Blue Eyed Leucistics - question regarding BluEL offspring

[Egapal]

When referring to a "Super" form a Super is the Homozygous form of a mutation.

Calling a BEL a Homozygous animal is only correct when both parents were the same mutation (Mojave to Mojave, Lesser to Lesser, etc etc).

A Mojave to a Lesser = BEL is simply a combo, unfortunately (to some) the combo results in a white snake. BEL is just a general name for a ball python that is lacking all pigment to the point where it is white and its eyes appear to be blue.

The problem with our disagreement is that there is no real definition for super form. Its not a genetics term so much as a herp term. The term was created to describe a visual difference in a homozygous form of a codominant animal for sure but I would argue that it could be correctly applied to a BEL. The animal definitely keeps with the spirit of the term by having an appearance that differs greatly from its parents. But regardless of whether you believe that or not I am going to need you to either concede my point or else take the BEL out of the list you provided in a previous post as quoted here

What's does a Albino, Hypo, Piebald, BEL, Super Phantom, and Ivory have in common? They're all Homozygous forms of their Heterozygous counter parts. There is a reason why people say that Yellow Bellies are Het Ivory. There are "Normals" out there that are Het Luecistic, Vin Russo is just a poor example that I used. I'll dig up the RR show and cut out the clip for you guys to listen to when I get a chance tonight/tomorrow night.

A BEL does not necessarily have anything in common with an Albino other than the fact that they look the way they do because of two genes at a particular locus. It could have two separate genes that express a phenotype that is very similar to the super form of either of those genes.

Oh yeah and still waiting for that example of a normal that's het for luecistic

[Beardedragon]

When I was getting my Bel I talked to the breeder about some of the clutch odds he has sired just to know, I think he said out of 7 clutchs it was a fairly even mix of lessers and het russos, maybe one clutch favoring lessers and another het russos, but no where in this convo did he say that a bel ever poped up. Did I ask? No, because I know it does not work that way.

[AaronP]

The problem with our disagreement is that there is no real definition for super form. Its not a genetics term so much as a herp term. The term was created to describe a visual difference in a homozygous form of a codominant animal for sure but I would argue that it could be correctly applied to a BEL.

As far as I know, and I've not heard otherwise, a super form is a when two co-dominates are bred together and produce an animal that when bred to a "Normal" can produce 100% it's co-dominate form. Which, again, as far as I know is the same as Homozygous.

The animal definitely keeps with the spirit of the term by having an appearance that differs greatly from its parents. But regardless of whether you believe that or not I am going to need you to either concede my point or else take the BEL out of the list you provided in a previous post as quoted here

Sorry, but it still Applies. As long as the Super form of a Lesser and a Mojave is a BEL, it will apply, but only to them, not the combo BELs. Again BEL is a general term for a specific appearance, and does not hint as to the genetics of the animal.

A BEL does not necessarily have anything in common with an Albino other than the fact that they look the way they do because of two genes at a particular locus. It could have two separate genes that express a phenotype that is very similar to the super form of either of those genes.

Oh yeah and still waiting for that example of a normal that's het for luecistic

Not necessarily True. A Homozygous BEL (again Lesser x Lesser, etc) is very similar to a Albino, the only difference is that Albino is a recessive trait so it is only expressed in it's Homozygous form, unlike Lessers which can be easily identified.

As far as the "Normal" het for Lucy, Randy already mentioned one example, I'll try to dig it up tonight, fiance was in town for V-Day this past weekend so I barely even touched my computer so I wasn't able to look for it then.

[sg1trogdor]

A BEL can not be a normal carrying the gene. A BEL is a super form. I think you may be referring at a lesser or Russo het Lucy, which is not a super form.

THats what he said. He said if one of the parents was a normal carrying the Bel gene IE a Russo Het lucy.

[Egapal]

As far as I know, and I've not heard otherwise, a super form is a when two co-dominates are bred together and produce an animal that when bred to a "Normal" can produce 100% it's co-dominate form. Which, again, as far as I know is the same as Homozygous.

I will stipulate to your definition of the term super form.

Sorry, but it still Applies. As long as the Super form of a Lesser and a Mojave is a BEL, it will apply, but only to them, not the combo BELs. Again BEL is a general term for a specific appearance, and does not hint as to the genetics of the animal.

Ok now you have lost me. So if you breed a lesser to a mojave and get a BEL, what is that animal homozygous for? Please do not make statements that are not always true without mentioning that its not always the case.

Not necessarily True. A Homozygous BEL (again Lesser x Lesser, etc) is very similar to a Albino, the only difference is that Albino is a recessive trait so it is only expressed in it's Homozygous form, unlike Lessers which can be easily identified.

Yeah I understand how the genetics work. My point is this. Genetics is something that people struggle to understand. Comparing an albino to a BEL like you have is misleading and the fact that combo BEL's exist make it very misleading when you use the therm BEL and don't specify the breeding.

As far as the "Normal" het for Lucy, Randy already mentioned one example, I'll try to dig it up tonight, fiance was in town for V-Day this past weekend so I barely even touched my computer so I wasn't able to look for it then.

The case that randy is referring to with Marshall Van Thorre doesn't sound like solid proof that a BEL can come from a normal. I have never heard of this case and regardless one case does not make for a proven line. This would need to be tested out and confirmed. From everything I have read BEL's come from the expression of genes that are codominant. Therefor having one of them would result in a visual morph.

[tjones]

Does anyone know anyone that has Leucistics available that are a decent price???

[Egapal]

Does anyone know anyone that has Leucistics available that are a decent price???

You may want to be a little more specific. I am sure that everyone who has a leucistic for sale believes their price to be decent.

[AaronP]

Ok now you have lost me. So if you breed a lesser to a mojave and get a BEL, what is that animal homozygous for? Please do not make statements that are not always true without mentioning that its not always the case.

How many times do I have to say that a True Homozygous BEL is a Lesser x Lesser or a Mojave x Mojave, or any other single co-dominate bred to itself that produces BELs.

Yeah I understand how the genetics work. My point is this. Genetics is something that people struggle to understand. Comparing an albino to a BEL like you have is misleading and the fact that combo BEL's exist make it very misleading when you use the therm BEL and don't specify the breeding.

I'm not talking about Combo BELs, I'm talking about Homozygous BELs.

The case that randy is referring to with Marshall Van Thorre doesn't sound like solid proof that a BEL can come from a normal. I have never heard of this case and regardless one case does not make for a proven line. This would need to be tested out and confirmed. From everything I have read BEL's come from the expression of genes that are codominant. Therefor having one of them would result in a visual morph.

You seem to be missing the punctuation marks [ " " ] because every time I've said Normal I've tried to put it in between quotations as to imply that they're not really normals, but that's what they resemble.

That Clip I mentioned before comes from episode:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptile...00bnerd-vs-bhb

And here is a clip that I cut out of it that cuts to the point:
http://leon2ky.com/leon/rr_lucy_clip.mp3

If you're listening to the original MP3 from the episode, skip to about 22:30-23:00 minutes in.

A Small transcript for anyone who doesn't care to download the MP3:

Larry: Hey uh, Brian and Kevin, it almost seems like now we have such a uh diverse captive breeding pool and captive breeders, it almost seems like all the new stuff is poping up right here out of our captive collections ya know.
And not coming out of Africa. Seems like this is the new Africa. All the normals that are being bred to the funny animal with the mustache lip that all of a sudden produced this fantastic new cross ya know.

Barcyzk: Well it's not surprising you know for the last ten years we picked, and when I say we I mean the entire United States mainly and even some of Europe have picked almost every cool animal out of Africa that they've offered. And they haven't held anything back ya know. They'll sell their last ball python in the continent to make a dollar. It's just a shear matter of numbers.

I'll give you an example; I bred a Fire Ball Python to a normal, ya know I've bred a number of ball pythons to fire males this year. And I had a couple of luecistics pop out of a clutch. Just a normal female obviously turned out to be a really ugly Fire or maybe another gene carrier or something like.

Ya know what I mean? I just think that when we're yanking all that stuff out of there it's inevitable. You hit it right on the head, we are the new Africa and it's really hard to get excited another new morph that's coming out unless it's something just so radically different. And I'll be honest I haven't seen that morph out of africa in at least 2-3 years. I don't even remember the last picture that I got that I was super impressed with. Yet I'm constantly impressed with pictures I see in US Forums.

Kevin M. I have to agree.

Now this was about Black Eyed Lucys (which is what Fires produce) but that lends some credibility to the possibility that there are "Normals" that may carry the Blue Eye Lucy genes, similar to the Russos.

I'm not saying I've got the entire Lucy thing figured out, if that was the case I'd be able to explain why a Lesser + Pied = a All white snake, or why a Phantom + Mojave/Lesser = BEL [aka Karma] but a Phantom + Phantom = Super Phantom

[RandyRemington]

I guess it comes down to the difference between "normal" and normal. The animal that Marshall bred was subtle but he could see something in her. Frankly I didn't think her belly was white enough to be a white snake producer but Marshall saw it and I know he was hoping she was compatible long before the eggs hatched.

I try to avoid "super" because I'm never sure what exactly it means. Is there a special genetics term for a heterozygous animal like a lesser\\mojave BEL where neither copy is normal? It's a little different than how we normally use heterozygous (normal paired with a mutant copy) but technically I think it's just as much a het as a het albino and certainly not homozygous like a lesser\\lesser BEL.

[Egapal]

Ok I don't want to argue. I know what you are saying. I just think that you need to be very very clear when talking about genetics. I think that saying "BEL" does not imply that its a homozygous as lots of BEL's out there are combos. The original question here was Regarding BluEL offspring. I think that you need to be very specific when you through out unrelated information. I personally think that anecdotal evidence about some Black Eyed Lucys to assert that a Blue Eyed could throw a normal or "normal" maybe possibly is a bit irresponsible. Until I see proof from a reputable source I have to stick with the answer to the original question of "The offspring of a BEL (with no other morph influences) will be 50% the morph of the male and 50% the morph of the female."