes from Germany, Sito

I know I said I wouldn't chime in again, but I just can't help myself.

#1) Brandon... This is NOT the advertising section. So please stop trying to push your snakes in this thread.

#2) How you can consider kingsnake to dictate the market prices is beyond me. Is it the largest online site? Yep. HOWEVER, online sales represent probably the smallest % of reptile purchases! There are hundreds of snakes sold at pet shops for every one sold online. Just like anything else, online classified prices do not dictate retail prices.

#3) You have no idea who your talking to when it comes to sales, negotiations, and pricing. Yes there will always be bulk deals, and animals sold for exceptionally low prices despite the going rate because of the particular situation. That is not what this thread is about. We are talking about market prices... Averages.... The bottom lines that effect the majority of the people the majority of the time.

#4)At the last show I attended, I had the opportunity to purchase a male spider for $125. That does NOT mean that spiders are going for $125. The going price is still $250 -$300 for an average example of the morph.

#5) you choosing to give your normals away does not change the fact that the going rate for a normal hatchling is still around $50. Can they be found in online clasifieds or at a show for less? YEP. Does that mean that someone paying $50 at a petshop is getting ripped off? No. It is the going price.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I know I said I wouldn't chime in again, but I just can't help myself.

#1) Brandon... This is NOT the advertising section. So please stop trying to push your snakes in this thread... It is getting really old.

#2) How you can consider kingsnake to dictate the market prices is beyond me. Is it the largest online site? Yep. HOWEVER, online sales represent probably the smallest % of reptile purchases! There are hundreds of snakes sold at pet shops for every one sold online. Just like anything else, online classified prices do not dictate retail prices.

#3) You have no idea who your talking to when it comes to sales, negotiations, and pricing. Yes there will always be bulk deals, and animals sold for exceptionally low prices despite the going rate because of the particular situation. That is not what this thread is about. We are talking about market prices... Averages.... The bottom lines that effect the majority of the people the majority of the time.

#4)At the last show I attended, I had the opportunity to purchase a male spider for $125. That does NOT mean that spiders are going for $125. The going price is still $250 -$300 for an average example of the morph.

#5) you choosing to give your normals away does not change the fact that the going rate for a normal hatchling is still around $50. Can they be found in online clasifieds or at a show for less? YEP. Does that mean that someone paying $50 at a petshop is getting ripped off? No. It is the going price.

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Mikey, if I was advertising my animals I would have done so in the classifieds. I'm not trying to sell them here. All I asked for was an appropriate market value. Avoid the question if you want....that is all it was.

If you think there are hundreds of animals sold a pet shops for every one sold on the internet you are fooling yourself. Yes I sell to pet shops, but 99% of my business has been from internet sales for the last 10 years.....period.

Yes I do know what I am talking about. I'm not the only one that is seeing it. I guess my eyes are just open. If you are paying $250-300 for spiders you are throwing your money away. What is advertised and what they are sold for are two different things. You are right, classified prices are not the same as retail prices. Retail prices are usually 50% higher because they are purchased at internet prices. Cheap animals are not just availabe in bulk deals.

I guess we are not in the same market. As I said, my market is everywhere. I see prices all over the map, all the time. These are MARKET PRICES. The market will always dictate prices, not the seller. If animals are not selling at $250, the market price is not $250. Show me some normal hatchlings for $50 with no added genetics. Those are retail prices, not market prices. Market price and pet shop price are not the same. So yes, if you own a pet shop and you sell normals, then you can get $50 for them. Most ask $80-100. Can I sell them for that? The answer is plain and simple.....NO.

Again, I'll stand by that bet if you care to take it. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. I was just supplying my opinion by answering the original question.

Peace;)