Barcelona, Spain Bans bull fights- Opinions

Alright, so I read this article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100728/...pphu-container


Here's what I wrote on it (I rarely bother on yahoo comments since most posters are.. comical to say the least but I said "hey, why not?" lol)- started out with vegetarian/vegan viewpoint since it seemed a lot were backing this ban and the example worked well imo:

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For those that are vegetarians/vegans here:
The thing is, you don't eat animals but I do. However, I won't force you to eat meat (and I have no right to)- why should anyone have the right to take away what I eat?

Apply this to bull fighting and many other things as well-
I do not support animal cruelty, but I do not support outright bans of common practices or traditions.
However, I do support responsible regulation/ comprimise, not a ban in favor of one extreme vs another.

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To clarify my point I had to write this since some people couldn't grasp my point and instead said I either "made no sense" or "I am stupid" :rolleyes::

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For example not being allowed to draw blood or inflict injury upon the animal. How they'd do it after such a regulation was in place is up to them not us.

My point is that comprimise would have worked best here.

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Anyway I'm just looking for opinions on this for fun so let's keep it friendly folks :)

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Originally Posted by bad-one

Alright, so I read this article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100728/...pphu-container


Here's what I wrote on it (I rarely bother on yahoo comments since most posters are.. comical to say the least but I said "hey, why not?" lol)- started out with vegetarian/vegan viewpoint since it seemed a lot were backing this ban and the example worked well imo:



To clarify my point I had to write this since some people couldn't grasp my point and instead said I either "made no sense" or "I am stupid" :rolleyes::


Anyway I'm just looking for opinions on this for fun so let's keep it friendly folks :)

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My first reaction is... banning bull fights in Spain is like banning surfing at the beach. I mean, Spain and bull fights are practically synonymous. But, in a world that continues to bow to political correctness, it does not surprise me.

i'm against animal cruelty period. i see bullfighting as cruel to those bulls because they're teased/ tortured before they're finally put through a slow death...and all for "sport".
"let's see how bad we can piss off this bull before we finally kill it."
and even then, death is a blessing for them, when it finally happens.
so the ban on that...good...finally sombody's speaking up on behalf of those animals.
but thats just my opinion.

Hi,

To be honest I strongly suspect this has much more to do with the Catalonians trying to assert their individuality against the rest of Spain (whilst annoying the bejeebus out of them at the same time as a major bonus :rolleyes: ) than it has to do with any feelings about the treatment of animals.


dr del

This ban is wrong. This isn't some group of kids pulling the claws from a kitten's paw. This is hundreds of years of tradition. This is almost a state sponsored sport. It doesn't seem to affect but one bull fighting ring, ONLY ONE. Seems like a elitist group has bought the vote of the local government. I get tired of people like this.

If you don't like bull fighting, don't go to the ring. Why do people feel they have the right to choose what's best for the whole? I just don't get it. It happens all over the world for many different reasons. Somebody with a bunch of money, buys the vote of a few powerful people and impose their will.

It's just wrong.
Jim Smith

I don't think that 'tradition' should be immune from cruelty laws. Plenty of 'traditions' have been overturned as society evolves, and I am glad that this cruel and pointless torture is coming to an end.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

I don't think that 'tradition' should be immune from cruelty laws. Plenty of 'traditions' have been overturned as society evolves, and I am glad that this cruel and pointless torture is coming to an end.

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Don't get me started on this animal cruelty thing. Unless you live in a bubble, you contribute to animal cruelty everyday of your life. You just don't see it. But for most people, as long as they don't see the cruelty, they don't care.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Don't get me started on this animal cruelty thing. Unless you live in a bubble, you contribute to animal cruelty everyday of your life. You just don't see it. But for most people, as long as they don't see the cruelty, they don't care.

Jim Smith

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That is true. Unfortunately our society and culture is such that it is difficult to avoid cruelty to other living beings. However, that is no excuse for not attempting to reduce it. I personally do quite a bit in my own life to prevent being party to some common cruelties.

What we are talking about is pure sport. There is no purpose for bullfighting. There is no reason beyond the interests of a morbid crowd. I can see no logical reason to think this is acceptable.



To the OP- the argument to vegans and vegetarians is not a relevant one. In the case of raising and slaughtering animals for consumption, compromises can be reached. Allow it, but regulate the conditions under which the animals live and die, providing for a humane existence and death. I personally have no moral objection to eating meat or using animal products, but I do object to the often inhumane treatment of the animals we use and eat.

Bullfighting by definition requires torture. That is purely what it is, and there is no reasonable compromise which can be reached.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

That is true. Unfortunately our society and culture is such that it is difficult to avoid cruelty to other living beings. However, that is no excuse for not attempting to reduce it. I personally do quite a bit in my own life to prevent being party to some common cruelties.

What we are talking about is pure sport. There is no purpose for bullfighting. There is no reason beyond the interests of a morbid crowd. I can see no logical reason to think this is acceptable.



To the OP- the argument to vegans and vegetarians is not a relevant one. In the case of raising and slaughtering animals for consumption, compromises can be reached. Allow it, but regulate the conditions under which the animals live and die, providing for a humane existence and death. I personally have no moral objection to eating meat or using animal products, but I do object to the often inhumane treatment of the animals we use and eat.

Bullfighting by definition requires torture. That is purely what it is, and there is no reasonable compromise which can be reached.

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Because deer huting and fishing is any different? Is all tradition. ;)

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Don't get me started on this animal cruelty thing. Unless you live in a bubble, you contribute to animal cruelty everyday of your life. You just don't see it. But for most people, as long as they don't see the cruelty, they don't care.

Jim Smith

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Just playing devil's advocate, but regardless of animal cruelty elsewhere, that doesn't make this instance of animal cruelty any different. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. We shouldn't try to justify one instance of it because there are other instances of it. But I digress, probably starting to get OT.

As for the ban, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand I feel it is animal cruelty. You're essentially torturing the animal over the course of a period of time until it dies.

On the other hand, I can appreciate the cultural traditions that come with it.

I could be in favor of some compromise, where maybe after the bull has been injured a certain number of times, it is either instantly and humanely killed to end its suffering, or maybe its taken out of the ring, bandaged, and put out to pasture. I'm not sure what the answer is.

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Originally Posted by Danounet

Because deer huting and fishing is any different? Is all tradition. ;)

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If you had read the entire reply of mine that you quote you would not have asked this question.

I know many hunters and fishermen. I don't know any who make it a goal to torture their prey to death slowly for pure fun. The goal of any hunter is to take an animal down as quickly as possible (whether because of their own moral beliefs about killing or simply because it's easier than chasing a wounded animal through the woods). The two are not comparable.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

That is true. Unfortunately our society and culture is such that it is difficult to avoid cruelty to other living beings. However, that is no excuse for not attempting to reduce it. I personally do quite a bit in my own life to prevent being party to some common cruelties.

What we are talking about is pure sport. There is no purpose for bullfighting. There is no reason beyond the interests of a morbid crowd. I can see no logical reason to think this is acceptable.

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Unless you have been raised in this culture, you can't understand "the purpose for bullfighting". You do realize the meat from the bull is butchered and sold, just like the meat you buy in your grocery store.

I don't understand why people from other cultures want to judge others and THEIR culture. Don't tell me that sitting in your house on Main St, Anywhere USA, you know anything about the culture and history of bullfighting.


Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

Just playing devil's advocate, but regardless of animal cruelty elsewhere, that doesn't make this instance of animal cruelty any different. Animal cruelty is animal cruelty. We shouldn't try to justify one instance of it because there are other instances of it. But I digress, probably starting to get OT.

As for the ban, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand I feel it is animal cruelty. You're essentially torturing the animal over the course of a period of time until it dies.

On the other hand, I can appreciate the cultural traditions that come with it.

I could be in favor of some compromise, where maybe after the bull has been injured a certain number of times, it is either instantly and humanely killed to end its suffering, or maybe its taken out of the ring, bandaged, and put out to pasture. I'm not sure what the answer is.

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I personally don't like bullfighting. I went while in Mexico. But I will NEVER allow my feelings or opinions to judge another culture. There are so many things that would disgust you if you knew of what other cultures do as a tradition(s).

The only compromise is for us (non Spaniards) to allow them to determine what is best for their people.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Unless you have been raised in this culture, you can't understand "the purpose for bullfighting". You do realize the meat from the bull is butchered and sold, just like the meat you buy in your grocery store.

I don't understand why people from other cultures want to judge others and THEIR culture. Don't tell me that sitting in your house on Main St, Anywhere USA, you know anything about the culture and history of bullfighting.


Jim Smith

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I don't. And I don't need to. What I do know is that it brings unnecessary suffering and that that is wrong. Cultural tradition is not an excuse for cruelty. That is something we recognized in this country when we made the long-standing cultural traditions of dogfighting and cockfighting criminal offenses.

Also, I do not buy meat from a grocery store. The only meat I consume comes from the animals that I raise and humanely slaughter myself. I am careful about the animal products that I buy as well, opting at least for a trusted local source when vegan options are not available.

We will never end cruelty, but that is no excuse for not trying. Abuse of any living thing- from a fighting bull to an elderly human being- is unacceptable and immoral. This is without exception.

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

The only compromise is for us (non Spaniards) to allow them to determine what is best for their people.

Jim Smith

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I'm not clear on why you are arguing in this thread, then. Isn't that exactly what happened here?

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

If you had read the entire reply of mine that you quote you would not have asked this question.

I know many hunters and fishermen. I don't know any who make it a goal to torture their prey to death slowly for pure fun. The goal of any hunter is to take an animal down as quickly as possible (whether because of their own moral beliefs about killing or simply because it's easier than chasing a wounded animal through the woods). The two are not comparable.

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The fact is that hunters place their best shot to kill the animal. Many times that shot does not kill the animal immediately. In most cases, the animal runs off to die from blood lose. As a hunter, I've had to place a second shot through the heart of the animal I was hunting, because my first shot didn't kill the animal. Bow hunters NEVER kill the animal immediatley. They all die from blood lose.

If you've ever been upland hunting and shot a bird, sometimes you have to ring it's neck because your shotgun didn't do the job perfectly.

So, these two sports are a little more comparable than you might want to think.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

The fact is that hunters place their best shot to kill the animal. Many times that shot does not kill the animal immediately. In most cases, the animal runs off to die from blood lose. As a hunter, I've had to place a second shot through the heart of the animal I was hunting, because my first shot didn't kill the animal. Bow hunters NEVER kill the animal immediatley. They all die from blood lose.

If you've ever been upland hunting and shot a bird, sometimes you have to ring it's neck because your shotgun didn't do the job perfectly.

So, these two sports are a little more comparable than you might want to think.

Jim Smith

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I am not naive. Similar things happen from time to time when we slaughter our animals as well. As I have said, sometimes causing suffering is unavoidable. That does not mean that the intentional torture of a creature should be excused.

You have not told me anything that I don't already know, nor have you at all change my opinion.

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

I am not naive. Similar things happen from time to time when we slaughter our animals as well. As I have said, sometimes causing suffering is unavoidable. That does not mean that the intentional torture of a creature should be excused.

You have not told me anything that I don't already know, nor have you at all change my opinion.

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And you think I'm trying to change your opinion? That's illogical.

Jim Smith

I love a good steak like the next guy and would have no problems killing my food, but I do have a problem with the barbaric tradition of bullfighting. Just because it's a tradition, doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

Slowly torturing an animal for the enjoyment of others is just sadistic.

Take a look at pictures #38 and #39 from this set and tell me this is just a quaint little tradition. Photo blog link.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I love a good steak like the next guy and would have no problems killing my food, but I do have a problem with the barbaric tradition of bullfighting. Just because it's a tradition, doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

Slowly torturing an animal for the enjoyment of others is just sadistic.

Take a look at pictures #38 and #39 from this set and tell me this is just a quaint little tradition. Photo blog link.

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Yes but you are imposing your beliefs and morals onto another culture. That's why I'm arguing this point. I don't like bullfighting at all, I've seen it in Mexico and didn't care for it. BUT, I can't and you shouldn't impose our beliefs onto that culture.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I love a good steak like the next guy and would have no problems killing my food, but I do have a problem with the barbaric tradition of bullfighting. Just because it's a tradition, doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

Slowly torturing an animal for the enjoyment of others is just sadistic.

Take a look at pictures #38 and #39 from this set and tell me this is just a quaint little tradition. Photo blog link.

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I could not agree more, and my family are avid hunters. But, they shoot to kill. And, if the first shot doesn't kill it, it's a quick knife to the throat.

I personally would like to see the bullfighter fight the bull first. You can make a bull mad in plenty of ways without sticking poles in his back. I do think the running of the bulls is cool. But, it should be the fighter and the bull; one-on-one.

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Yes but you are imposing your beliefs and morals onto another culture. That's why I'm arguing this point. I don't like bullfighting at all, I've seen it in Mexico and didn't care for it. BUT, I can't and you shouldn't impose our beliefs onto that culture.

Jim Smith

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I don't understand. It wasn't us who banned it. It was Catalonia. How are we imposing out believes into that culture? We can't say that we don't like it?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I love a good steak like the next guy and would have no problems killing my food, but I do have a problem with the barbaric tradition of bullfighting. Just because it's a tradition, doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned.

Slowly torturing an animal for the enjoyment of others is just sadistic.

Take a look at pictures #38 and #39 from this set and tell me this is just a quaint little tradition. Photo blog link.

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I completely agree. I don't understand why you guys are so for it, does it really affect you that much that they are banning it? It's tradition but it's not right, can you imagine someone stabbing your snake or lizard torturing it and a bunch of ppl watching and enjoying the whole "show"? Granted pets and bulls might be different, but they are all animals and they feel pain. It breaks my heart that we care so much more for our pets than any other animals, but I guess we are selfish creatures...

You seem to be treating a 'culture' as if it were an individual with rights. I'm sorry, but no. I do not respect all aspects of all cultures. Cultures change over time, as they should. If they stagnate, they are generally doomed. It's time for Spain to join the first world in prohibiting blood sports. Their culture needs to change.
Just because it's old doesn't make it valuable.

'Tradition' has been used as an excuse for continuing a wide variety of evil and reprehensible things. It is not a valid excuse. Obviously, all Spanish people do not agree with bullfighting. The Spanish are the ones who will vote to keep or abolish this practice. All we can do is give them our opinion, and they will then choose to listen to it, or not.
I am certainly not going to keep my mouth shut for fear of contaminating their 'culture'.

At what point did culture become more important than life or death, or suffering?

Maybe we should start feeding people to lions and crocodiles again. That was a grand tradition in Rome, after all.

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Yes but you are imposing your beliefs and morals onto another culture. That's why I'm arguing this point. I don't like bullfighting at all, I've seen it in Mexico and didn't care for it. BUT, I can't and you shouldn't impose our beliefs onto that culture.

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So then according to that logic, slavery, stoning people to death, female circumsion, etc. are all good because it's just another culture and we shouldn't impose our beliefs and morals on others?

Or is it just when it doesn't affect people? In that case, killing off entire species for traditional medicines and rituals is copacetic?

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Yes but you are imposing your beliefs and morals onto another culture. That's why I'm arguing this point. I don't like bullfighting at all, I've seen it in Mexico and didn't care for it. BUT, I can't and you shouldn't impose our beliefs onto that culture.

Jim Smith

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No one forced or imposed their beliefs. They banned it themselves. And we're all free to have an opinion on practices on others cultures. There is nothing wrong with someone criticizing bullfighting or saying they feel its wrong.

its their tradition. Should not be taken away. People can deal with it.

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Originally Posted by dc1

its their tradition. Should not be taken away. People can deal with it.

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That's retarded. It is their people taking it away. Tradition or not, the people have just as much right to determine laws as does the government.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

That's retarded. It is their people taking it away. Tradition or not, the people have just as much right to determine laws as does the government.

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Their government is like ours. The minority has more power actually.

As someone who enjoys hunting, fishing, eating meat, etc, I find bullfighting to be pretty horribly barbaric.

That said, given the option, I would not vote for a ban imposed by the government.

Not all traditions are good. Look at slavery. Oh wait, it's different because it involves humans right?

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Not all traditions are good. Look at slavery. Oh wait, it's different because it involves humans right?

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I agree that not all traditions are good. However, I think it's different.

I love and respect my pets (dogs, cats, snakes, geckos, feeder and pet rats), all are treated kindly and well taken care of. However, I put human life before any animal.

Is a horse trained to pull a cart a slave? What about a working dog? A performing animal?
What about animals in a zoo or a caged pet? Can you apply the same laws of holding a person against their will to them?
Is killing an animal for any reason murder?

If you can't make human standards apply to animals I don't how you can imply it isn't different. But alas, everyone's opinion will be different :)

Thanks for the opinions guys/fellow ladies, I enjoyed reading your responses!

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Originally Posted by bad-one

I agree that not all traditions are good. However, I think it's different.

I love and respect my pets (dogs, cats, snakes, geckos, feeder and pet rats), all are treated kindly and well taken care of. However, I put human life before any animal.

Is a horse trained to pull a cart a slave? What about a working dog? A performing animal?
What about animals in a zoo or a caged pet? Can you apply the same laws of holding a person against their will to them?
Is killing an animal for any reason murder?

If you can't make human standards apply to animals I don't how you can imply it isn't different. But alas, everyone's opinion will be different :)

Thanks for the opinions guys/fellow ladies, I enjoyed reading your responses!

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You can't make human standards apply to animals, but that does not mean that we abandon all moral obligation to care for animals that we have control over.

Putting human life before animal life is, I believe, the logical and correct thing to do. But that doesn't in any way mean that humans ought to be allowed to torture animals to death for their own enjoyment. If someone accidentally found themselves in a position where killing an animal was the only way for them to escape harm, then I would absolutely condone that action. However, just because I believe my life to be of more value than a fighting bull's doesn't mean that I think it's ok to purposely breed and raise an animal to be put into a ring and slowly and painfully killed while a crowd cheers.

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Originally Posted by bad-one

Is a horse trained to pull a cart a slave? What about a working dog? A performing animal?
What about animals in a zoo or a caged pet? Can you apply the same laws of holding a person against their will to them?
Is killing an animal for any reason murder?

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None of the above measure the scale of bullfighting. I have a lot of caged pets, but I do not see it as cruel. An animal raised in a cage knows no different. And, I never tortured my horse to run barrels for me. He was rewarded for good behavior. Not punished for bad. There is a big difference.

Yes, some performing animals are abused. Even as their tradition, I think it should be stopped too. Humans will always come before animals, but why does that give us the right to torture them for our enjoyment? With great power comes great responsibility.

Yeah, really, what a lovely, valuable tradition.

http://www.sharkonline.org/bullfighting13.jpg

See all those things hanging off the bull? They're stabbed into the bull's skin. Barbs prevent them from falling off. Do you see all the blood running down the bull's body, all the wounds?
The sword just finishes the bull off after it's too exhausted to continue to fight for its life.

So, this guy gets into a ring with a bull that has been bred to be very aggressive. Then the bull is stabbed repeatedly. The goal is to madden the animal with so much pain that it won't even think about trying to flee--not that there is really anywhere to go. (Although at least one intrepid bull did manage to jump the wall and crash through the audience).
This guy dodges the bull while it repeatedly runs around the ring and trys to hit him in order to keep him from continuing to stab it with barbed poles. Sometimes it manages to injure him. Usually, it becomes exhausted, and he kills it with a sword. The huge crowd watches the entire thing, and rates him on how well he dodges and how pretty he can look while stabbing spears into a trapped animal.
He's considered to be an impressive specimen of manhood for his ability to torture and kill the aforementioned trapped animal.

I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with such a beautiful tradition.

That pretty much was my point. I just feel that human slavery can not be compared to/considered equal to cruelty against animals unless you hold other species to be equal to humans.

And I agree- Just because I put human life first doesn't mean I agree with torturing an animal. I don't know where I said it was acceptable :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by bad-one

That pretty much was my point. I just feel that human slavery can not be compared to/considered equal to cruelty against animals unless you hold other species to be equal to humans.

And I agree- Just because I put human life first doesn't mean I agree with torturing an animal.

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Ok. So, we're on the same page then. I was just stating that bullfighting should have a better argument than "it's tradition" to keep it going.

Turn the bull loose in Spain and have the fighter hunt it.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Not all traditions are good. Look at slavery. Oh wait, it's different because it involves humans right?

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without slavery the pyramids would have never been built.... but aside from the inappropriate remark, slave owners didnt get slaves because of tradition, they got them so they could use them for various tasks, not because their great great great grand daddy had slaves. and animals were put on this planet for us to eat, though we should not torture but that is their main purpose.

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Originally Posted by dc1

though we should not torture but that is their main purpose.

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Yeah. Not for beauty, or pleasure. FOOD! You go ahead, eat that banana slug. He's here for food, not to destroy nasty rotting leaves. Tell me how that works for you.

I supposed trees were put here for the sole purpose of lumber too. Look outside your box, the world does not revolve around us.

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Originally Posted by dc1

without slavery the pyramids would have never been built.... but aside from the inappropriate remark, slave owners didnt get slaves because of tradition, they got them so they could use them for various tasks, not because their great great great grand daddy had slaves. and animals were put on this planet for us to eat, though we should not torture but that is their main purpose.

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Wow.

So I take it you're fattening up your BP and dogs for a weekend BBQ?

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Yeah. Not for beauty, or pleasure. FOOD! You go ahead, eat that banana slug. He's here for food, not to destroy nasty rotting leaves. Tell me how that works for you.

I supposed trees were put here for the sole purpose of lumber too. Look outside your box, the world does not revolve around us.

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For our reality is does in fact revolve around us. Everything we do is because of our reality.

Any tool or food is there for our consumptioin, if not what would it be good for? Don't tell me to look at either.

You're being somewhat of a hypocrat when you threw out that banana slug remark. Not all animals are used for food directly, but it may be used for food for some animal that we do in fact eat.

Then you have to realize that just because you won't eat it, doesn't mean that there isn't a culture somewhere in the world that WOULD eat what you won't eat.

So, if what you're saying is true in your reality, what do you eat and what do you house your belongings?

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by unspecified42

You can't make human standards apply to animals, but that does not mean that we abandon all moral obligation to care for animals that we have control over.

Putting human life before animal life is, I believe, the logical and correct thing to do. But that doesn't in any way mean that humans ought to be allowed to torture animals to death for their own enjoyment. If someone accidentally found themselves in a position where killing an animal was the only way for them to escape harm, then I would absolutely condone that action. However, just because I believe my life to be of more value than a fighting bull's doesn't mean that I think it's ok to purposely breed and raise an animal to be put into a ring and slowly and painfully killed while a crowd cheers.

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But there you go, applying your morals to another culture. I can appreciate you not wanting to harm animals, but that's your belief/morals. You can't stand in judgement of another culture that does not believe the same as you.

Your culture kills animals EVERY DAY, but it's okay because you're not a direct part of that killing. Do all these animals die a peaceful death? I think not. But because you didn't throw the switch to electrcute that head of cattle, you can sleep at night after eating that steak dinner. You didn't stand on that assembly line ringing the neck of a thousand chickens, but you did eat the great tasting fried chicken dinner last night. You're life is longer due to the testing and killing of lab animals. Are you up to date on all of your shot? Did you take any medicine because you were sick or have an illness? Can you be sure there were no animals tortured in the name of science? Do you own clothing that was made from any animal hides? Do you know for a fact that none of these animals weren't tortured?

Of course you can't. No one can. But we as a society will allow others to do the work that we find distasteful. But that's okay, because that's who we are. But don't tell me that the only way you would kill an animal is if you felt your life was in danger.


Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

For our reality is does in fact revolve around us. Everything we do is because of our reality.

Any tool or food is there for our consumption, if not what would it be good for? Don't tell me to look at either.

You're being somewhat of a hypocrite when you threw out that banana slug remark. Not all animals are used for food directly, but it may be used for food for some animal that we do in fact eat.

Then you have to realize that just because you won't eat it, doesn't mean that there isn't a culture somewhere in the world that WOULD eat what you won't eat.

So, if what you're saying is true in your reality, what do you eat and what do you house your belongings?

Jim Smith

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No. You misunderstood me. I love to eat animals. Steak, chicken, hog, mmmmm. I do not think that is their only purpose. And, no my reality is not that the world revolves around us.

It survived without us long ago, I believe it would if we weren't here. I can honestly say, no animal I eat has eaten another animal. Not directly anyway. I supposed something dies, becomes the earth, grass grows and eventually it is eaten, but does that mean their purpose is to be eaten, or to become a fertilizer for grass.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yeah, really, what a lovely, valuable tradition.

http://www.sharkonline.org/bullfighting13.jpg

See all those things hanging off the bull? They're stabbed into the bull's skin. Barbs prevent them from falling off. Do you see all the blood running down the bull's body, all the wounds?
The sword just finishes the bull off after it's too exhausted to continue to fight for its life.

So, this guy gets into a ring with a bull that has been bred to be very aggressive. Then the bull is stabbed repeatedly. The goal is to madden the animal with so much pain that it won't even think about trying to flee--not that there is really anywhere to go. (Although at least one intrepid bull did manage to jump the wall and crash through the audience).
This guy dodges the bull while it repeatedly runs around the ring and trys to hit him in order to keep him from continuing to stab it with barbed poles. Sometimes it manages to injure him. Usually, it becomes exhausted, and he kills it with a sword. The huge crowd watches the entire thing, and rates him on how well he dodges and how pretty he can look while stabbing spears into a trapped animal.
He's considered to be an impressive specimen of manhood for his ability to torture and kill the aforementioned trapped animal.

I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with such a beautiful tradition.

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That's because you are not from that culture. Thousands of people go to watch these activities every day around the world. Could this be done in the USA, probably not, because it goes against our culture. But in these countries, it's no different than you going to a baseball game. I've said it before, I don't like it, it is too barbaric for me, but who am I to tell the people of these countries that they and their culture are wrong?

Let them be them, I'm sure you wouldn't want to allow them to come into our country and tell us that we should stop doing something that is purely American.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Wow.

So I take it you're fattening up your BP and dogs for a weekend BBQ?

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Appropriate animals are used for food all over the world. Just because we wouldn't eat it in the USA, doesn't mean it's not eaten in other parts of the world.

This is what I'm talking about. Stop pushing our culture onto another people.

Jim Smith

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

But there you go, applying your morals to another culture. I can appreciate you not wanting to harm animals, but that's your belief/morals. You can't stand in judgement of another culture that does not believe the same as you.

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Why not?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Why not?

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Would you want the Indian people demanding that you stop eating beef, because they believe that cows are sacred? Would you be willing to give up your Constitutional rights because some other culture doesn't believe in one amendment or another?

Our culture is ours and no one but ourselves have the right to tell us how to live. Same goes for the Spaniards.

Jim Smith

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Would you want the Indian people demanding that you stop eating beef, because they believe that cows are sacred? Would you be willing to give up your Constitutional rights because some other culture doesn't believe in one amendment or another?

Our culture is ours and no one but ourselves have the right to tell us how to live. Same goes for the Spaniards.

Jim Smith

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We're not telling them how to live. I don't agree with it, and I'm entitled to my opinion. Does that mean I would go to Spain and picket? No. I wouldn't try and change their beliefs, but I can still voice mine. It's ok to have different opinions, doesn't mean I think they should agree with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

We're not telling them how to live. I don't agree with it, and I'm entitled to my opinion. Does that mean I would go to Spain and picket? No. I wouldn't try and change their beliefs, but I can still voice mine. It's ok to have different opinions, doesn't mean I think they should agree with me.

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Please read what I was responding to. You and your opinion mean nothing to these people, and that's what I'm trying to say.

Please read some of your posts. You most definitely feel your opinion should matter in Spain.


Jim Smith

Quote:

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

Please read what I was responding to. You and your opinion mean nothing to these people, and that's what I'm trying to say.

Please read some of your posts. You most definitely feel your opinion should matter in Spain.

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Did you read the comments in the link that I posted earlier? Apparently a lot of people in Spain DO feel the same way. Maybe it just takes some perspective from outside cultures to allow them to see things differently, whether it's bullfighting in Spain or burquas in Syria. The world is getting smaller and smaller whether you like it or not...