Feeding live mice and rats is dangerous... Wives tale?

[Mike Cavanaugh]

I bought a normal ball yeaterday....i was saving for a spider (from the same place) and going to get said spider....

i WATCHED a rat literally eat a hole onto this snake

i now own a normal, ingured ball that I did not have the heart to leave....with a hole in it's head ( i would show photos but he's resting comfortably and I think he's had enough stress for awhile)

I have always fed live...had a nibble now and then but nothing that the next shed didn't take cae of

funny you should post this...i honeatly think that the conditions the feeders are kept in plays ALOT into what happens to the snakes...especially depending on the circumstances on how the rodent was kept....

do i think this rat would have eaten a hole in this snake had it been fed and watered properly? no, probably not

i feed live...will the snake be bitten like that again?...highly doubt it...but then again, my feeders live "better than I do"....my animals always come first....

you just cannot have a cut any dry answer without taking into consideration facts from each circumstance.....not possible

I'll be glad to post pics when he feels safe enough to poke his pretty little face out

WHat???!!!! How can you watch a rat eat a hole in a snake! when you drop the rodent in, either the snake takes it or it doesn't. When a rodent is dropped into the cage it does not just immediately charge and attack the snake!

To date, many have voted.... nobody has experienced bites severe enough to scar except for those who "have heard of horror stories"

[bearhart]

If this helps, I feed live every week ... on average, over the last 10+ years I have gone through approximately 400 live rodents per week (this year I'm feeding over 700 live per week, 10 years ago it was 100 - 200 ... so 400 is an average over the last decade) ... I feed every week out of the year ... so if you figure; 400 rats per week x 52 weeks per year x 10 years ... that's 200,000+ live feedings over the last 10 years and that is a conservative estimate ... with all of those feedings, I have never had a single bite, scratch, or mauling.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Adam, you've posted your stats on this subject several times. Even though I'm highly skeptical that none of your snakes have ever been bitten or scratched AT ALL, I believe that the core of your claims are truthful. I can accept that you've never had a snake significantly injured during a live feed. Furthermore, your numbers are truly impressive and seem to almost suggest that injury during live feeding is a freak occurance.

But its not. I have two snakes I feed live and both have sustained injuries. I can't claim to have the same level of experience you do but, in a weird way, that kind of turns the tables in this case.

So, this is where the interesting part comes in. What's the difference? I suspect that it lies in several details that are overlooked in the typical thread on this subject: prey size, prey type, snake readiness, enclosure layout.

I suspect you'd agree.

I'll make my final point with a little mental exercise. Let's say I've driven professionally for 10 years. I've clocked hundreds of thousands of miles and never once had an accident. Now, let's say I'm so proud of myself I get a job teaching driver's ed. I go to a high school and stand up in front of class of teenagers who've never driven, and say "Driving is completely safe. I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles over the last ten years and never had even a fender bender! Class dismissed!"

So, I'd love to hear about your methods and benefit from your experience. But, with all due respect, the "impressive stats" posts are of dubious, and perhaps negative, value.

[Pork Chops N' Corn Bread]

I will admit, from time to time I feed my younger boas live, sometimes, even a preweaned rat will get a small nip in but it never does any damage to the snake and I have never seen even a messed up scale from it. The balls on the otherhand who have never eaten f/t, they get a perfect strike every time and the mouth of the rat isn't even close to getting them.

[NightLad]

I know somebody who is currently being filmed to appear on a reality TV show. I was at the home for a taping two days ago, and somehow the conversation (over a break) turned to pets and people started talking about what they have. In turn I was asked, and told them that I have a Ball Python.

One of the boom operators said that a friend of his used to have one, but a rat killed it. The snake allegedly constricted the rat long enough to stun it, but did not kill it. Half-way down the snakes throat it revived and bit/clawed its way out of the snake, killing it.

I was just shocked when I was told this. I commented that the rat may have been too large, and that the rule about feeding is that the prey should be no larger than the girth of the snake, nor should it be able to leave a 'lump' going down. The guy just kind of shrugged and said he didn't know the specifics of the situation other than what happened.

I have no idea if it is true or not, but the boom operator guy seemed sober and relatively 'normal.' I can't imagine why somebody would make up a story like that; he did say it was his personal friend, not a 'friend of a friends girlfriend's cousin.'

Personally I'd rather not feed live, and since I live in a house with people who have serious allergies to even tiny furry animals, like a hamster, keeping live on hand isn't possible. I hope to go to F/T soon, but Salzedo is giving me a run for my money on that front.

[FL0OD]

Again wow, let me quote Mike:

I AM ONLY LOOKING FOR FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES HERE. I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE READ, OR HEARD, OR WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FRIENDS SNAKE. I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES, FEEDING YOUR SNAKES, FIRST HAND.

You should never feed your animals based on horror stories from others. A lot of people that responded do not feed live prey because of things the heard. It all goes back to responsibility. You feed your animal prey that it is to big, you get what you get. You leave prey in the cage that is to big for the animal, you get what you get. I would venture to guess that both of those are the main causes for such things happening. What a lot of people do not realize is that when you freeze a food it, because all of its vital organs shut down, the snake looses out on a lot of the B12 and other vitamins that the rat/mouse provides for the snake, but thats a whole other discussion. I think the main thing in here is that there are waaaaay to many people that are afraid of there animals being bitten, which of course no one wants, but the occurrenes of it are so small and yet they are made so large that the new ball python community is petrified of feeding live animals to there snakes. I need to point everyone here. Please go and find Brian Barczyk's second interview and listen to what he says about how he feeds his ball pythons. It is about 15-20 into the interview for those of you that do not have patients. What he says would make most new people and people that frozen prey to there animals skin get goose bumps. Again not to say that he is right and people that feed frozen are wrong but just to try to deflate this over blown fear of feeding live prey. I would highly advise people new and old to listen to Reptile Radio if you have never heard of it. It is very informative and give you views from regular folks to large breeders and will definitely open your eyes to a lot of things as long as you go in with your mind open. Its a once a week radio show that is an hour long and it is well worth your time if you are any kind of hobbyist or pet owner wanting knowledge about reptiles in general.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Adam, you've posted your stats on this subject several times. Even though I'm highly skeptical that none of your snakes have ever been bitten or scratched AT ALL, I believe that the core of your claims are truthful. I can accept that you've never had a snake significantly injured during a live feed. Furthermore, your numbers are truly impressive and seem to almost suggest that injury during live feeding is a freak occurance.

But its not. I have two snakes I feed live and both have sustained injuries. I can't claim to have the same level of experience you do but, in a weird way, that kind of turns the tables in this case.

So, this is where the interesting part comes in. What's the difference? I suspect that it lies in several details that are overlooked in the typical thread on this subject: prey size, prey type, snake readiness, enclosure layout.

I suspect you'd agree.

I'll make my final point with a little mental exercise. Let's say I've driven professionally for 10 years. I've clocked hundreds of thousands of miles and never once had an accident. Now, let's say I'm so proud of myself I get a job teaching driver's ed. I go to a high school and stand up in front of class of teenagers who've never driven, and say "Driving is completely safe. I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles over the last ten years and never had even a fender bender! Class dismissed!"

So, I'd love to hear about your methods and benefit from your experience. But, with all due respect, the "impressive stats" posts are of dubious, and perhaps negative, value.

I've already posted a thread somewhere around here that describes my methods for feeding live. I'm sure that if you're unable to find it yourself, someone can give you a hand.

Feeding live is not for everyone ... I would encourage you to choose a feeding method that works best for you and your snakes.

I apologize if my post offended you in any way.

Hope this helps.

-adam

[daniel1983]

If you feed live and the snake gets injured....It is the keepers fault for not knowing how to handle things properly.

Feeding issues have nothing to do with the condition of the rodent.

People can kill a snake feeding f/t incorrectly. People can kill a snake feeding live incorrectly.

It is all about keeping experience.....some people just don't have the experience to feed live food items.

Your poll should read:

No I NEVER LET my snake GET hurt while killing a rodent.
Yes, I ALLOWED MY SNAKE TO BE bitten while killing a rodent but it didn't break skin
Yes, I ALLOWED MY SNAKE TO BE bitten, and it did puncture the skin, but it did not scar
Yes, I ALLOWED MY SNAKE TO BE bitten, and the bite left a permanent scar.

I guess it is easy for people to blame the snake or the rodent instead of blaming themselves for doing something wrong.

[Adam_Wysocki]

It is all about keeping experience.....some people just don't have the experience to feed live food items.

I actually know people that have burned snakes using UTH's incorrectly for whatever that's worth.

-adam

[daniel1983]

I actually know people that have burned snakes using UTH's incorrectly for whatever that's worth.

....I have heard of all sorts of things happening to captives.....it all boils down to keeping experience and the keeper's 'focus'...

...I know someone who slid the glass over on an enclosure and killed a snake by not paying attention. Broke it's neck. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE PAID MORE ATTENTION.

...I know of people having their lizards CHEWED to nothing by feeding too many crickets. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE KNOW HOW DANGEROUS CRICKETS CAN BE.

...I know of people making beaf jerky out of baby snakes for not knowing that a 150w heat lamp does not belong on a 10 gallon tank with screen top. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE EDUCATED THEMSELVES MORE BEFORE GETTING THE ANIMAL.

...I know of breeders who have killed male snakes from breeding them without regard for their lives. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THE STRESS THAT PUTS ON THE ANIMAL.

On this very thread, a person said they bought a ball python one day, fed it the next and it got injured. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE KNOW TO LET THE BALL PYTHON SETTLE IN INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CRAM FOOD DOWN ITS FACE LESS THAN 24 HR. AFTER BRINGING IT HOME.

Mistakes happen. A keeper that blames the rodents or the snakes or the light bulb or the enclosure.......THAT PERSON IS A UNEXPERIENCED KEEPER. An experienced keeper knows when to accept responsibility for killing/harming an animal.

I have killed reptiles before. It happens when mistakes happen. I learned from those mistakes, I regret some every day when I look at my animals....and those mistakes will never occur again for the rest of my reptile keeping days.

[FL0OD]

....I have heard of all sorts of things happening to captives.....it all boils down to keeping experience and the keeper's 'focus'...

...I know someone who slid the glass over on an enclosure and killed a snake by not paying attention. Broke it's neck. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE PAID MORE ATTENTION.

...I know of people having their lizards CHEWED to nothing by feeding too many crickets. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE KNOW HOW DANGEROUS CRICKETS CAN BE.

...I know of people making beaf jerky out of baby snakes for not knowing that a 150w heat lamp does not belong on a 10 gallon tank with screen top. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE EDUCATED THEMSELVES MORE BEFORE GETTING THE ANIMAL.

...I know of breeders who have killed male snakes from breeding them without regard for their lives. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THE STRESS THAT PUTS ON THE ANIMAL.

On this very thread, a person said they bought a ball python one day, fed it the next and it got injured. THE KEEPER SHOULD HAVE KNOW TO LET THE BALL PYTHON SETTLE IN INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CRAM FOOD DOWN ITS FACE LESS THAN 24 HR. AFTER BRINGING IT HOME.

Mistakes happen. A keeper that blames the rodents or the snakes or the light bulb or the enclosure.......THAT PERSON IS A BEGINNING KEEPER. An experienced keeper knows when to except responsibility for killing/harming an animal.

I have killed reptiles before. It happens when mistakes happen. I learned from those mistakes, I regret some every day when I look at my animals....and those mistakes will never occur again for the rest of my reptile keeping days.

well said