wobbles

[West Coast Jungle]

Actually no, it can't. Slight spinners produce train wrecks and vice-versa. There is no such thing as a non wobbling/spinning spider.

That is a bold statement John. Have you had this experience yourself?

[Gloryhound]

I think each person has their own opinion here and we could argue this thread to 100+ pages if we wanted too! OK!

What makes spinning a negative trait?

Now negative traits are generally based on things that inhibit an animal in its native environment from what I understand.

Lets take a mildly spinning spider and put it in its native environment. Then lets take a nice bright super lemon pastel and put it in its native environment. Which is probably going to live the longest assuming both are the same length, weight, and sex?

I believe using this analogy you would be calling the bright colors a negative trait as it would be easily seen by those that prey on them!

Lucky for the supers we make they do not end up in the wild and we can continue to call it a positive trait as far as collectors are concerned.

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this topic. If you have plans to breed and animal with any trait I think you need to let anyone who purchases the animal know about the trait. The individual doing the purchasing will decide if the trait is a negative or positive to them and affect how much they are willing to pay for the animal. If you are keeping the offspring for yourself then before you breed an animal with a any trait you have to be ready to take care of the babies that have those traits and any others that develop.

[J.Vandegrift]

That is a bold statement John. Have you had this experience yourself?

It's really not a bold statement. It is pretty widely accepted that all spiders spin/wobble. Maybe a few years ago it would have been a bold statement but not anymore. As I have said. I won't breed them (or keep them in my collection) but I don't look down on anyone who feels differently than me. What does bother me a bit is when people try to claim that "it just adds personality" or tries to say it is not a negative trait. Before I decided they were not for me I held and looked through over 100 of them looking for that perfect one at various shows and in friends collections. It does not exist. They are all tweaked (at least a little). Either way, it does not really matter what I think on this. The public has spoken and it is obvious from the number of spiders out there that this disorder does not seem to bother most breeders/keepers too much.

[Gloryhound]

It's really not a bold statement. It is pretty widely accepted that all spiders spin/wobble. Maybe a few years ago it would have been a bold statement but not anymore. As I have said. I won't breed them (or keep them in my collection) but I don't look down on anyone who feels differently than me. What does bother me a bit is when people try to claim that "it just adds personality" or tries to say it is not a negative trait. Before I decided they were not for me I held and looked through over 100 of them looking for that perfect one at various shows and in friends collections. It does not exist. They are all tweaked (at least a little). Either way, it does not really matter what I think on this. The public has spoken and it is obvious from the number of spiders out there that this disorder does not seem to bother most breeders/keepers too much.

So what you are saying is some of the largest and most respected breeders in the ball python community are knowingly selling and breeding snakes that have genetic issues and should be classified as substandard unethically becouse they are not disclosing these facts up front? I'm just wondering how you can make this claim! When if you ask these well known breeders about their spiders and/or Spider X ???? morphs none of them tell you "You can barely notice this one spin." or "this one really spins!"

[soy.lor.n]

What does bother me a bit is when people try to claim that "it just adds personality" or tries to say it is not a negative trait. Before I decided they were not for me I held and looked through over 100 of them looking for that perfect one at various shows and in friends collections. It does not exist. They are all tweaked (at least a little).

But you've offered no proof that it is a negative trait. Just because all spiders have it doesn't mean that it's bad hehe. If you don't like them (or just the wobbling) then that's fine, but there are plenty of differences between specimens of all species.
Again, for example, many Asians lack an enzyme needed to break down alcohol, and so even a small drink makes them feel really sick.
But I wouldn't say that they shouldn't breed because they'll pass it to their kids, and I also wouldn't say they shouldn't breed with other ethnicities because they'll sully our genetic material.
Unless there's a clear negative effect, I'll remain unconvinced. (And I mean, one that's spinning badly and keeps smacking its head, I could see the argument that HE has a disorder, but as long as they're just a little weird, let them be!) Variety is the spice of life!

[J.Vandegrift]

So what you are saying is some of the largest and most respected breeders in the ball python community are knowingly selling and breeding snakes that have genetic issues and should be classified as substandard unethically becouse they are not disclosing these facts up front? I'm just wondering how you can make this claim! When if you ask these well known breeders about their spiders and/or Spider X ???? morphs none of them tell you "You can barely notice this one spin." or "this one really spins!"

When did I say that I thought any breeder was acting unethically??? I clearly said more than once in this thread that I DO NOT look down on any breeder or keeper for choosing to keep and breed spiders. It is my own personal stance that I will never own or breed them. It is up to everyone individually to decide whether to work with spiders or any other morph. But yes, I do think ALL breeders should disclose to every customer that spiders wobble/spin before finalizing any sale. Now if a breeder tried to claim that his spiders don't spin then yes, I would consider them to either be unethical or at least not very knowledgable on the subject.

[J.Vandegrift]

But you've offered no proof that it is a negative trait. Just because all spiders have it doesn't mean that it's bad hehe. If you don't like them (or just the wobbling) then that's fine, but there are plenty of differences between specimens of all species.

Still looking for the video of my friends spider spinning. I would like to hear your opinion on the subject once I am able to find and post it.

[JeffFlanagan]

"I do believe that breeders have seen “spinning” in spider siblings, but I don’t think that it is any more common in the normal looking siblings of spiders than it is in any other normal looking ball python."

It never said it doesn't happen. Just said its not as common in normal sibs as it is in spiders.

It seems like you want to believe something, so you're misinterpreting information to fit your mistaken belief.

If it's not more common in spider sibs than other normals, there isn't a problem gene being passed to the sibs. Of course this is obvious if you think about it at all. If the wobble was a separate gene, only spiders with that gene would wobble.

[rabernet]

I have nothing to add but a question
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Hypothetically, since weebles wobble - but don't fall down - is that a bad thing?

[LadyOhh]

I have nothing to add but a question
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Hypothetically, since weebles wobble - but don't fall down - is that a bad thing?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH