Do all morphs get "head wobble"?

We are looking to buy our first morph, dont really know much about all the kinds of morphs and what to look for. But i have seen and herd that certain morphs get the wobble and that is somthing i would like to avoid.

Nope, the only morph with the known genetic head wobble is the spider, and any of their combinations. Hope that helps some! Good luck with getting into the morphs and I hope you really enjoy it when the time comes.

Yup, ALL spiders and ALL spider morphs wobble. Whether it's obvious at birth, or it shows itself at a year of age, they ALL wobble.

I've heard some woma's do as well but I believe that's it (I'm referring to the regular woma - I haven't heard of this with NERD's Hidden Gene Woma which is a completely different morph). It varies though. I haven't noticed my spider wobbling at all. If she does, it isn't noticeable. Even when she feeds, she strikes and coils just like any other ball python.

My spider is an '07 he doesn't have a wobble

Keep in mind these snakes can live 40 Years and since the Spider genetics are fairly weak, I can definitely see them developing it over time. Some show it at birth and some display it down the road, but it doesn't really affect anything as far as personality or the way they act.

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

I've heard some woma's do as well but I believe that's it (I'm referring to the regular woma - I haven't heard of this with NERD's Hidden Gene Woma which is a completely different morph). It varies though. I haven't noticed my spider wobbling at all. If she does, it isn't noticeable. Even when she feeds, she strikes and coils just like any other ball python.

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Thank you for bringing this up, it is true that some Woma Ball Pythons wobble, but it is not believed to be genetic like the Spider. However it is still unknown why it happens with some Womas and not others. Also, you are correct that there are no issues with the Hidden Gene Woma, just the regular Woma, the only known issue with the Hidden Gene Woma is that their super, the Pearl, fails to thrive.

There was actually a thread on here recently that NERD has some Pearls that are okay now but not sure if they did it by outcrossing or what.

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"My spider is an '07 he doesn't have a wobble "

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Yeah, I hear that all the time. I've never seen nor produced a non-wobbling spider (over time) and I think I've produced and seen enough to confidently say that you are either lying or mistaken.
If you in fact have a spider that doesn't wobble, congratulations, it's a one of a kind and is worth roughly 14 million dollars.
EDIT: I think some people see "wobble" and think that if the animals head doesn't vibrate or shake, then it's unaffected.
The "wobble" that spiders are so known for is not just a head shake persay; it includes twisting the head upside down, corkscrewing, stargazing, and other "abnormal" characteristics that are not seen in "normal" morphs.

I have heard of a lot of people saying "my spider doesn't wobble". I have a beautiful spider. He doesn't wobble unless he is excited (mating season, holding, etc) or unless its late in the evening. Also, he doesn't strike. He eats F/T I have to put it in the bin with him and leave it in there, he goes right up to it and eats it. I've never seen him coil, or strike. Spider's have a wobble, regardless of the LINE or the BREEDER. Any breeder who tells you that their LINE has no Spider's with a wobble is either lying or really uneducated. Some Spiders are worse than others, some are like mine (only certain times, situations) some start wobbling as hatchlings, some later on. Any more info on that Pearl that NERD had? I saw someone mentioned it up in one of the posts.

all spiders and spider morphs have it genetically, but any snake can get it although its rare

I was really nervous about the wobble, as my first BP is a bumblebee. He's fine most of the time, I really only see it right after he eats. I guess because he's all worked up over it. He did strike and miss completely the other night, but that's unusual for him. 95% of the time, he's perfectly normal, and that other 5% hasn't been a real issue yet.


I guess what I'm trying to say is I wouldn't let the wobble scare me off of spiders. Spider combos are among my favorite morphs, and as long as the snake isn't flailing around constantly and having trouble eating I don't see the wobble as a huge issue.

I'm more nervous about the kinking in the caramel albinos, honestly. XD

my female norm has a wobble after she gets done eating and when i put my male in the tank with her.

I've never seen a spider that did not exhibit 'spider-y' movement. Whether it's a wobble, head tilt, corkscrewing.. they've all exhibited oddball behavior.

My spider's wobble progressed to the extreme over time.

I'm surprised to hear some other morphs CAN get it, but spiders have it at birth no matter what anyone tells you.

ALL Spiders wobble. Whether it is extreme or almost non-existant. Some even kill Spider babies for an extreme wobble, it is quite sad since it doesn't really bother their ability to eat or breed. From what I have seen, Spiders are some of the more aggressive eaters and breeders.

A wobble isn't necessarily a trait that should put you off. I find it rather endearing. You should choose whatever morph you like best, then buy it from a reputable breeder. :)

Spider "Head Wobble": This term refers to a trait that virtually all spiders show. In most cases, a spider will show slight movement, or wobbling of the head when the snake holds its head off the ground. In more severe cases, the snake may seem to lose orientation when it is excited or agitated. Nearly all spiders showing this trait live normal, healthy lives. It seems that the trait is just something we have to live with to have this beautiful pattern in our collections.

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Originally Posted by ShockBunny

I was really nervous about the wobble, as my first BP is a bumblebee. He's fine most of the time, I really only see it right after he eats. I guess because he's all worked up over it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I wouldn't let the wobble scare me off of spiders. Spider combos are among my favorite morphs, and as long as the snake isn't flailing around constantly and having trouble eating I don't see the wobble as a huge issue.

I'm more nervous about the kinking in the caramel albinos, honestly. XD

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If you are 'nervous' about ANY animal, you shouldn't get it. just because it isn't flailing around constantly doesn't mean much. It's knowing that certain animals have that problem, then trying to get the odds of them having that gene when you breed them.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

A wobble isn't necessarily a trait that should put you off. I find it rather endearing. You should choose whatever morph you like best, then buy it from a reputable breeder. :)

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Are you saying that you think it is cute when an animal has a neurological disorder? Spiders have involuntary muscle movement. Its similar to Parkensins. I don't think that is 'endearing'.

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Originally Posted by kyser/wrx

Nearly all spiders showing this trait live normal, healthy lives. It seems that the trait is just something we have to live with to have this beautiful pattern in our collections.

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People never have to have a morph in their collections. I wouldn't care if spider ball pythons went 'extinct', or nobody bred them anymore.

If I made a morph and knew it had problems, I wouldn't sell any. I have never had caramel bp, because it has kinks, spiders have muscle control problems, and I never had certain leopard geckos because they have problems. Enigmas are similar to spiders, and murphy patternless are known for infertality.
People are never required to buy any certain morph. Even if I liked spider combos alot more I wouldn't buy one. Pretend it never existed.
It's not that hard.

Your question is pretty much answered... But goodluck with your first Morph... And dont be scared by a little wobble if you pick a spider or a morph from a spider. I have a Bumble bee and a spider I kinda like the wobble... Gives them character, And doesnt effect their eatting, striking, ect...

My female spider is one of my favorite snakes I own. She's a little quirky and such a sweetheart. Her wobble is only apparent during feeding times, but other than that she gets the head tilt occasionally and that's about it. She rights herself immediately after being flipped over and doesn't corkscrew, and is one of my best eaters. She'll eat the largest size rat possible for her size in half the time it takes my bigger boys. I just love her, don't be afraid of the wobble. IMO, there's plenty of "traits" that people knowingly breed with and (depending on the trait of course) it usually turns out fine. A slight "wobble" doesn't concern me when there's a lot worse things that could be bred into this hobby...

I, myself, really want a bumble bee. I was always worried a little about the wobble too, but people seem to get along fine with it.

And don't let the "holier than thou" types run you off or chastise you for owning/wanting one.

That snakes going to be born wether you like it or not, if you give it it's best possible life, then what harm are you doing. It's no different than owning and breeding an animal for its pretty color or what have you. If you can hold a wild animal captive and that doesn't bother your conscience, it shouldn't matter what is going on with the animal. If you get my drift.

I understand the hesitation. I understand the comment about not breeding spiders too. I get it. They have been breed they are out there and so it is a moot point. The real question isn't about wobbles it is do you want a spider or not. Look at Pinstripes a similar looking morph very nice and wobble free. If you want a spider you will not get a free of wobble one but you can get one that has a slight wobble. Mine like others have posted has a wobble but usually only when over stimulated he is fine handling until he gets stressed and is fine feeding unless he sits too long or misses the first strike. It isn't a problem for us (him and I) but sever wobbles can be very problematic. With spiders I'd always advise buying from a person face to face so you can see and handle the snake, understanding that that is very stressful situation for a snake so a spider slightly odd is likely ok for now anyway.

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Originally Posted by MarkyMcFly

I was always worried a little about the wobble too, but people seem to get along fine with it.

And don't let the "holier than thou" types run you off or chastise you for owning/wanting one.

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Were you talking about what I said?
people don't have to "get along fine with it". All you have to do is take care of the animal. The animal lives with the problem.

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Originally Posted by MarkyMcFly

It's no different than owning and breeding an animal for its pretty color or what have you. If you can hold a wild animal captive and that doesn't bother your conscience, it shouldn't matter what is going on with the animal. If you get my drift.

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It IS very different than owning holding a wild animal captive. Obviously, if it's a spider, its captive bred (not wild). Nobody said they were keeping wild animals captive. If they did, they might miss the wild at the most. Not have neurological disorders. Your drift doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by MarkyMcFly

That snakes going to be born wether you like it or not, if you give it it's best possible life, then what harm are you doing.

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"whether you like it or not". If you don't like it, don't buy it. Let the breeder or another customer buy it to "give it it's best possible life". I was saying the reasons I wouldn't breed a spider. Other people might breed them, but not me.

Nobody is forced to breed anything. People don't have enough self control to decide whether or not it is worth it to breed an animal for patterns, or for the linked problems. If you can deal with animals possibly having problems, you shouldn't be owning animals.

All of our spiders wobble to some degree and I have a woma whose wobble is becoming more noticeable as she grows.

I don't think it bothers them too much, and they all seem to have cute personalities.

If you're getting a morph to breed, it's probably also worth mentioning that many caramels hatch kinked. Not all caramels are kinked, so it's easy to find a gorgeous, unkinked caramel. But it seems like most caramels have at least some potential to produce a kinked baby, regardless of line or prior outcrossing.

Honestly, most morphs don't have known deformities or neurological ticks. Pastels, ghosts, pinstripes, pieds, regular albinos, leucistics, axanthics, genetic stripes, etc. all seem to produce healthy, basically flawless animals. Cinnamons and black pastels may show some "duck-billing" in the supers, but that's pretty subtle compared to kinking or the wobbles. There are some questions about a few of the rarer genes, but those are likely out of the price range for a first morph anyway.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but if you are going to ever breed your morphs (even if the morph itself has no issues like wobbling/kinks/etc) there will always be a risk of hatching deformed offspring that don't thrive or must be euthanized. It is, unfortunately, a risk that comes with breeding any animal.

Good luck choosing your future morph :gj:

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Originally Posted by mykee

Yeah, I hear that all the time. I've never seen nor produced a non-wobbling spider (over time) and I think I've produced and seen enough to confidently say that you are either lying or mistaken.
If you in fact have a spider that doesn't wobble, congratulations, it's a one of a kind and is worth roughly 14 million dollars.
EDIT: I think some people see "wobble" and think that if the animals head doesn't vibrate or shake, then it's unaffected.
The "wobble" that spiders are so known for is not just a head shake persay; it includes twisting the head upside down, corkscrewing, stargazing, and other "abnormal" characteristics that are not seen in "normal" morphs.

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That's a little harsh. I do believe that some people "think" that their spider doesn't wobble, but they aren't quite in tune with what to look for. I've got a female spider, that if I put her in your hands, you'd say "oh look - she doesn't wobble".

But she does. You have to really be paying attention to see it. I also maintain that all spiders have the wobble. Other breeders who have also worked extensively with this mutation would agree with me.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

Are you saying that you think it is cute when an animal has a neurological disorder? Spiders have involuntary muscle movement. Its similar to Parkensins. I don't think that is 'endearing'.

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It's really not all that similar to Parkinson's disease. The spider wobble doesn't usually affect their quality of life, and snakes don't suffer emotions like embarrassment. I have hand tremors that DO affect my quality of life, and yes, I find the spider wobble endearing. Problem? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

It's really not all that similar to Parkinson's disease. The spider wobble doesn't usually affect their quality of life, and snakes don't suffer emotions like embarrassment. I have hand tremors that DO affect my quality of life, and yes, I find the spider wobble endearing. Problem? :rolleyes:

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I wouldn't want to see a pet I have constantly looking like it's head is vibrating. People don't know if it affects their quality of life. Try moving your head back and forth that much for a few minutes.
I know someone that had to force feed a spider it's whole life (so far) because it couldn't strike straight. What do you mean by endearing?

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I wouldn't want to see a pet I have constantly looking like it's head is vibrating. People don't know if it affects their quality of life. Try moving your head back and forth that much for a few minutes.
I know someone that had to force feed a spider it's whole life (so far) because it couldn't strike straight. What do you mean by endearing?

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That's why it's awesome that there are so many morphs out there to work with. YOU don't have to work with spiders if you don't want to or have one in your collection.

However, whether intentional or not, you're presenting yourself a wee bit arrogantly, as though you're trying to convince everyone to adopt your moral compass.

This is not a new debate or discussion. There are those who, like you, feel very strongly about the spider mutation and don't want to work with it. Then there are others who appreciate and have them in their collection that don't see the classic signs of stress with their animals that are our only barometer to judge whether it bothers the animal or not.

A stressed animal won't feed, a stressed animal will have a suppressed immune system and become more likely to come down with a RI or other illness than an un-stressed animal, a stressed animal won't breed. Because healthy spiders are eating and breeding in hundreds of keeper's care, one can draw the conclusion that this condition does not bother the animal.

You are able to cite one example where the wobble/spin was so severe that your friend had to force/assist feed it it's entire life. I can cite hundreds of examples of thriving animals, just here on the forums.

It's fine that you have decided it's not something you are willing to work with. I have decided that kinking in caramels is not something that "I" am willing to work with. But I don't think it's my place to try to convince others to do the same. I prefer instead to just focus on my own collection and not worry about what Tom, Dick and Harry are doing.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That's why it's awesome that there are so many morphs out there to work with. YOU don't have to work with spiders if you don't want to or have one in your collection.

However, whether intentional or not, you're presenting yourself a wee bit arrogantly, as though you're trying to convince everyone to adopt your moral compass.

A stressed animal won't feed, a stressed animal will have a suppressed immune system and become more likely to come down with a RI or other illness than an un-stressed animal, a stressed animal won't breed. Because healthy spiders are eating and breeding in hundreds of keeper's care, one can draw the conclusion that this condition does not bother the animal.
I didn't think they were stressed, it's just like any other morph but they sometimes have problems striking.
You are able to cite one example where the wobble/spin was so severe that your friend had to force/assist feed it it's entire life. I can cite hundreds of examples of thriving animals, just here on the forums.
The same breeder said that if you look at any spider at 3-4 in the morning, it will be upside down. The other morphs won't.
It's fine that you have decided it's not something you are willing to work with. I have decided that kinking in caramels is not something that "I" am willing to work with. But I don't think it's my place to try to convince others to do the same. I prefer instead to just focus on my own collection and not worry about what Tom, Dick and Harry are doing.

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Have you decided not to breed spiders, or caramel albinos? I think if people actually really like spiders for some reason, more than other morphs, it would be better at least than buying it to breed just for the expensive ones to sell.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

Have you decided not to breed spiders, or caramel albinos? I think if people actually really like spiders for some reason, more than other morphs, it would be better at least than buying it to breed just for the expensive ones to sell.

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I don't know who this same breeder is, but my three spiders are not upside down in the middle of the night. I don't sleep well, I get up in the middle of the night and check my snakes.

I have decided not to breed caramel albinos for my own personal reasons, but I won't judge other who decide they want to work with them. I will be breeding spiders into some crosses.

All of my breedings are carefully planned to produce animals for my number one customer - ME. If I want to create a particular cross, and I need a spider to do so, then I will breed my spiders as I work towards that goal.

Regarding stress. OK, I concede that you didn't say stressed, you said it affected their quality of life. How do you tangibly measure their quality of life? Other than a little wobble when excited, my three eat (aggressively, I might add), breed, grow, have not ever had a RI or other illness (knock wood). They are also the three most inquisitive of all my collection.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I don't know who this same breeder is
http://coldblooded-novelties.com/ Frank told me that at the last expo when I was talking to him about the spiders having problems.

All of my breedings are carefully planned to produce animals for my number one customer - ME. If I want to create a particular cross, and I need a spider to do so, then I will breed my spiders as I work towards that goal.
That's what I meant. If someone is breeding them just to sell the expensive babies, it would be worse than breeding them because they like the morph. I just don't think that there are many people who couldn't do without spiders.

Regarding stress. OK, I concede that you didn't say stressed, you said it affected their quality of life. How do you tangibly measure their quality of life? I think a good way is to see if a wild one would do it. If a wild one wouldn't do it, it is not necessary or helpful to the snake in any way. I think completely mutating their colors and patterns is enough. Doing as much as to mutate their personality or behaviors is very different. Changing pigment cells is different than affecting the way their brains function.

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I think a good way is to see if a wild one would do it. If a wild one wouldn't do it, it is not necessary or helpful to the snake in any way.

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The first and only one to be found and brought in from Africa did it, and survived in the wild before he was found and imported.

Also spiders are direct descendants of this original spider, and one of the most outcrossed mutations.

NO ONE bred FOR the wobble or personality - it has been and always will be - part of the mutation.

So in answer to your question, a wild spider did in fact thrive in Africa with this condition.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I wouldn't want to see a pet I have constantly looking like it's head is vibrating.

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This is not what spiders do at all. Sometimes it happens, but it is not a constant vibration in the head. Sometimes it seems to be an inner ear issue, balance issue, tremors, corkscrewing, or any number of odd movements. More often than not, it is simply a slight "head tilt" when the "wobble" is exhibited.

As for "quality of life".. I'm of the opinion that if a snake eats, lives, and breeds, it is certainly thriving. I wouldn't tell a human with a genetic disorder that they shouldn't have children, that's up to them. I'm certainly not going to say it is 'wrong' for someone to breed for the spider trait in ball pythons either. Frankly I think that these animals should have even more of a reason to get some sex than your typical pet BP.

That said:

I have no interest in the spider trait. You guys who like it can keep it to yourselves. I do personally find the wobble to be just as distasteful as, say, poor coloration.. but no more so.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The first and only one to be found and brought in from Africa did it, and survived in the wild before he was found and imported.

Also spiders are direct descendants of this original spider, and one of the most outcrossed mutations.

NO ONE bred FOR the wobble or personality - it has been and always will be - part of the mutation.

So in answer to your question, a wild spider did in fact thrive in Africa with this condition.

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How old was that imported spider? If it's so common to have a wild mutation 'thriving', why don't they have them from the wild more often? In certain areas of florida people sometimes find an albino rattlesnake. There aren't more than one, and they probably won't ever find more than that. The wild one from Africa might not have had the neurological problems as much as some of the captive bred ones do. And if it did, why aren't imported morphs very common?

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

This is not what spiders do at all. Sometimes it happens, but it is not a constant vibration in the head. Sometimes it seems to be an inner ear issue, balance issue, tremors, corkscrewing, or any number of odd movements. More often than not, it is simply a slight "head tilt" when the "wobble" is exhibited.
I just saw it at the last reptile show I was at. It was in a clear display box. For the 15 minutes I was talking to that vendor, the spider constantly vibrated its head. I don't care what you call it. Moving like that is NOT natural. Finding a wild mutation isn't natural. I can find corn snakes outside. You can find some slightly different phases, like Miami phase, but never albino, anery, snow, motley, lavender, candycane, pewter, or any other morphs.
As for "quality of life".. I'm of the opinion that if a snake eats, lives, and breeds, it is certainly thriving. I wouldn't tell a human with a genetic disorder that they shouldn't have children, that's up to them. I'm certainly not going to say it is 'wrong' for someone to breed for the spider trait in ball pythons either. Frankly I think that these animals should have even more of a reason to get some sex than your typical pet BP.
You changed these two words. There is a difference. I don't think people should have kids if they know they will pass on the problem. They obviously wouldn't care about their kids, since they knew they would have the problem. It's similar to people without enough money, living in a country in poverty, having 10 kids with half of them still living, but somehow they don't understand what they are putting their kids through. It's repeating a cycle. The same thing with a genetic disorder.
It's partly wrong for them to breed spiders. I think that if someone doesn't care about the animals having ANY problems, they shouldn't be breeding them.
That said:

I have no interest in the spider trait. You guys who like it can keep it to yourselves. I do personally find the wobble to be just as distasteful as, say, poor coloration.. but no more so.
The animals don't care what color they are, as much as how they have to live with that problem. People on here call it a problem if animals have problems, why would someone breed them? Aren't there enough morphs to pick from without problems?

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Genetics Breeder- Hey your arguments are all opinion based, not to mention hijacking this thread that has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about....soooo....stop please. Make your own thread about bashing spiders and people who breed them if you have an itch to argue with people. Seriously though...

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

Genetics Breeder- Hey your arguments are all opinion based, not to mention hijacking this thread that has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about....soooo....stop please. Make your own thread about bashing spiders and people who breed them if you have an itch to argue with people. Seriously though...

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What did I say that was opinion based? The first person was talking about spiders vibrating their heads, and I was writing about that. I was also answering when other people quoted what I wrote, and seeing that your first listed snake in your signature is a bumblebee, it seems like you're trying to argue about owning them since I said that I don't like animals with problems. I'm not 'bashing' anyone or anything, and I don't have 'an itch to argue'. I was making a point.

All of your arguments are opinion based - your opinion of their quality of life, your opinion that they should not be bred....etc.

Why can't you just agree that YOU will not work with spiders, and let others decide for themselves if the wobble is something they are willing to work with or not? It appears that your "proving a point" isn't so much about "proving a point" as it is trying to convince people that your opinion is the only opinion and therefore, no one should choose to work with spiders.

You even did so on another thread where the person was deciding between a spider and a pinstripe, arguing that the pinstripe didn't wobble, so it was the obvious choice.

EVERYTHING you said was either opinionated, "what if" based, worst case senario, or hearsay. its fine if you don't want to deal with spiders, and im sure everybody gets that now. the fact that YOU started breaking down people's reply's and responding, as others put it, "arrogantly" or with a "holier than thou" attitude, plus the fact that you even RESPONDED with a quote of mine, disagreeing with what I said tells me that you actually DO want to argue. All i'm saying is the name of the thread was "Do all morphs get 'head wobble' and you posts are NOT on point with the topic. Your posts are pretty much coming off as "I don't like spiders and wouldn't breed spiders (which is fine), and if you breed spiders, you pretty much don't care about the quality of life for you snake (which is not fine, in my opinion.) "

And, yes I do have a bumblebee, and he is a high quality bumblebee with very slight wobble that most people wouldnt notice. I never said anything about my snake though, so I'm not sure why that matters. With or without the spider gene in my collection, my opinion is my opinion, and is rarely put out there unless it is asked for, or if something is needed to be said. I suggest you do the same-give your opinion when its relevant.
If people wanted to know who approved of spider breeding and who doesn't, they'd make a thread about it.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

All of your arguments are opinion based - your opinion of their quality of life, your opinion that they should not be bred....etc.
I think quality of life is an animal living happily. The people that posted above thought it meant that it was staying alive (eating, breeding, and growing)
Why can't you just agree that YOU will not work with spiders, and let others decide for themselves if the wobble is something they are willing to work with or not? It appears that your "proving a point" isn't so much about "proving a point" as it is trying to convince people that your opinion is the only opinion and therefore, no one should choose to work with spiders.
I already agreed that I wouldn't work with spiders, and I don't care if other people do. It's when they 'pretend' or 'lie' that the spider problems aren't as bad that it annoys me.
You even did so on another thread where the person was deciding between a spider and a pinstripe, arguing that the pinstripe didn't wobble, so it was the obvious choice.
That's not arguing. I said it wouldn't have problems if it was a pin. Other people said that also. EVERYONE else said that they would also get the pinstripe, and the person that started the thread was asking for oppinions. They ended up deciding to get the pinstripe. Go read the thread if you want.

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You even said that a person cant say the quality of life isn't affected by the wobble, so where do you get off thinking that you can decide if it does or not? that's what i want to know. and where do you get off saying that if you can live with your animals having this "problem", then you shouldn't be breeding? and then deny saying it or act like you don't know what we are talking about? smh....

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

EVERYTHING you said was either opinionated, "what if" based, worst case senario, or hearsay.
facts-
ALL spiders heads' wobble
some breeders don't take care of their animals
the first poster was talking about morphs heads' wobbling
quality of life is more than if an animal eats, grows, and breeds
You wrote that everything I said was 'either opinionated, "what if" based, worst case senario, or hearsay.'
Quality of life-
noun
your personal satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with the cultural or intellectual conditions under which you live (as distinct from material comfort); "the new art museum is expected to improve the quality of life"


its fine if you don't want to deal with spiders, and im sure everybody gets that now. the fact that YOU started breaking down people's reply's and responding, as others put it, "arrogantly" or with a "holier than thou" attitude, plus the fact that you even RESPONDED with a quote of mine, disagreeing with what I said tells me that you actually DO want to argue. All i'm saying is the name of the thread was "Do all morphs get 'head wobble' and you posts are NOT on point with the topic. Your posts are pretty much coming off as "I don't like spiders and wouldn't breed spiders (which is fine),

and if you breed spiders, you pretty much don't care about the quality of life for you snake (which is not fine, in my opinion.) "
I actually said that if you KNOW that all spiders you hatch will have the problem, and you pretend/lie that it's not as bad or isn't existent, you don't care about the quality of life.

And, yes I do have a bumblebee, and he is a high quality bumblebee with very slight wobble that most people wouldnt notice.
You still don't seem to realize. It's not if MOST PEOPLE notice the wobble, it matters if the snake does.
I never said anything about my snake though, so I'm not sure why that matters.
It seems like you are trying to make my sound bad instead of admitting the problems with spiders, affecting their quality of life.
With or without the spider gene in my collection, my opinion is my opinion, and is rarely put out there unless it is asked for, or if something is needed to be said. I suggest you do the same-give your opinion when its relevant.
If people wanted to know who approved of spider breeding and who doesn't, they'd make a thread about it.

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I quoted so that you would know that I was saying it about what you said, and it's easier to re-read what I was talking about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

If you can deal with animals possibly having problems, you shouldn't be owning animals.

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Actually this is what you said. Not what you said you said.

and you can "break down" and nitpick all you want but you are missing the big picture here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

You even said that a person cant say the quality of life isn't affected by the wobble, so where do you get off thinking that you can decide if it does or not? that's what i want to know.
I said that it WAS affected by the wobble. Read all of MY posts.
and where do you get off saying that if you can live with your animals having this "problem", then you shouldn't be breeding?
Yes, I said that I don't think people care about the animals as much if they can breed one, knowing it will have lower quality of life.
and then deny saying it or act like you don't know what we are talking about?
When did I deny saying that? You can read ALL my posts if you want. I didn't change what I wrote.
smh....
?

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the fact that you keep speaking for the snakes like you are there official representative and you are the spider snake whisperer and know exactly what's going on with them when nothing you say is from experience is really annoying as well. so please take my first advice and stop posting in this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

Actually this is what you said. Not what you said you said.

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That makes no sense. I wrote that more than one time. If you don't care, or can live with, breeding animals with genetic problems, I don't think you should be breeding them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

and you can "break down" and nitpick all you want but you are missing the big picture here.
I'm quoting and writing below what people said, so it's easier to see what goes with what.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

the fact that you keep speaking for the snakes like you are there official representative and you are the spider snake whisperer and know exactly what's going on with them when nothing you say is from experience is really annoying as well.
You're right. Nothing is from experience. It's common sense. Animal with genetic disorder, or possible extreme problems and neurological disorders= Do not breed
so please take my first advice and stop posting in this thread.
Then you keep repeating this. Why do you want me to stop posting on this thread? Can't you just go to a different page on you're computer? Don't read it if you don't like it.

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