Ball python neglect help

[Nakoa]

A 50 gram rat is a small rat, not a pup. If the feeder is truly 50 grams you should feed every 7 days.

I would also suggest getting some NutriBac which is a probiotic for reptiles, and dust a bit of the powder on each of his feeders. The probiotic will help him get his good gut flora back.

I thought that when i weighted it but i bought them as rat pups and they dont have fur or very little so just put rat pup as that was what they was sold as..

il look at getting some NutriBac the others i took from the guys collection would probably benefit from it also.. they are small for age as one 2015 female is 1400grams she is slightly under weight but nothing that a few good meals wont fix i think the others if they stayed in his care would have gone the same way.
He does have a multi vitamin in his water they all do and he has a calcium dust on is food the vets did recommend that, didn't say anything about a probiotic but il look into getting that thank you

and for hydration he does drink a lot iv seen him drink often as i think he didn't have regular access to water but the vets will be doing blood tests once he has a bit more strength

But we was very surprised for his small frame and his doesn't eat rodents only sometimes eats chicks as soon as a rat went in range he struck it coiled and then ate it and was looking for more, but we wont be giving him anything more than that as don't want to over whelm his system hence why i ordered rat pups but got what i did i also believe his skin wouldn't hold up to well to being over stretched by to much.

as for the food because the rat "pups" are 50 grams i have some ASF weaner's that are smaller around 34 grams but they are full fur would it be best to use them or just stick with the rats as they have little to no fur

[Nakoa]

ok im gonna correct it i just checked his feed card it was a 15 gram rat pup it was feed day for a few babies i have i got confused lol

[Albert Clark]

ok im gonna correct it i just checked his feed card it was a 15 gram rat pup it was feed day for a few babies i have i got confused lol

Thats fine. The main thing is you are now heading in the right direction. Reptiles don’t get sick quickly they have a tendency to mask their illnesses. They certainly don’t heal and recover quickly.

[Bogertophis]

...
He does have a multi vitamin in his water they all do...

Just a suggestion- don't do that. First, because snakes don't drink that much water, so most of that is wasted (being so diluted) in a bowl of water. Also, it's going to go bad (encourage bacteria in the water) if you don't change water daily.

Better way: Install the vitamin (whether it's powder or droplets) into the dead rodents mouth right before you offer it. I'm assuming you're feeding dead (f/t or fresh) rodents, but if not, don't bother doing this until it is. Live rodents have plenty of vitamins, & putting supplements on their fur- well, mostly that just falls off, but it also makes the rodent smell "different" & wouldn't you know it, some snakes would refuse to eat on that basis- not that BPs are finicky or anything.

[Nakoa]

Just a suggestion- don't do that. First, because snakes don't drink that much water, so most of that is wasted (being so diluted) in a bowl of water. Also, it's going to go bad (encourage bacteria in the water) if you don't change water daily.

Better way: Install the vitamin (whether it's powder or droplets) into the dead rodents mouth right before you offer it. I'm assuming you're feeding dead (f/t or fresh) rodents, but if not, don't bother doing this until it is. Live rodents have plenty of vitamins, & putting supplements on their fur- well, mostly that just falls off, but it also makes the rodent smell "different" & wouldn't you know it, some snakes would refuse to eat on that basis- not that BPs are finicky or anything.

There water does get changed daily because even though they didn't show signs of mites or I didn't see mites they definitely have them so water changes is daily right now, but if it's better for the vitamin to do it that way then I will,

The calcium powder I tend to just rub a bit into the butt end of the rodent.
They are f/T I was breeding my own rodents but the dust from them wasn't doing my own health any favours so had to give that up.
He has a great food response I went to change his water today he thought it was food and bit me lol I think everything we was told about how he wouldn't eat rodents etc was just rubbish and it's just blatant neglect but it's all evidence against him for the case against him if they intend to which is very likely.
Thank you though for all the advice iv had neglected animals in my care before but never this bad I cried when I saw him.

[Bogertophis]

There water does get changed daily because even though they didn't show signs of mites or I didn't see mites they definitely have them so water changes is daily right now, but if it's better for the vitamin to do it that way then I will,

The calcium powder I tend to just rub a bit into the butt end of the rodent.
They are f/T I was breeding my own rodents but the dust from them wasn't doing my own health any favours so had to give that up.
He has a great food response I went to change his water today he thought it was food and bit me lol I think everything we was told about how he wouldn't eat rodents etc was just rubbish and it's just blatant neglect but it's all evidence against him for the case against him if they intend to which is very likely.
Thank you though for all the advice iv had neglected animals in my care before but never this bad I cried when I saw him.

It's just that you'll get more of the vitamins INTO the snake this way (oral cavity of the rodent). You might have to pry open the dead rodents mouth a little so be careful, their teeth can be sharp.

If you know a snake definitely has mites, you need to address that quickly- they can multiply exponentially (NOT kidding!), & overwhelm (kill) a snake, just by the "little bit of blood" each one sucks out. Mites are also thought to spread disease among snakes.

It's so awful, the way some ppl neglect & mistreat animals.

[Malum Argenteum]

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.

*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

[Nakoa]

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.
*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

I do understand what you are saying, he is being given supplements via exotic vet recommendation and is under regular checks with them, they are at the moment believing that he has gone longer than a year without proper nutrition and its very likely he is lacking in a lot to keep him healthy, he is only being supplemented with a very small dose till they can take samples from him, the samples from the other snakes havent come back yet.

As for the mites they have been treated with frontline and currently with turrus mites to kill off any left alive and the stuff the turrus mites come in is always in the water bowls in the morning along with 1 or 2 dead mites.

[Bogertophis]

I would recommend against supplementing whole rodent prey.

The reason calcium supplements are provided (when they are indicated) is because herps require a balanced calcium and phosphorus intake to avoid elevated blood plasma levels of either; an imbalance throws the metabolic checks and balances into a tailspin. The ideal Ca/P ratio of reptile foods is understood to be 1.5/1. Rats are already 1.77/1; increasing the calcium is counterproductive (a person could use a CaPO4 based supplement, but in the absence of diagnosed need this would simply put more metabolic pressure on the animal to excrete the extra minerals; excess blood Ca and P are actively passed back into the digestive tract and excreted with stool). Calcium demand in a convalescing animal might be presumed to be minimal, anyway, since replacement of muscle mass and fat stores will probably be taking place much more than bone mass increase, giving yet another reason not to supplement Ca.

Sometimes the fact that younger rodents contain less Ca per unit of mass than do adult rodents is taken as evidence that those animals are calcium deficient as prey items. But since it is the ratio of Ca to P that is the relevant metric (and since there is no data on the P content of neonate rodents that I've been able to uncover, and in absence of a reason to think that the Ca/P ratio changes according to rodent age), it doesn't follow that supplementation is necessary.

Further, there's no reason to think that the amount of Vitamin A or D is insufficient in whole rodent prey (in fact, the amount of Vit A in adult rats and mice is thought to be right around overdose levels *), so increasing those levels isn't useful and runs the risk of hypervitaminosis. (Whether dosing B vitamins in a convalescent animal is a separate question, one that's almost certainly answered in the positive, but I don't know the dosing protocols for herps at all, and would recommend checking with an exotics vet for details).

Supplementation is quite necessary for insectivores, only since captive raised insect prey is well established to be deficient in Vit A and D, and has a very poor Ca/P ratio. This doesn't translate into the need for supplementation in whole-prey carnivores, though (and herbivores should get a somewhat different supplement mix because the deficiencies in their diet are different).

A bit of a tangent from the point of this thread, but a useful one I hope.

*https://nagonline.net/wp-content/upl...nal02May29.pdf

Thanks for sharing & clarifying all this information. Personally, I haven't supplemented my snake's food in many years. Mainly it was only when I bred some, & it was only an occasional thing- which is pretty much the same the way I take my own vitamins too- I try not to over-do it, as I eat very healthy foods for the most part.

[Albert Clark]

I was under the impression that most captive reptiles were calcium/ phosphorus deficient due to the inadequate uva/uvb light absorption from the sun. We provide artificial lighting to help supplement those reptiles that are diurnal so that the sub optimal calcium and phosphorus can be utilized. Ball pythons are underground and termite mound dwellers and are nocturnal so I don’t think they fall into the category normally. I thought the sunlight / artificial lighting was necessary for the uptake and utilization of calcium?