Kevin Hit 3.

[bns]

I'm not sure with carpets, but the videos I see of the snake catchers in Australia sure make me think they get pretty large in the wild.

Carpets, specifically coastal carpets have adapted very well to human encroachment. It seems the areas around homes provide a host of prey opportunities be it wild animals, or domestic dogs and cats.

They certainly seem large when the snake catchers show up.

The most beautiful boa I've seen is wrapped around somebody's leg in Vin Russo's book.

Huge and solid as rock. It was a Suri I believe.

I don't expect my female coastal to get much larger, yet she surprised me this last year with a growth spurt at 6 years old and now she's 7.

She's not a predictable eater, I typically try once a month these days but she goes longer too.

I'm reasonably confident I know the photo you are talking about, it was a friend of Gus R in the photo with his hands on the neck of a huge female boa.

You guys covered male combat and some other stuff so I'm going back to an earlier comment I made about 'big snakes eat big meals'. Gus R. talked about raising many boas to 8 feet on rats, but the ones that he raised to greater lengths required larger prey. It didn't have anything to do with nutrition, maybe something to do with calories but I don't think it was the amount of calories over the period of a year but the amount of calories per meal that did 'something'. A mature female BCO here grew more (length) on just 3 meals of 4+ pound rabbits in a year than the previous two years on rats. I've see similar results with other boa. IMO large meals activate something in their genes triggering growth.

I know my buddy Gio has this thread in Carpets but I know boas so I have to relate those observations and if he doesn't like it on his thread, too bad! Friend .

You always hear Suriname Guyana boa keepers talk about feeding mice the first year, not feeding too often, not feeding too large, etc...and its all true but how is it the largest bc on the planet are such slow starters? And how is it that even a 9-10 foot captive born Suriname/Guyana boa is very rare (let alone something really big)? Something happens to boas as they age and granted genetics are a factor as an individual boa, differences in other subs of boas (when the BCO were young in my care they could eat meals with ease that I wouldn't feed to a much larger non adult Suriname boa) and even location within a sub is a factor (I don't believe a Pokigron Suriname boa will reach the size of some of the Suriname boas brought into the country 35-40 years ago). As a boa matures they are more capable of eating large meals. As keepers most say meal size should be equal to their body width -a good practice for sure but mature boas thrive when going beyond this size guideline and can swallow larger prey with an ease they didn't have when they were younger. A mature 7 foot Pokigron Suriname eats rabbits over 2 pounds with ease but I never would have fed a meal as large (relative to size) when it was a younger snake.

I think males in some boa subs (areas of location) have the potential to reach large sizes but they don't. Import houses get in really big females once in a while but I've never heard of males that compare...why is that? I have a theory. As I said above, large meals trigger growth and as they mature they are capable of eating much larger prey as compared to percentage of body mass than when they were younger. That pertains to sex because the female boa is desperate after giving birth, eating anything she can fit in her pie hole that she crosses paths with and she is spending way more time looking for things to cross her path than a male. This combined with luck and years of being successful lead to a large female snake. Mature males in captivity (and I'd bet are similar in the wild) are about conserving resources (they are lazy). They hunt less and require much less food. Even non breeding females are wanting to be fed more than males in captivity.

Breeders may never noticed the ability for prey size increase in mature boas as it doesn't matter to them and I think other keepers who have observed it don't talk about it because they don't want to influence a keeper into doing something that is outside of their 'range'. I hesitate to post some of this food size 'stuff' because I don't want someone with a limited understanding to kill their boa. It is an absolute fact that increased calorie intake in a young boa will not give you a large, old boa and overfeeding an adult boa will only get you a fat adult...like my buddy Gio quoting Gus...the largest boas are the oldest.

[CloudtheBoa]

Very nice carpet there Gio! Happy birthday, Kevin! Looks like his any bdays are very close together. XD I was definitely thinking of a carpet before I got River, and if they get a tad bit bigger than boas, then maybe I'll have to consider carpets instead of retics. lmao I like the bigger snakes, but I don't think I could have too many Rivers. I didn't think they got anywhere near as big as has been discussed here, which is part of the reason I didn't get any yet. I thought they stayed about the same size or smaller than boa constrictors with some subspecies or localities sometimes getting up to 8'.

I'm reasonably confident I know the photo you are talking about, it was a friend of Gus R in the photo with his hands on the neck of a huge female boa.

You guys covered male combat and some other stuff so I'm going back to an earlier comment I made about 'big snakes eat big meals'. Gus R. talked about raising many boas to 8 feet on rats, but the ones that he raised to greater lengths required larger prey. It didn't have anything to do with nutrition, maybe something to do with calories but I don't think it was the amount of calories over the period of a year but the amount of calories per meal that did 'something'. A mature female BCO here grew more (length) on just 3 meals of 4+ pound rabbits in a year than the previous two years on rats. I've see similar results with other boa. IMO large meals activate something in their genes triggering growth.

I know my buddy Gio has this thread in Carpets but I know boas so I have to relate those observations and if he doesn't like it on his thread, too bad! Friend .

You always hear Suriname Guyana boa keepers talk about feeding mice the first year, not feeding too often, not feeding too large, etc...and its all true but how is it the largest bc on the planet are such slow starters? And how is it that even a 9-10 foot captive born Suriname/Guyana boa is very rare (let alone something really big)? Something happens to boas as they age and granted genetics are a factor as an individual boa, differences in other subs of boas (when the BCO were young in my care they could eat meals with ease that I wouldn't feed to a much larger non adult Suriname boa) and even location within a sub is a factor (I don't believe a Pokigron Suriname boa will reach the size of some of the Suriname boas brought into the country 35-40 years ago). As a boa matures they are more capable of eating large meals. As keepers most say meal size should be equal to their body width -a good practice for sure but mature boas thrive when going beyond this size guideline and can swallow larger prey with an ease they didn't have when they were younger. A mature 7 foot Pokigron Suriname eats rabbits over 2 pounds with ease but I never would have fed a meal as large (relative to size) when it was a younger snake.

I think males in some boa subs (areas of location) have the potential to reach large sizes but they don't. Import houses get in really big females once in a while but I've never heard of males that compare...why is that? I have a theory. As I said above, large meals trigger growth and as they mature they are capable of eating much larger prey as compared to percentage of body mass than when they were younger. That pertains to sex because the female boa is desperate after giving birth, eating anything she can fit in her pie hole that she crosses paths with and she is spending way more time looking for things to cross her path than a male. This combined with luck and years of being successful lead to a large female snake. Mature males in captivity (and I'd bet are similar in the wild) are about conserving resources (they are lazy). They hunt less and require much less food. Even non breeding females are wanting to be fed more than males in captivity.

Breeders may never noticed the ability for prey size increase in mature boas as it doesn't matter to them and I think other keepers who have observed it don't talk about it because they don't want to influence a keeper into doing something that is outside of their 'range'. I hesitate to post some of this food size 'stuff' because I don't want someone with a limited understanding to kill their boa. It is an absolute fact that increased calorie intake in a young boa will not give you a large, old boa and overfeeding an adult boa will only get you a fat adult...like my buddy Gio quoting Gus...the largest boas are the oldest.

Idk about you, but I feel it's pretty dang obvious a 4 lb rabbit is going to hit the growth spurts harder than a rat that might max out at 3 lbs if you're lucky. Feeding a boa 4 lb rabbit is quite like feeding it 4 jumbo rats a sitting instead of just one large. Of course it's going to have more growth, it's more food! Ime, if you keep the size of rabbits closer to the size of a rat you'd normally feed it...the growth is about the same, although they'll keep more body mass than with rats alone on a conservative schedule. My boas eating large rats start out on 1/2 lb rabbits, very roughly the same size as a large rat. I don't currently have a boa I'd consider feeding a 1 lb rabbit, let alone a 4 lb rabbit. My biggest is only 7', though, so she gets 1/2-3/4 lb rabbits, if she was closer to 8' maybe she'd get those 1 lb rabbits. Obviously, they can take larger, but I learned the hard way with Cloud that as little as 1-2 overly-large rabbits can put on a LOT of excess weight and not necessarily a ton of length growth. You want growth, but you don't want to make them fat, either.

Now it is interesting that more snakes aren't larger of any given species, as they do grow even on "small" amounts of food, and given time they grow no matter how far behind they're put with periods of low food intake. My 2010 male has grown half a foot in the 4 years he's been with me: and that's despite a roughly half year period of lowered food intake due to the overheating incident, and only getting a small rat every 3 weeks. I was not feeding him any more often than his typical 2-3 weeks (3 weeks more often than not nowadays) even when he was getting half-sized rats. Could it just be that there isn't a large population of mature enough individuals to show more of the massive side? Or maybe even genetics, like you say, if most of those are from populations or bloodlines with less size potential. But if food intake affects size I'm definitely interested to see how big my conservatively-fed snakes are in another 5 years, and to see how my more mature snakes continue to grow. Cloud only grows a couple inches every few years atm, and I didn't measure Dominika when I first got her so it'll be a few more years probably before I'll notice any (IF any) growth from her. She has put on at least a pound of weight since the day I got her and that's despite slimming down her girth, so I expect she did grow a few inches since I got her, I just wasn't keeping track.

[bns]

...Idk about you, but I feel it's pretty dang obvious a 4 lb rabbit is going to hit the growth spurts harder than a rat that might max out at 3 lbs if you're lucky.Feeding a boa 4 lb rabbit is quite like feeding it 4 jumbo rats a sitting instead of just one large. Of course it's going to have more growth, it's more food! Ime, if you keep the size of rabbits closer to the size of a rat you'd normally feed it...the growth is about the same, although they'll keep more body mass than with rats alone on a conservative schedule. My boas eating large rats start out on 1/2 lb rabbits, very roughly the same size as a large rat. I don't currently have a boa I'd consider feeding a 1 lb rabbit, let alone a 4 lb rabbit. My biggest is only 7', though, so she gets 1/2-3/4 lb rabbits, if she was closer to 8' maybe she'd get those 1 lb rabbits. Obviously, they can take larger, but I learned the hard way with Cloud that as little as 1-2 overly-large rabbits can put on a LOT of excess weight and not necessarily a ton of length growth. You want growth, but you don't want to make them fat, either.

I'm not sure if you understand (exactly) what I'm relaying or not because it is not obvious...One would think that X calories equals X growth and while that is the case with immature boa it is not the case with adult boa and even less the case with mature boa. I'm talking about the same amount of food. -Fed the same amount of calories...XX number of lean rats spread out over a year equal to 12lbs of rabbit...or feeding three 4lb rabbit over the same amount of time does not have the same growth affect on an adult boa. Its even less intuitive but when one feeds conservatively and provides long winters without food (3-5 months) the large meal growth affect is even more pronounced in mature adults.

I don't know what 'Cloud' is but if you are feeding on a schedule year round and gave it a couple extra meals or missed the metabolism shift as it passed sexual maturity, I could see how that would lead to being fat. While a year round feeding schedule is less than ideal it can be done but any year round feeding schedule needs to be closely watched to make adjustments. A mature 7 footer (BCO/BCC/BCI) here will eat 2lb rabbits with ease. Mature being the key word. Again, I don't know what Cloud is and I'm not typing any of this to challenge anyone...just providing observations for keepers with an interest.

Now it is interesting that more snakes aren't larger of any given species, as they do grow even on "small" amounts of food, and given time they grow no matter how far behind they're put with periods of low food intake. My 2010 male has grown half a foot in the 4 years he's been with me: and that's despite a roughly half year period of lowered food intake due to the overheating incident, and only getting a small rat every 3 weeks. I was not feeding him any more often than his typical 2-3 weeks (3 weeks more often than not nowadays) even when he was getting half-sized rats. Could it just be that there isn't a large population of mature enough individuals to show more of the massive side? Or maybe even genetics, like you say, if most of those are from populations or bloodlines with less size potential.

Genetics/location/seasons (periods without food or greatly reduced food)/sex/and prey size are all factors affecting size of a boa.

But if food intake affects size I'm definitely interested to see how big my conservatively-fed snakes are in another 5 years, and to see how my more mature snakes continue to grow. Cloud only grows a couple inches every few years atm, and I didn't measure Dominika when I first got her so it'll be a few more years probably before I'll notice any (IF any) growth from her. She has put on at least a pound of weight since the day I got her and that's despite slimming down her girth, so I expect she did grow a few inches since I got her, I just wasn't keeping track.

A conservatively fed boa means different things to different folks. If you are feeding your boas smallish meals year round (some would call this conservatively) as adults they will continue to grow slowly as all reptiles do but a boa kept in this manner (except the rare gene) will not be as large (read long) of a boa kept differently on a conservative schedule. -A boa fed small meals year round is much less likely to attain the same length of a boa provided seasons with an ever increasing (relative) prey size even if the same calories are fed.

[CloudtheBoa]

I'm not sure if you understand (exactly) what I'm relaying or not because it is not obvious...One would think that X calories equals X growth and while that is the case with immature boa it is not the case with adult boa and even less the case with mature boa. I'm talking about the same amount of food. -Fed the same amount of calories...XX number of lean rats spread out over a year equal to 12lbs of rabbit...or feeding three 4lb rabbit over the same amount of time does not have the same growth affect on an adult boa. Its even less intuitive but when one feeds conservatively and provides long winters without food (3-5 months) the large meal growth affect is even more pronounced in mature adults.

I don't know what 'Cloud' is but if you are feeding on a schedule year round and gave it a couple extra meals or missed the metabolism shift as it passed sexual maturity, I could see how that would lead to being fat. While a year round feeding schedule is less than ideal it can be done but any year round feeding schedule needs to be closely watched to make adjustments. A mature 7 footer (BCO/BCC/BCI) here will eat 2lb rabbits with ease. Mature being the key word. Again, I don't know what Cloud is and I'm not typing any of this to challenge anyone...just providing observations for keepers with an interest.



Genetics/location/seasons (periods without food or greatly reduced food)/sex/and prey size are all factors affecting size of a boa.


A conservatively fed boa means different things to different folks. If you are feeding your boas smallish meals year round (some would call this conservatively) as adults they will continue to grow slowly as all reptiles do but a boa kept in this manner (except the rare gene) will not be as large (read long) of a boa kept differently on a conservative schedule. -A boa fed small meals year round is much less likely to attain the same length of a boa provided seasons with an ever increasing (relative) prey size even if the same calories are fed.

I would not inherently guess feeding a snake the same amount of food it'd eat in 3 months for one feeding to equate to a certain amount of growth. Surely, if you were to feed a snake a 4 lb rabbit every 3 months (assuming your snake would eat that much in that short a time frame), the snake would use just what it needed at the time and store the rest as fat? Fat, especially in snakes, takes a LOT of time to burn and convert to energy, so by the time it gets its next 4 lb meal it has yet to use any of that stored fat...I *personally* would assume a snake to utilize the calories from a 4 lb rabbit every 3 months differently than it would utilize 4 lbs of rabbit spread over 3 meals in a 3 month span. But that's what I would have assumed.

I guess you can't see my signature if you're using mobile. :/ Cloud is my 2011 BI. Back before I joined this forum, he was fed every week, year round, and even as much as 5 days the first year. I would see 1"-3" of growth every single week. But that growth only went on for so long before the frequent (and sometimes large) meals stopped resulting in so much rapid growth. Even before I started implementing his current seasonal, conservative schedule, his growth hit a rapid plateau. And yes, he was definitely fat during that time until this forum set me straight and I drastically changed his feeding. I was feeding him at this heightened pace for about the first 2.5 years of his life, so technically between his abnormally large size for his age at the time, and being past the minimum 18 month maturity for a male, I was pushing food into him past maturity. So, you do bring up a good point, and I wonder how that growth would have been impacted had I kept on with the large meals and fed seasonally. Would he still have hit a plateau? My intuition would say yes, but that may not necessarily reflect reality - regardless I am very hesitant to attempt it with any of my snakes, pythons, boas, or otherwise. Nowadays, he's 6'8" and he eats maybe 9 meals a year. Meaning, if he got a 1/2 lb rabbit every single meal that's only 4.5 lbs for the entire year. But realistically, he gets less than that, as most of his meals are rats below 300 grams to avoid fatty prey items. I only use the rabbits to help pad him over his winter fast and get him started after I end it.

My 7' female could probably take a 2+ lb rabbit with little fuss, but I prefer not to give her even a 1 lb rabbit. She also gets 1/2 lb rabbits, with the occasional large 3/4 lb. I have given her one or two 1-1.5 lb rabbits just to use them up - I forgot to bring my scale when I picked up the rabbits and they were 3x the size I would have liked. The 1-1.5 lb rabbits left quite noticeable, large bulges in her, and I prefer to give her meals that you can't see a bulge so I quickly stopped that. Now I'm feeding a couple of those to my ~11.5' retic, as she seems to do best on a 2-3 lb meal. I would never consider giving my 7' boa a 2 lb rabbit, even if she were to only eat those 3 times a year - as said above, I think a snake utilizes moderately-sized meals on a more frequent schedule better than they would a large meal a couple times a year. My bp definitely hit heavier weights eating a small rat every 2-3 weeks vs a medium rat every 2 months - which he'd do of his own accord despite me offering every other week (or less if he was going on a 4-6 month fast like he liked to do for about 3-4 years). (Edit to add: yes, she is fed seasonally as well: though I am feeding her year round this year as I attempted to breed her, and I'll want her eating after she gives birth - if she does.)

[bns]

I would not inherently guess feeding a snake the same amount of food it'd eat in 3 months for one feeding to equate to a certain amount of growth. Surely, if you were to feed a snake a 4 lb rabbit every 3 months (assuming your snake would eat that much in that short a time frame), the snake would use just what it needed at the time and store the rest as fat? Fat, especially in snakes, takes a LOT of time to burn and convert to energy, so by the time it gets its next 4 lb meal it has yet to use any of that stored fat...I *personally* would assume a snake to utilize the calories from a 4 lb rabbit every 3 months differently than it would utilize 4 lbs of rabbit spread over 3 meals in a 3 month span. But that's what I would have assumed.

Excess is stored as fat. The difference in how that store is used is what I'm talking about. Large infrequent meals with seasonal fasting triggers stores to be used as growth vs many small meals that are more likely to be stored as fat and not used towards growth. (-This depends on age, seasonality etc -covered that earlier...)

I guess you can't see my signature if you're using mobile. :/ Cloud is my 2011 BI. Back before I joined this forum, he was fed every week, year round, and even as much as 5 days the first year. I would see 1"-3" of growth every single week. But that growth only went on for so long before the frequent (and sometimes large) meals stopped resulting in so much rapid growth. Even before I started implementing his current seasonal, conservative schedule, his growth hit a rapid plateau. And yes, he was definitely fat during that time until this forum set me straight and I drastically changed his feeding. I was feeding him at this heightened pace for about the first 2.5 years of his life, so technically between his abnormally large size for his age at the time, and being past the minimum 18 month maturity for a male, I was pushing food into him past maturity. So, you do bring up a good point, and I wonder how that growth would have been impacted had I kept on with the large meals and fed seasonally. Would he still have hit a plateau?

Yes, he would have hit a plateau but it would have occurred years later.

My intuition would say yes, but that may not necessarily reflect reality - regardless I am very hesitant to attempt it with any of my snakes, pythons, boas, or otherwise. Nowadays, he's 6'8" and he eats maybe 9 meals a year. Meaning, if he got a 1/2 lb rabbit every single meal that's only 4.5 lbs for the entire year. But realistically, he gets less than that, as most of his meals are rats below 300 grams to avoid fatty prey items. I only use the rabbits to help pad him over his winter fast and get him started after I end it.

Sounds about right to me.

(Edit to add: yes, she is fed seasonally as well: though I am feeding her year round this year as I attempted to breed her, and I'll want her eating after she gives birth - if she does.)

Why the change?

[CloudtheBoa]

Excess is stored as fat. The difference in how that store is used is what I'm talking about. Large infrequent meals with seasonal fasting triggers stores to be used as growth vs many small meals that are more likely to be stored as fat and not used towards growth. (-This depends on age, seasonality etc -covered that earlier...)



Yes, he would have hit a plateau but it would have occurred years later.


Sounds about right to me.

Why the change?

If a snake uses a larger percentage of smaller meal once a month, would they not have less excess to store vs a large meal every 3 months? And then, if they're fed seasonally, have even less excess either way? I suppose maybe feeding mainly smaller meals throughout the year, with one or two big meals leading up to a fast would also be a valid approach, at least for some individuals.

And yes, I definitely notice a difference between my conservatively-fed boas and Cloud when I first got them. Two 2015's and a 2016, none of which have reached a plateau in growth yet, though none have reached 6' yet. In fact, this year they've been hitting record growth rates.

I changed Dominika's feeding, because everyone seemed to agree they should get smaller more frequent meals during courtship and while gravid. And since her gravid period is going to line up with her usual fasting period...she'll be eating this winter. By the time she were to give birth and had enough meals in her to get her back up to shape, we'll be back into spring. She's not due until end of Nov or early Dec. BUT...if she proves not to have become gravid by end of December I'll give her a few normal sized meals and then fast her the remaining couple months of winter.

[bns]

If a snake uses a larger percentage of smaller meal once a month, would they not have less excess to store vs a large meal every 3 months? And then, if they're fed seasonally, have even less excess either way? I suppose maybe feeding mainly smaller meals throughout the year, with one or two big meals leading up to a fast would also be a valid approach, at least for some individuals.

I'm telling you what I observe...with a similar amount of calories, a boa fed larger meals with seasonality (etc.) uses those calories differently...it will get longer than it's small meal counterpart.

And yes, I definitely notice a difference between my conservatively-fed boas and Cloud when I first got them. Two 2015's and a 2016, none of which have reached a plateau in growth yet, though none have reached 6' yet. In fact, this year they've been hitting record growth rates.

This sounds like you are doing great...

I changed Dominika's feeding, because everyone seemed to agree they should get smaller more frequent meals during courtship and while gravid. And since her gravid period is going to line up with her usual fasting period...she'll be eating this winter. By the time she were to give birth and had enough meals in her to get her back up to shape, we'll be back into spring. She's not due until end of Nov or early Dec. BUT...if she proves not to have become gravid by end of December I'll give her a few normal sized meals and then fast her the remaining couple months of winter.

I don't feed during courtship...Boas breed during the cool season or just after depending on sub, that coincides with the not eating season. -Same as in the wild. (It's not as important with BCI after many generations in captivity though).
Feeding too near parturition can kill babies. -Be careful.

Good luck.