More mud in the debate over WC Gravids

[Brimstone111888]

My major problem is that these animals get over here - they are completely misrepresented and sold as ghosts, desert ghosts, axanthics, etc. when their coloration is most likely due to being gravid - and then the "oddballs" that are hatched are almost as likely a result of stress on either mom or the egg and are not in fact genetic. How few of these oddballs actually prove out?

Anyway - it's economics for a poor country - and if we didn't buy them as pets they would end up as food. If the wild populations die out - there are plenty of unwanted normals in the US we can send back for re population.

Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

Whoa whoa whoa. Are you saying stress changes the coloring of the mother and the eggs? Sounds like PURE speculation, and a bit ridiculous.

From what I've seen most imports have a little bit of a different look to them, but thats because they are breeding out in the wild and the captive ones are being selectivly bred. Overall it leads to subtle differences.

[Tosha_Mc]

Let me rephrase because apparently some people are not understanding what I'd meant to get across.

We do know that stress can change a snakes color - we know that being gravid hormones, etc. can change a snakes color - we know that often times gravid females whether imported or cb change color to have an axanthic or ghostly appearance - but prior to or after laying their eggs return to normal - and this is not a genetic condition - however we see the ads in the classifieds that these wc females are these morphs - most likely they are not anything other than normal girls and will return to their normal looking colors after laying their eggs.

We also know that stress (in various forms) on the mother during her "pregnancy" and/or stress on the egg can cause anomalies in what would otherwise be a normal hatchling. That is to say - even tho these WC hatchlings, captive hatch hatchlings or even some oddball captive bred hatchlings look odd different etc. - they are really genetically just normals until proven otherwise.

Now with as many oddballs that we see - very few actually turn out to be genetic. It's just something to keep in mind and think about before ploping down $2K on a gravid "desert ghost".

[PythonWallace]

Let me rephrase because apparently some people are not understanding what I'd meant to get across.

We do know that stress can change a snakes color - we know that being gravid hormones, etc. can change a snakes color - we know that often times gravid females whether imported or cb change color to have an axanthic or ghostly appearance - but prior to or after laying their eggs return to normal - and this is not a genetic condition - however we see the ads in the classifieds that these wc females are these morphs - most likely they are not anything other than normal girls and will return to their normal looking colors after laying their eggs.

We also know that stress (in various forms) on the mother during her "pregnancy" and/or stress on the egg can cause anomalies in what would otherwise be a normal hatchling. That is to say - even tho these WC hatchlings, captive hatch hatchlings or even some oddball captive bred hatchlings look odd different etc. - they are really genetically just normals until proven otherwise.

Now with as many oddballs that we see - very few actually turn out to be genetic. It's just something to keep in mind and think about before ploping down $2K on a gravid "desert ghost".

That can be true, but I've never seen those kind of prices that you're talking about ($2k). That specific add said all of the gravid females are $125 - $250 for the largest girls. Even the "oddballs I've seen for sale have said things lie "oddball red Axanthic type" or whatever, but I don't remember seeing any of these for more than $600. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it happen, and it certainly isn't happening in the ad this thread is talking about.

[PythonWallace]

I also don't think anyone would by a gravid wild caught female for anywhere near $2k without the snake looking like it was a really cool morph, but that person spending that kind of money would also know the risk that it isn't genetic. If it's advertised as WC, nobody can know for sure. Some people have spent $20,000 - $50,000 on a WC oddball hatchling that ended up proving out as normal. That's risk vs. the possibility of a huge reward.

[Brimstone111888]

I think BHB said he bought a snake for around $100,000 or some ungodly high number and never proved out. Most expensive normal he owns.

There are obvious things you need to watch out for, being they are WC.

The stress thing I'm not to sure about. The only scientific way to measure stress is through Cortisol content in blood and I can't find anything about it causeing anomalies. If you have information I'd like to see it so I can better understand it, hopefully its not just speculation.

Maybe Heather can help she work in labs testing stuff.

[littleindiangirl]

There is an idea going around about melanistic ball pythons that dont prove genetic. The emphasis being stressed that the conditions of the eggs during incubation were not at the optimal levels and the animal that hatched out of it was super dark. Two different breeders, almost same conditions, and they both got some dark balls. This is just pure speculation though, but something to think about, and can't readily throw out environmental stress as a factor in color and development.

[Gary Orner]

I was going to quote some posts but WOW. is all I have to say about somethings said here.

Ok I will state my opinion.

1) If these adults were not shipped here I bet they would have been kept by said importer and the babies sold and picked through as all the others have been. They have their groups that lay and hatch and that is our farmed babies. The ones that has been said in this thread to be batter to go through. Them babis come from WC adults.

2) The bigger breeders or breeders that have been in it a long time do get dibs on the odd balls. 99% of the time one of them take the odd ball. But still that does not mean that a WC gravid female can not throw a dinker. This is what all morphs are untill proven.

3) if you support morphs then importing is a must.

4) Unless you know for a fact how these ball pythons are treated you can not say they are abused. I have personally seen Ron Billingsly's place. He keeps these snakes in great condition. And when they lay they are still taken care of. He gets 99% of them eating and treated. When I have a WC animal not eating I ask him. I think he has a secret power over noneaters lol.

I am not trying to fight. Just stating that all moprhs came from dinker balls that are WC.

all that is happening is the some of the gravids are being shippid over here instead of them sitting at the "farm" and then them laying and the farmers hatching the babies and picking through them.

What happens to all the adults? I can tell you Rons are taken care of while he has them. The other people I can not comment on. I have a dinker project from a WC gravid last year. The Ball Pythons all have silver eyes well half the clutch did. I had 9 eggs 9 hatched and 5 have the silver eyes. The female ate small rats after she laid. She was treated for internal parasites and that was that.

How many proven morphs came from WC gravid females. Ron got Red Axanthics last year. I honestly could not believe it.

Also Ivories have been hatched from WC gravid Females.

Not saying that saying that too many or too little have been imported. But they would be collected no matter what. The famrers know that the farmed babies will sell. No matter what. And they do not have to feed the Gravid females. They just have to sit and wait for eggs. Now them females are in the US. Do some die I bet you they do. DO some get kept and breed again. I bet they do.

[frankykeno]

It's been interesting reading this thread considering we have two of those adult female WC's in our collection.

One is absolutely confirmed as being a gravid imported adult female who did lay her clutch in the States, was traded off to another owner, and then came to us as a non-eating rescue. By all reports Danu either never ate or ate VERY sparingly during her year in captivity prior to coming into our hands. She was only 800 grams and skinny when we received her. After a lot of work and months of careful care she is now finally eating multiple ASF's once per week and gaining back her weight.

The other is a suspected import, perhaps gravid, we'll never know that part. We did confirm that somehow this adult female BP ended up in a nasty pet store in Michigan, was taken from there by a caring vet tech, treated for her internal and external parasite load, and a large open wound tended to. That wound on examination by more than one vet was determined to have likely come from either a snake hook or capture stick used too roughly. She never ate. She went to another owner, she never ate. When she came to us as a rescue she was down to 600 grams. I hope to never hold an adult female BP in my hands again that weighs only 600 grams...it's heartbreaking. Months of work, worry, well we are now 2 years into her rehabilitation and Saoirse's pretty much okay now. We've never solved the riddle of her winter fasting, we likely never will with this one so her weight gain is slow but steady.

All the talk of numbers and maybe you'll get a morph. I just wanted to put a "face" on those numbers for some of you. This is about a living, breathing creature that does deserve some sort of decent existance. I have no problem with Ungo and his family making a living from a renewable resource, I have no problem with controlled importation under CITES. My problem will always be with what happens to some of these females after that clutch is laid and maybe they just aren't worth the work anymore.

[Gary Orner]

The abused animals are not becuase they are imported. They happen to all animals and morphs.

I will give a story.

I had a very very nice pair of Ghosts boas a little over a year ago. These snakes were awesome but not breedable yet and I offered them up for sale. They were about 4 foot a piece. The male could have bred being 2 years old but you know. But I sold this pair of snakes a year ago for 2400 dollars.

We contacted the people we sold them to. I wanted the female back. I asked how much they would sell her for. I was thinking 8 months of feeding she could be over 5 foot maybe a bit more. But nothing. They would not sell. Then a few months later We get a call. They wanted to trade us the female ghost we wanted for some snakes I had. Cool

I had a 5 foot 100% het Kahl Albino, A Orange Tail Hypo and a normal female. They wanted them all. i wanted this female that bad I said yes.

I drive to meet the guy. What I see I was in shock. I mean I felt sick to my stomach.

I open the bag to see the ghost with over 5 sheds on her head and SHE LOOKED SMALLER! My 06 Orange tail was 4 foot and the ghost was the same size(length) but thinner. I have pics of the ghost before they got it. She was AWESOME. But they let this animal go down hill. BAD. He still wanted to trade and I thought to myself WHAT. But I kept my hypo and traded him the het and the normal and said I would contact him.

The ghost died 4 hours later. NO CRAP! 4 HOURS! I was a little upset. I do nto get upset with much. I wanted my snakes back. I did end up getting them back that night. and i seen the rest of his collection. All looked ok but he would not let me in the house lol.

But that was a very very expensive snake. He abused. He said she never ate. but that snake did not know what refused meant. I mean she slammed food.

I could not believe that. I kicked myself in the butt for even trading and the thought of my other two snakes being in his care. But emotions got the better of me at the time and i wanted to save that ghost.

So it is not the importation. It is not the animals. It is just wrong people keeping. That deal almost made me stop selling. Really

[frankykeno]

The abused animals are not becuase they are imported. They happen to all animals and morphs.

I'm well aware of abuse, Gary, we've other female snakes here with the scars to attest to their previous owner's mistakes and poor care.

The fact is though with some of these imported gravid females, there are going to be a certain percentage of people that aren't looking out for the snakes, they are looking for a shortcut. Shortcuts might be fine if those type of people cared much for the creatures themselves but I think we all know a few in this hobby/industry who really don't care all that much. So these females, at least some of them, get dumped and as with the two we ended up with, they aren't in great shape and need careful management.

It's one thing to abuse an animal because you are stupid or didn't bother to educate yourself or are just plain mean natured - that's awful and very sad. For me though, it's a different category of mean when you know how to manage them correctly and make the decision that certain snakes are just not worth the hassle once you've gotten the clutch.