How many mice?

[Damon Theis]

One more time kids.

I dug up my feeding doc for the benfit of the author of this thread. I will also note that my adult mouse eater female that I have had for some time has taken down 24+ mice in 2-3 days on occaision. Yes, she is big. I'm not being a bragger, I am a responsible keeper and simply stating that every animal is different and has to be "read" for it's needs.

To add; this is just the "feeding related" portion of my doc...
To any that haven't read it, enjoy.

Snakes:
a beginner’s guide.
My compilation of experience.



In various forum threads I always notice conversations that give birth to debates of prey items. I normally don't care to add my comments to those threads, but I still believe some good points get brought up and they are worth sharing and discussing. There were also some comments that need not be repeated. In addition, there are other aspects of captive husbandry that are discussed with much passion by parties on both sides of the fence in regards to the topic at hand. Although I am certainly no expert, I have learned a few things during the 15+ years I have maintained the reptiles that have become part of my life. There have been many improvements in reptile husbandry over the years, but there is still progress to be made in some areas and myths that still exist. Herein I will attempt to convey my thoughts on the issues we as keepers face on a daily basis and what I see as preferred methods of action for a given scenario.

While knowledge has improved, there are still many areas of confusion, especially for the beginner. Feeding and caging are always at the top of the list. Prey items, size of meals, and frequency of feedings are common questions. While requirements differ from species to species, there are basic guidelines that can be applied to most that will yield the desired results. Methods of care also differ based on personal preference of the snake’s keeper. One of the most common debates associated with feeding is the use of live feeders versus pre-killed or frozen/thawed prey. I cannot say that one of these is right while the other is wrong, but I can help to provide my thoughts so you can be better prepared to decide which method works for your situation. Caging can vary greatly in design and size even within the range of discussing a single species. Again, this depends on the personal preference of the snake’s keeper. There are some that will say that there is one certain way that a specific species should be housed and turn their nose up at any other method. In reality, most species can be housed in a variety of ways quite adequately as long as the cage is designed and setup to maintain the environmental variables correctly. In addition to the above mentioned topics, I am quite sure I will digress into other areas of the captive husbandry of snakes as this document progresses. I hope that the endeavors to follow will be of some benefit to those entering this wonderful hobby.

Live vs. Dead

I hate this debate, but since it seems to be the hottest of topics in many cases and brings out some of the most emotionally driven comments I have ever seen, so I will start here and get it out of the way.

The use of live prey increases a snake’s exposure to parasites and possible injury. Face the facts: A mouse, rat or any prey item, does not want to be eaten. A live animal will try to defend itself in the face of necessity. Rodents are capable of doing so against many animals, including snakes. Those who have had an animal injured by a prey item almost always swear they will never use a live feeder again. However, in some circumstances, a live item may be more effective, if not necessary to invoke a feeding response in an animal that needs to eat. This is a gray area and up to the better judgment of the keeper. True anti-live feeder zealots would say to force feed instead of using live prey. I view force feeding as a dangerous activity, placing a huge amount of stress on the animal and a last ditch effort to save a non-eating animal. Use of a live prey item is a natural thing for the snake that can get them on track. I say “better judgment” because you need to be careful when using a live prey item. No live rodent should ever be left in a cage with a snake unattended. Let me repeat that. No live rodent should ever be left in a cage with a snake unattended. A live rodent can cause a considerable amount of damage to a snake that does not want to eat it. Snakes are often killed or die from injuries inflicted on them by live rodents left in the cage over night or unmonitored for extended periods. Does all this mean that people that feed live prey are irresponsible and putting their animals at risk? No. If you choose to feed a live prey item for whatever reason, you simply need to monitor the activity. If the snake is hesitant to take the prey you will probably need to remove it promptly, however, certain live prey items (typically mouse pinks or fuzzies) can be left in a cage overnight. You will be able to learn your snake’s habits in a relatively short amount of time with it and have the ability to tell if it is going to eat or not. Feeding live prey, if done correctly poses minimal risk to the snake. Do not feed live prey to an animal that does not expect it. Animals established on pre-killed or frozen-thawed prey should be kept on that standard. Introduction of a life prey item to an animal that is not familiar with such increases the risk to the animal. These animals are made to do this in the wild and have been successful in doing so long before they were brought into captivity by humans. They are efficient hunters that rarely take risks with prey items. However, in the wild, the snake has the opportunity to flee from a disturbance. It has no such option in a captive environment. Be careful.

Pre-killed or frozen/thawed prey will work very well for nearly everyone. The freezing of prey items minimizes the likelihood of parasite or disease transmission to the snake and there is virtually no chance of injury to the snake. Prey items are presented with hemostats, forceps or tongs depending on the size of the prey and the size of the snake to be fed. Some animals only require that the prey item be placed in the cage on the floor and they will find and consume it without any other intervention. Other animals require a bit of movement simulating the look of live prey. In most instances, a few small, subtle shakes will do the trick. Many keepers opt to by frozen feeders due to cost and convenience. They come in bulk and are easily stored. No feeding or maintenance of them is required, further reducing expense of maintaining your captives. Some say that they are less nutritious than a live or pre-killed prey item due to the freezing process. Common sense dictates to me that the level of nutrient loss from freezing is minimal if even a measurable issue. Practice the same inventory control with frozen feeders as you would with your own frozen meat. I recommend not keeping frozen feeders any more than 6 months before discarding for fresh supply. Simple record keeping will allow you to monitor your feeder inventory consumption and have planned reorder points so that frozen feeders on hand are used within 1-2 months and replenished with new. Frozen feeders are thawed in the same manner you thaw meat. You want to thaw them without cooking the tissue. They can be set out for an hour or so, depending on size to thaw and then brought up to feeding temperature by placing in warm water. You can also thaw directly in warm water, but do not rush the process. Thawing too quickly will result in the tissue of the abdomen wall becoming weak and can cause the prey to explode when constricted by the snake. This is neither visually attractive nor pleasant to the nasal cavity and should be avoided. Prey items may be brought up to feeding temperature directly in water or placed inside plastic bags before being placed in the water. The end result is having either a wet or dry food item to present to the snake. Some animals will prefer one over the other, while others will not care. Particular animals will only take dry in my experience. Animals referred to as “garbage disposals” will take even the soggiest of prey. Wet prey can also be extremely beneficial in adding hydration to an animal that needs it.

Pre-killed prey items are nearly as effective as live prey items when trying to trigger a feeding response from stubborn eaters, but not always. Pre-killed prey is presented the same as frozen/thawed. The only difference on the part of the keeper is that the killing of the prey item is required. The difference to the snake is mainly smell, as far as I can imagine. Of course, the fur is probably a bit softer and possibly fresher as well. As long as you have no personal issues with the demise of the prey at your hand, (or via dry ice chamber, CO2 box, ect.) pre-killed prey will prove a most successful and safe alternative to the use of live prey.

What method do I use? I have and continue to use all of them. I am aware of the risks and benefits associated with each method, and clearly see the usefulness of each. The use of live feeders is not an indication of poor care as some may suggest. I am comfortable with utilizing live feeders for my animals and will continue to do so. I use frozen/thawed and pre-killed prey whenever possible. Of the three, frozen/thawed is my preference, but the individual situation of animals in my care dictate the use of live and pre-killed prey on a regular basis.
Does size matter?

Absolutely. Selecting the right size prey is a key element of maintaining a healthy snake. The “rule of thumb” has been to use a prey item with the same girth as the thickest part of the snake. That is fantastic advice, but it is a generalized statement. Many snakes can eat larger prey items with ease. Even with some difficulty, a large prey item is not necessarily harmful. Terrestrial boids can eat massive prey items. Large meals can prove beneficial for animals who need to gain wait or for lethargic animals that do not require an active feeding schedule. I do not advocate feeding large items just to “see if it can” be eaten, nor do I generally approve of “tie-ons” or “power feeding,” but many people under estimate the capabilities and actual needs of boids.

Every animal is different, but the guidelines for a specific species should be adhered to unless you have reason or cause to sway. Arboreal boids eat much smaller meals and are prone to have problems with excessive feedings or larger items; the latter giving risk to a prolapse. What size prey do I use? I work with several species, so my needs vary a great deal. I routinely exceed the “rule of thumb”, but my animals are not pushed to gain weight nor are they overfed. I will add that I adhere to the “rule of thumb” for animals new to my collection or animals known to be problematic with large meals of which I have several.

How often do they eat? I actually consider this a more difficult question than size. While many will state a certain schedule should be maintained, I disagree with this statement. Sure, a schedule is nice…but what happens when a meal is rejected? Why was it rejected? Every animal in my collection keeps a different “schedule.” Keeping feeding records is important. Taking the time to document activity of your animal will enable you to look at trends and rationalize why, if not predict a feeding refusal. My rule of thumb is to feed a large prey item (usually as large or larger than the girth of the snake) every 10-14 days for terrestrial boids. For snakes that eat smaller meals, they are fed every 5-7 days depending on their age. I have some animals that eat small meals and only eat every 21 days on average. So, as always, listen to what the animal is telling you. They are all individuals. These are my opinions, so feel free to disagree. Most of the snakes we maintain are forgiving creatures and you should use your own judgement.



Feeding in the Cage

Should I feed my snake in its cage or should I feed it out of the cage? Yet another topic that you will find varied opinions on. Even when I was young and dumb to the reptile world, I still considered this an easy question to answer. It’s a simple question of conditioning. Most people that argue for feeding outside the cage will tell you that they do so in order to make the snake disassociate the cage with food and in doing so they are less likely to get bit with entering the cage to do maintenance or to take the animal out for handling. While some species of snakes are smarter than others, none of them could be considered anything other than creatures of habit and instinct. One could argue that removing the snake for feedings is conditioning the snake to associate coming out of the cage with feeding and thus making it more likely for the keeper to receive a “feeding response” bite. On the other side, you could argue the feeding in the cage conditions the snake to associate the cage door opening with feeding and by such put the keeper at risk of a “feeding response” bite each time they open the cage. So, you see, there is not a benefit of conditioning by either method. Quite simply, feeding in the cage will offer less chance of getting bit because you do not have to handle the snake either before or after (when you are most likely to get bit) the actual feeding. You shouldn’t be handling a snake for at least 24 hours after a feeding anyway.

What am I getting at? I feed exclusively in the cage. I feel this is safer for both of us. In addition, there are many species you cannot feed out of the cage. How would you take a green tree python out of the cage to feed it? You cannot. How do you take a 16 foot reticulated python out of the cage and what do you put it in to feed it? More importantly, how do you get it back into the cage afterwards when it is still in “feeding mode?” Quite silly when you put a little thought into it. There is also the issue of quantity of animals. Ask any person that feeds outside the cage how many animals they have. Guess what? The answer is going to be one more often than not. While owning more animals does not necessarily make someone more knowledgeable or better in their husbandry, in general, that person will have more experience and will have “been around the block” so to speak. On a final note to all of you trailer park hill jacks that feed your burm/boa on the living room floor so you can take pictures to impress your friends and your girlfriend; (cousin Sally) First, buy a vacuum at the next yard sale you go to. Second, realize that you are an accident waiting to happen.

[scarface2jz]

i have a 7 month old pastel BP, he eats 1 rat pup every monday, he seems to be doing pretty good with that

[joshthaxton]

I have a similar problem. My female only eats live mice. I've tried to convert her to FT or FT rats for the longest time and she just wont go for it. So during the summer I've had to feed her like 7 mice/week because I only have one petstore around here that sells live mice, and sometimes they aren't very large mice, more like slightly big hoppers.

[jonnydanger]

My girl is just over 2 months old and will eat just about anything and everything I put in front of her. Half the time I dont even have a chance to put the mouse in the box. She see's it coming and has struck it right as it hits the bottom. I also feed her live mice. I dont know if thats the reason she gets all excited or not but boy does she love em. She gets one every Monday morning, and one on Thursday night. When she graduates to small rats then I will start her on a once a week schedule.

[wax32]

I have a similar problem. My female only eats live mice. I've tried to convert her to FT or FT rats for the longest time and she just wont go for it. So during the summer I've had to feed her like 7 mice/week because I only have one petstore around here that sells live mice, and sometimes they aren't very large mice, more like slightly big hoppers.

Start breeding mice! It will be cheaper in the long run.

[wax32]

I can't participate in this poll. My 08's are eating rat fuzzies. My 07 hasn't eaten since September, he wants a girlfriend right now, not food.

[iFlingP00]

Sounds like the petstores around here.
The "adult" mice are nothing more than large hoppers and they charge $3 each.
I think they get stiffed because once people see the size, they tell the petstore to go screw.

I have much the same problem where I am.
The pet store charges $1.19 for mice - period. Not bad, but they're tiny little things!
The rats come in two sizes, "small" and Jumbo. Their definition of small, to
me, looks like a medium. And I've asked them several times to order
smaller rats, and the one time they did, they got in 2 weanlings.
PLUS... the price on rats is $5.95.

I've wanted to start breeding rats, but with just 2 snakes, I don't know if it would be worth it.
Plus, I really don't know if my husband could handle the
rat smell.

As for the poll, I try to feed a 'small' rat every 2 weeks.

[ch312]

but giving it 3 mice throughout the week is not healthy or wise.

please explain

[southb]

Well I think it all depends. I just got a really neat normal male and I was told that they fed him two mice a week. Well he is an eating machine! I've given him five mice in the last three days. I do not see how that could hurt him at all. I do not power feed, but I don't see anything wrong with that since most major breeders do it. Just my .02$