Low maintenance tank decor suggestions

[Homebody]

Many cases of salmonella in immunocompetent adults are minor, and we might just write it off as 'stomach flu' or 'grocery store sushi, that was a mistake' or something less.

I didn't mean to imply that the general risk was substantial (since I don't think it is, and I don't think the data says it is). I was correcting the 'snake v turtles' claim, mostly.

But as to the knowledge level of physicians, there seems to be a lot known about the risk of infection as related to specific immunosuppressive therapies -- for example " A higher incidence of salmonellosis is seen also in patients with antibody deficiencies, defects in cell-mediated immunity and deficiencies in Th1 cytokines (IL-12, IFNγ) or cytokine receptors (IL-12R β1 subunit, IFNγR chains 1 and 2). " A physician prescribing immunosuppressive drugs might have reason to try to avoid one of the cytokine inhibitors if there's even a slightly elevated baseline exposure to Salmonella (or not; they could do the math on that).

It might depend in part on the condition being treated, such as the combined effects of disease and treatment in lupus. I'm sure there are many more specific considerations, and physicians tend to know a lot of this sort of stuff right off the top of their head (a visit to my rheumatologist is always a lesson in how much detail he knows).

I'd love to hear your view on the op's last question. If I wash my water bowls and hides in my dishwasher, am I increasing my risk for salmonella. What if I wash my repticarpet in the washing machine?

[Malum Argenteum]

I'd love to hear your view on the op's last question. If I wash my water bowls and hides in my dishwasher, am I increasing my risk for salmonella. What if I wash my repticarpet in the washing machine?

Well, these are risks we take when washing dishes that contacted raw meat, or clothing that includes undergarments or especially linens that were dirtied by someone with a GI issue. We raised a child on exclusively cloth diapers and I never worried about it (maybe I should have?). Right now I'm running a load that has the clothes I wore this morning while processing a sheep for the freezer (and another set that I wore yesterday while hanging it up) -- kind of gross. Running a bleach cycle after a nasty clothing load isn't a bad idea whether a person has reptiles or not.

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the chart here, but I couldn't find anything better:

https://ourdailybrine.com/wp-content...tion-table.pdf

Our dishwasher has a "sanitize" cycle that claims to run at 70c/158F, which the chart says kills Salmonella in 11 seconds.

I wash all my reptile equipment in a utility tub in my reptile room, and clean/disinfect stuff like plastic plants and cork bark in a bucket with bleach water. I use either a bleach water dip (10 minutes) or alcohol spray (10 second contact time required for Salmonella, per CDC) to disinfect dishes and hides after hand washing.

If I were immunocompromised, I suppose I might have different practices.

[dakski]

I will add to the immune compromised part of this thread.

After my kidney transplant I met Brian Barczyk at a reptile forum. I explained that I probably should not keep snakes because of being immune compromised but any advice he could give would be appreciated. He spoke of a friend of his who bred carpet pythons in Australia and who had a transplant as well. He said he kept about 300 snakes and never had health issues because of them. He cleaned, bred, and had many bites, etc.

I did a lot of research after that and ended up getting Figment (my Hypo Lavender Corn Snake) and Frank (my Northern Blue Tongue Skink) from Brian and BHB. I now have 9 reptiles that I keep (2 lizards and 7 snakes) and have had as many as 13 at one time. As far as I know, I have not gotten sick from them. People, yes. Food, yes. Reptiles, NO!

I do not ask for trouble though.

-I keep my cages clean and use paper substrate as discussed.

-I use disinfectant on all my cages and decor and properly.

-I feed F/T. More likely to get sick from a live rodent (in a variety of ways) than from a reptile (especially one I know is healthy).

-I do not touch waste (on purpose - accidents happen - but I am very careful) and never touch my face or mouth until I have washed my hands thoroughly and repeatedly including with antibacterial soap. I also keep my nails trimmed and wash under them. Some people wear gloves. I generally do not, for what's worth. Maybe I should?

-I keep my animals as healthy as I can.

-Did I mention I keep my cages clean?

Many people are against antibacterial soap as it builds resistance. I agree, in general, but is probably wise for immune compromised people to use in certain instances. This is one.


My doctors were against me keeping reptiles. I explained the research and precautions and told them what they could do with their unsubstantiated fears. After years of not getting sick from the reptiles, and having many of the same doctors, they have changed their tune (with me).

I understand they want to keep me safe and "better safe than sorry." However, why have a kidney transplant and not be able to do things that bring me joy? My reptiles are included in that. I also understand that not everyone is a careful as I am. I know people who lost transplanted organs, or died, because they did not follow doctor's orders on meds, appointments, etc. Most doctors are speaking to you as they would to anyone, not necessarily giving you personal advice. Remember, they want you alive and they do not want liability. Sadly, that is the name of the game in medicine, as in many other professions these days. We have a litigious society.



Finally, it was mentioned that paper substrate is not ideal for locomotion/movement for snakes. For what's worth, paper substrate is okay as long as it has some texture (printers newspaper has a little) and/or there are objects (like hides, water bowls, etc.) for the snake to use as "footing"/traction. My snakes have adapted well and use the walls, the hides, the bowl, etc., but also seem to do okay regardless of using something to push off of.

Even if they would do better on substrate in terms of that, I believe the detriment to my health and potentially theirs, is not worth the risk.

If you do not keep up on cleaning substrate, including major cleans regularly, it can be a hazard not a help. It can also be an issue if humidity gets too high. That's for people who are not immune compromised. Add in immune issues and it doesn't seem worth it.

[ROSIEonFIRE]

Wow, I am so grateful for these informative, thoughtful, and amazingly well-researched suggestions. This thread has taken a turn that I really didn’t expect but am so thankful for as I’m contemplating potential futures. Whenever I decide to get a new pet I always take a long time to research and set up habitat prior to purchasing and at this stage I’m quite far from purchasing since I haven’t begun to set up the tat. And of course my decision to buy a snake is going to depend a lot on what shakes out with my medical situation which is extremely up in the air right now. Although I had assumed a bioactive setup would be less sanitary, it is interesting to hear that there’s speculation that it might reduce shedding of salmonella. Thank you for sharing that paper [mention]Malum Argenteum [/mention]I’ll definitely take a look at it! I wonder what other husbandry practices could be used to reduce the risk of zoonotic transmission, outside of high quality cleaning and hygiene practices.

[Malum Argenteum]

Although I had assumed a bioactive setup would be less sanitary, it is interesting to hear that there’s speculation that it might provide some benefits

If you're referring to the comment that I made, that was about 'naturalistic' enclosures, not so-called "bioactive" ones, and wasn't about the setup itself but rather the snakes' rate/risk of shedding pathogens.

The specific passage from the paper is "The differences noted in detection rates between wild reptiles and reptiles in captivity could—as mentioned above—also be due to differences in conditions, with dietary, stress and crowding-related factors likely causing the higher detection rates found in reptiles in captivity. Given the high dependency of ectothermic organisms on their environment, and natural living situations probably reflecting more physiological conditions than those in captivity, this could contribute to a stronger immune system and reduced stress."

Taking a look at the citations, all of them are about either or both (a) the differences in Salmonella detection rates between wild and captive reptiles, and (b) the differences in Salmonella detection rates between baseline and artificially stressed animals.

It looks like I may have extrapolated a bit between 'natural living situations' and 'naturalistic husbandry', since I saw the comments about stress and automatically made the connection. I'd still stand behind my interpretation, but would note that there's a little bit of explaining needed to establish that reptiles kept in naturalistic enclosures have lower levels of stress (I think that case could be made, and there are some studies that support the case). I do not think that most reptiles kept in "bioactive" enclosures would be expected to have lower stress levels than those kept in naturalistic enclosures.

[ROSIEonFIRE]

I will add to the immune compromised part of this thread.

After my kidney transplant I met Brian Barczyk at a reptile forum. I explained that I probably should not keep snakes because of being immune compromised but any advice he could give would be appreciated. He spoke of a friend of his who bred carpet pythons in Australia and who had a transplant as well. He said he kept about 300 snakes and never had health issues because of them. He cleaned, bred, and had many bites, etc.

I did a lot of research after that and ended up getting Figment (my Hypo Lavender Corn Snake) and Frank (my Northern Blue Tongue Skink) from Brian and BHB. I now have 9 reptiles that I keep (2 lizards and 7 snakes) and have had as many as 13 at one time. As far as I know, I have not gotten sick from them. People, yes. Food, yes. Reptiles, NO!

I do not ask for trouble though.

-I keep my cages clean and use paper substrate as discussed.

-I use disinfectant on all my cages and decor and properly.

-I feed F/T. More likely to get sick from a live rodent (in a variety of ways) than from a reptile (especially one I know is healthy).

-I do not touch waste (on purpose - accidents happen - but I am very careful) and never touch my face or mouth until I have washed my hands thoroughly and repeatedly including with antibacterial soap. I also keep my nails trimmed and wash under them. Some people wear gloves. I generally do not, for what's worth. Maybe I should?

-I keep my animals as healthy as I can.

-Did I mention I keep my cages clean?

Many people are against antibacterial soap as it builds resistance. I agree, in general, but is probably wise for immune compromised people to use in certain instances. This is one.


My doctors were against me keeping reptiles. I explained the research and precautions and told them what they could do with their unsubstantiated fears. After years of not getting sick from the reptiles, and having many of the same doctors, they have changed their tune (with me).

I understand they want to keep me safe and "better safe than sorry." However, why have a kidney transplant and not be able to do things that bring me joy? My reptiles are included in that. I also understand that not everyone is a careful as I am. I know people who lost transplanted organs, or died, because they did not follow doctor's orders on meds, appointments, etc. Most doctors are speaking to you as they would to anyone, not necessarily giving you personal advice. Remember, they want you alive and they do not want liability. Sadly, that is the name of the game in medicine, as in many other professions these days. We have a litigious society.



Finally, it was mentioned that paper substrate is not ideal for locomotion/movement for snakes. For what's worth, paper substrate is okay as long as it has some texture (printers newspaper has a little) and/or there are objects (like hides, water bowls, etc.) for the snake to use as "footing"/traction. My snakes have adapted well and use the walls, the hides, the bowl, etc., but also seem to do okay regardless of using something to push off of.

Even if they would do better on substrate in terms of that, I believe the detriment to my health and potentially theirs, is not worth the risk.

If you do not keep up on cleaning substrate, including major cleans regularly, it can be a hazard not a help. It can also be an issue if humidity gets too high. That's for people who are not immune compromised. Add in immune issues and it doesn't seem worth it.

That’s really cool that you got to meet BB! I definitely agree that when you’re confronted with chronic illness and its ramifications, it’s important to weight the QOL benefits and recognize that some risks might be worth taking. If you have any resources you can direct me towards regarding keeping snakes while immunosuppressed I would be really interested in seeing them. Thank you so much for sharing your experience in this area.

Also I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a niche in this market for an absorbent, disposable, optimally textured paper mat for snake tanks!

[ROSIEonFIRE]

If you're referring to the comment that I made, that was about 'naturalistic' enclosures, not so-called "bioactive" ones, and wasn't about the setup itself but rather the snakes' rate/risk of shedding pathogens.

The specific passage from the paper is "The differences noted in detection rates between wild reptiles and reptiles in captivity could—as mentioned above—also be due to differences in conditions, with dietary, stress and crowding-related factors likely causing the higher detection rates found in reptiles in captivity. Given the high dependency of ectothermic organisms on their environment, and natural living situations probably reflecting more physiological conditions than those in captivity, this could contribute to a stronger immune system and reduced stress."

Taking a look at the citations, all of them are about either or both (a) the differences in Salmonella detection rates between wild and captive reptiles, and (b) the differences in Salmonella detection rates between baseline and artificially stressed animals.

It looks like I may have extrapolated a bit between 'natural living situations' and 'naturalistic husbandry', since I saw the comments about stress and automatically made the connection. I'd still stand behind my interpretation, but would note that there's a little bit of explaining needed to establish that reptiles kept in naturalistic enclosures have lower levels of stress (I think that case could be made, and there are some studies that support the case). I do not think that most reptiles kept in "bioactive" enclosures would be expected to have lower stress levels than those kept in naturalistic enclosures.

Yes thank you for that important clarification! So naturalistic here would refer to enclosures with lots of hides and things to climb on in assuming? I have to be honest I truly know nothing of snake veterinary issues. I wonder if it’s possible/feasible to get animals tested to determine whether they are carriers of salmonella and other zoonotic diseases and if they are if it’s possible to remediate medically. This would certainly help immunocompromised people reduce their risk of contracting something from their pets!

[dakski]

That’s really cool that you got to meet BB! I definitely agree that when you’re confronted with chronic illness and its ramifications, it’s important to weight the QOL benefits and recognize that some risks might be worth taking. If you have any resources you can direct me towards regarding keeping snakes while immunosuppressed I would be really interested in seeing them. Thank you so much for sharing your experience in this area.

Also I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a niche in this market for an absorbent, disposable, optimally textured paper mat for snake tanks!

1. I cannot speak for others and I understand his YouTube Channel was controversial, but my experience with Brian was amazing. Such a passionate and knowledgeable guy. He spent 20 minutes on the phone with me on 2 occasions for me to buy a $75 corn snake. That was after spending time talking to me at a reptile expo. I also had many calls with other staff, including his wife, when buying Frank. Very good people who love(d) reptiles and wanted others to as well and have great experiences with them as well.

2. QOL is huge. Having said that, so is a commitment to a living creature like a snake. Kudos to you for taking the time and being thoughtful and learning as much as you can.

3. Gosh, it was years ago (12 years since transplant). I am not sure what I have for you in terms of research at this point.

4. Happy to share and (try to) help.

5. "Also I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a niche in this market for an absorbent, disposable, optimally textured paper mat for snake tanks!"

You are sitting on a gold mine!

6. In all seriousness, I wish you the best in life and health. Please know whatever you are dealing with, you are not alone. I think I speak for others on BP.net in saying, we are all thinking of you.

7. Again, I am very impressed and relieved to see the amount of thought and effort you are putting into this.

For what's worth, I think you would make a great snarent!

[Homebody]

Finally, it was mentioned that paper substrate is not ideal for locomotion/movement for snakes. For what's worth, paper substrate is okay as long as it has some texture (printers newspaper has a little) and/or there are objects (like hides, water bowls, etc.) for the snake to use as "footing"/traction. My snakes have adapted well and use the walls, the hides, the bowl, etc., but also seem to do okay regardless of using something to push off of.

I'm glad you mentioned this. When I first got my BP, I kept him on newspaper in a sterilite tub, but, with the water bowl and hides there was plenty of décor for him to push and pull for locomotion. I still use newspaper in half my current enclosure for my Children's python. That half of the enclosure is filled with all manner of junk. That brings me to another décor option we haven't discussed, disposable décor.

If you don't care about appearances, packaging materials make great décor. Cardboard packages and shipping envelopes make great hides. Cardboard tubes serve as enrichment items. My daughter's laptop came nestled in foam. Now, my Children's python is nestled in foam.

My frozen grocery items come wrapped in insulated paper. It's textured and helps to trap heat from my UTH. It would make a good substrate.

Just be careful. This stuff wasn't manufactured and tested as snake décor, so it's on you to make sure it's safe for your snake.

The obvious upside of disposable decor is that you don't have to clean it. When it gets dirty or old, just toss it. There's always more to replace it.

[Malum Argenteum]

Yes thank you for that important clarification! So naturalistic here would refer to enclosures with lots of hides and things to climb on in assuming? I have to be honest I truly know nothing of snake veterinary issues. I wonder if it’s possible/feasible to get animals tested to determine whether they are carriers of salmonella and other zoonotic diseases and if they are if it’s possible to remediate medically. This would certainly help immunocompromised people reduce their risk of contracting something from their pets!

The authors of the paper I was referring to used 'natural living situations' to refer to living in the wild.

When I use the word 'naturalistic', I mean an enclosure that uses natural materials in its furnishings: basically, made of substances that aren't created in a lab/factory -- and this 'made of' is a matter of degrees -- so, on a rough continuum of less to more naturalistic:

-- plastic < cardboard < wood (hides/hardscape)

-- plastic < live (plants)

-- carpet < paper < natural particle < whatever substrate they're physically adapted to* (substrate)

I think the case could be made that an additional aspect of 'naturalistic' enclosures is that they allow for a wide range of habitat choice -- so, an enclosure that has all "natural" furnishings is less naturalistic than the same enclosure that's ten times as large and has usable gradients of height/substrate moisture/RH/temperature/illumination levels and combinations of those gradients.

*note that a species isn't 'adapted' to something simply because that thing exists in its natural habitat, but rather is adapted to something if and insofar as the species has physical or behavioral traits that enable the species to use the thing to its benefit. Further, behavioral adaptations often don't translate well to captive environments (since a captive animal's behavior is restricted by available space and enclosure design). There's a lot of misuse of the idea of "replicating nature" in animal habitats, and much of it comes down to the failure to understand adaptation.

"Bioactive" is 'naturalistic' plus provisions for waste processing and endogenous food sources. The "bioactive" concept has basically ditched the latter aspect (since it is impossible for most herp species even to a small degree, and literally impossible to provide a full diet for virtually any captive herps), and the former aspect typically isn't well designed in enclosures for most herp species (as can be seen by the need to remove solid waste manually, and the omission of provisions for sufficient nutrient export and pathogen removal over the lifespan of the captive).

Salmonella can be tested for through PCR like many other herp pathogens, but it is considered a part of natural gut flora and so attempting to get rid of it would be very unlikely to be in the best interests of the snake.