Snakes, dogs, cats, horses-- anthropomorphism

[littleindiangirl]

You believe saving the life of your child is an instinct. I don't, and here's why. This is exactly what I was taught, and I don't see how your scenario fits the qualifications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinc...fic_definition

A number of criteria were established which distinguishes instinctual from other kinds of behavior. To be considered instinctual a behavior must
a) be automatic,
b) be irresistible,
c) occur at some point in development,
d) be triggered by some event in the environment,
e) occur in every member of the species,
f) be unmodifiable, and
g) govern behavior for which the organism needs no training (although the organism may profit from experience and to that degree the behavior is modifiable). The absence of one or more of these criteria indicates that the behavior is not fully instinctual

If these criteria are used in a rigorous scientific manner, application of the term "instinct" cannot be used in reference to human behavior. When terms, such as mothering, territoriality, eating, mating, and so on, are used to denote human behavior they are seen to not meet the criteria listed above. In comparison to animal behavior such as hibernation, migration, nest building, mating and so on that are clearly instinctual, no human behavior meets the necessary criteria. And even in regard to animals, in many cases if the correct learning is stopped from occurring these instinctual behaviors disappear, suggesting that they are potent, but limited, biological predispostions. In the final analysis, under this definition, there are no human instincts.

Clearly you believe the opposing school of thought, so in reality we will never make amends other than to disagree.

[ZinniaZ]

If these criteria are used in a rigorous scientific manner, application of the term "instinct" cannot be used in reference to human behavior. When terms, such as mothering, territoriality, eating, mating, and so on, are used to denote human behavior they are seen to not meet the criteria listed above. In comparison to animal behavior such as hibernation, migration, nest building, mating and so on that are clearly instinctual, no human behavior meets the necessary criteria.

However, if these criteria are used in a rigorous scientific manner for any species, then there is no instinctive behavior in any species. I know horses, ddogs, and rabbits that will not mother their young. Therefore mothering is not an instinctive behavior in horses, dogs, or rabbits? I know horses that will not nurse or will not eat. I know dogs that refuse to eat. I know snakes that never eat. And die because of it. Therefore eating is not an instinctive behavior in these creatures? I know pandas will not breed. I know snakes and dogs that will not breed. I know horses that will not breed. Therefore breeding is not an instinct of these species? I know stallions that have killed thier young. I know mother dogs that have killed their puppies. In every species across the board, there will be aberrant members of the species that defy the instinctive behaviors. The definition is flawed.

However, I really don't want to hash at this or disagree constantly. I can accept that your definitions are different than mine. That is fine.

[Crazydude]

Well that's another large disagreement among psychologists. I believe the teachings that humans do not have instincts. It's what I was taught in college and high school, and I still believe it today.

What about the suckling response in babies right after they are born, or crying? Not learned....
And we still have some instinct, What is a panick attack? Its a flight response to a situation that your body feels is threateing or stressful, You cant control this at the time, so its classified as a instinct, even if a distorted one.

Maternal instinct, For those who beleive snakes are pure instinct, pythons have a instinct to coil around there eggs and keep them warm and protect them. Human mothers have something similar. If they have no instinct, they developed similar reactions yet one is reason, the other instinct?

------------------------------------

As for reason, I meant learn, A snake that has escaped, will try the same route over again every time.
http://www.anapsid.org/smartsnakes.html

My point with the dolphin and shark was not to compare it to a snake, But apples and oranges can sort of apply, they are both fruit, and both can be eaten. They have a similar end result, but are different in the make-up. But im pretty sure thats not the way you meant it. All i was saying is that with dolphins and sharks, structure is totally different and unrelated, one has cartilage, other bone as far as skeleton, but they both do the same thing as a final result. The part in the human brain that feels emotions may not be in the snake brain, but another part which is physically different, may have the same end result (emotion ext)

with the dogs, i was just talking about dog emotion in general as it seems like it is part of the thread, Gorillas have not been domesticated, would be a cool pet minus the overpowering part, and danger. Just saying that intelligence doesnt always relate directly to all subjects involving the brain, and that the instincts can change. After 3-4 generations of domestication the foxes were just like dogs, how many generations are some CB snakes? We cant assume they never will adjust to humans either. but that i dont beleive was my origninal point, sorry my minds kinda scattered atm...

As for evidence, im currious as to what, THere is no such thing as evidence towards something not existing, as the not existing thing has no evidence. So just like with trials, there is only proving something happened or exists, not that it cant.....

See, even in animals, you can habituate an animal not to respond to its instincts. We despook horses. We train dogs not to eat small critters that we don't want them to eat. But we would not say those animals do not HAVE the instinct.

adding to that...Instinct can be broken too. Just a quick example with reptiles. If someone quickly jumps infront of my beardie, it puffs up its beard and opens its mouth, after a few times of being "spooked" it doesnt react at all to it anymore. ---Habituation

Good points everyone,
Ben

[ChicaPiton519]

To be honest, didnt reat this whole thread, dont have that much time on my hands.

but personally, im not sure snakes have emotions, but i do think dogs have some, for instance, when i bring my dog Keara for a walk, the other one freaks out and starts whining, and crying and pacing, [[sadness?]] when i go out and throw a ball for them, they wag their tail, they rub against me, [[happy.]] i also think they can feel stress, and depression... arnt those emotions?

what about the dogs with separation anxiety(sp)
explain that? sure they feel safe with some one....

technically, our "emotions" are based on safety, and comfort, along with if we are happy, i know if i am not happy with something, i dont look happy. same with my dog. so... yeah... just my $0.02


(as far as the domestication, i have never thought dogs were domesticated, i think its just a word people put on them to make others feel 'safe' i know in one split second, if my dog, or any dog felt like it, she could rip me up... so... just like any wolf, or other undomesticated animal could be used to people, then randomly turn on their handlers.)

[littleindiangirl]

However, if these criteria are used in a rigorous scientific manner for any species,

What is the definition of mothering? Mating? Giving birth? Protecting? Or is mothering in the sense of nursing and teaching?

I think before any blanket statements are made, each behavior or action from any animal can be broken down into their basic components and motivations.

If a female snake never wrap her eggs to keep them warm, are her genes meant to pass on?

Very philosophical... hmmm

[ZinniaZ]

Well, I guess pick one. I can't think of a single instinctive behavior in any animal that there is no exception for. Can you?

[Crazydude]

Very philosophical... hmmm

.....sacratic method comming about???

If a female snake never wrap her eggs to keep them warm, are her genes meant to pass on?

Whole nother ethics/bloodline/ should we interviene argument there....But a interesting one. No real answer to that.

Ben

[littleindiangirl]

What about the suckling response in babies right after they are born, or crying? Not learned....

By the way, the suckling is classified as a reflex.