Spider wobble

[Bogertophis]

Would they rationalize the same way with a human life? ...

Exactly! For those of you who have kids, & those of you that plan to, would YOU mind if your kid's head shook? Or would you rather it didn't? If you could prevent
it, wouldn't you?

[PitOnTheProwl]

Would they rationalize the same way with a human life?


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They actually already do...... I know couple that have had a disabled child and tried again with the same results...

[WhompingWillow]

This thread is veering wildly off course.

[zina10]

I'm not one to promote breeding animals that cannot live pain free, or where the chance that the offspring has a fatal defect is high...just to get that one special one.

That said, (hey, that's becoming a favorite thing to say, LOL) MOST of nowadays morphs wouldn't survive in the wild. Simply because they can't camouflage very well. So should we breed none ? Or only the ones that look mostly normal ?

Lets take this further, what kind of dog breed would survive in the wild ? Even the ones established hundreds of years ago ? How about English bulldogs or flat nosed breeds and their breathing issues? Genetic heart issues in some breeds ? Extremely tiny dogs with holes in the skulls that won't close, extremely large breeds that don't live long because their hearts can't support that mass for long? How about all the other breeds in between ?

How about our "domesticated" birds ?

And please, lets not get into what "breedings" would be moral or immoral in human beings, that is a very slippery slope. Many people that have some genetic issues still want children, even though sometimes there is a small chance the child will inherit it. Who am I to say only perfect specimen can "breed" ? How about only pretty people? Strong ones ? How about we forbid those obese people to breed, there is a genetic factor and we all know they aren't the strongest and prettiest. Yes, I know how that sounds, and I'm being sarcastic.

Point being, esp. with Ball Pythons, the entire "morph craze" did nothing but good things for that species, really. They used to get imported by the hundred thousands. For each one that actually made it to the US alive, there were probably 10 that died between capture and getting here. The ones that made it, sick, stressed, parasite ridden, fearful ...Let's just say the majority didn't live very long. It was a huge throw-away industry.

Thanks to the morph craze there are now so very many captive bred and healthy BP's that there is no need to pick them off and import them in those huge numbers. So if anything, that will have helped the wild population.
And normals aren't going away anytime soon, should we ever need to breed to re-introduce into the wild. As a matter of fact, most species die out BECAUSE their wild is declining. Their habitat is shrinking. There is nowhere for them to go. So keeping a healthy captive bred population is a good thing.

Most morphs are very pretty and unique. I find many Normals prettier then some morphs, too, though. Beauty is truly in the eye of the Beholder. And it is fun that there is so much to choose from.

Honestly, I find that most opponents to the spiders are those who have never owned one, or only seen the bad ones. Its simply the most known about and recognizable issue with BP's. It is also actually the least bothersome to the snake, unless you have a severe one. If you keep those snakes for many years, you tend to learn a bit about them. You learn to recognize stress. Or when something is wrong with them. They can be tense, relaxed. Hiding, cruising. Cruising for food, cruising for stress. Be curious, be fearful. Some people see a sweet snake, when really it is a terrified and shy one that doesn't dare to move.

The spiders I've come across personally, and even owned for 7 years, were absolutely awesome snakes in all regards. Would have been a shame had they never existed. I never owned any of the other morphs that can have genetic issues, so I can't say how their quality of life is affected.

To me that is what it comes down to, quality of life. Pain free.

Some could say flat nosed dog breeds shouldn't exist or be allowed to die out. Or all the dogs that wouldn't make it in the wild.

Opinions are opinions, though. And everyone is entitled to their own

[Jellybeans]

As long as there is a demand they will continue to be bred just like any other animal

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[zina10]

To often we only see the hatchlings or young snakes. Most morphs look absolutely stunning when young, only to get a bit duller with age.

So here a few pics of a spider morph that actually has a few years on her.


As a hatchling:





enjoying the outdoors as a youngster:





always up for some time out without showing the smallest signs of stress at all





as a adult , several years old, still enjoying time out..











Lots of fun with this girl that is just as easy going as can be














and here, glowing with impending motherhood








She is now 9 years old, as sweet as can be, continues to give her new owner as much joy as she has me. Its now his wife's favorite snake, the only one she isn't nervous about.


Of course you can have that with ANY snake. Any morph or even a normal, if you get lucky enough to end up with one that has that health and personality.

My point is just that spiders aren't automatically doomed snakes with horrible lives. Most live perfectly normal lives, as that defect doesn't cause pain nor does it keep them from eating. The severe cases may even have additional factors going on. Perhaps to much stress in their lives (given how many BP's altogether do, not far fetched) not the correct husbandry, to hot, to cold, starved, subjected to mites, disease, fumes, who knows...

I have opted not to introduce any spiders into my upcoming breedings because I do not want to take the chance that I may end up with a severe one. But I have no issues with those breeding them, as I know most are great snakes.

With that large of a choice of BP's, its easy to avoid getting a certain morph, if one is morally opposed to it. There is nothing wrong with not agreeing with certain breedings and to avoid them.

and yes, I loved the chance of showing off Maya She is awesome in all regards !!

[Jbabycsx]

To often we only see the hatchlings or young snakes. Most morphs look absolutely stunning when young, only to get a bit duller with age.

So here a few pics of a spider morph that actually has a few years on her.


As a hatchling:





enjoying the outdoors as a youngster:





always up for some time out without showing the smallest signs of stress at all





as a adult , several years old, still enjoying time out..











Lots of fun with this girl that is just as easy going as can be














and here, glowing with impending motherhood








She is now 9 years old, as sweet as can be, continues to give her new owner as much joy as she has me. Its now his wife's favorite snake, the only one she isn't nervous about.


Of course you can have that with ANY snake. Any morph or even a normal, if you get lucky enough to end up with one that has that health and personality.

My point is just that spiders aren't automatically doomed snakes with horrible lives. Most live perfectly normal lives, as that defect doesn't cause pain nor does it keep them from eating. The severe cases may even have additional factors going on. Perhaps to much stress in their lives (given how many BP's altogether do, not far fetched) not the correct husbandry, to hot, to cold, starved, subjected to mites, disease, fumes, who knows...

I have opted not to introduce any spiders into my upcoming breedings because I do not want to take the chance that I may end up with a severe one. But I have no issues with those breeding them, as I know most are great snakes.

With that large of a choice of BP's, its easy to avoid getting a certain morph, if one is morally opposed to it. There is nothing wrong with not agreeing with certain breedings and to avoid them.

and yes, I loved the chance of showing off Maya She is awesome in all regards !!

She is a beautiful snake! I agree that they are beautiful and make great pets.

I do have to disagree with something you said about dogs being bred with certain negative traits, especially the English Bulldog breed. DNA tests have been done to find out the history of the breed and determine where it comes from. It turns out that the cause of the health issues comes from severe inbreeding by breeders and a small selection of ancestors. I think you would find that almost all the breeds you’re thinking of have been bred by breeders to become what they are today so no, they wouldn’t survive in the wild because they were never in the wild to begin with. They were bred by humans for certain physical traits without regard to health.


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[zina10]

Don't see the disagreement there.

Breeds like English Bulldogs have health issues. Not all have severe health issues. But they are there. I owned 2 of them, and they came from quality lines, I do my home work. But no matter if you get the healthiest one, they cannot breathe like a dog with a normal nose. A xray will explain why.

I still love them, though, and so do many other people.

My point was, many people easily jump on the wagon of saying this or that isn't right. Unless it hits to close to home. Its easy to say we should only breed what is strong and could survive in the wild. But really, what do we breed that could? Yet, we love our pets and livestock. I can't imagine life without them.

Also easy to say people that aren't perfect shouldn't have children, but really, where does that stop? People with obvious genetic defects? Hidden ones? Traits?

All I'm saying, its not really black and while. There is a lot of grey.

I have to say, I really like how everyone is stating opinions respectfully. This is how it should be. We don't all have to agree, but our love for those animals is what we all share, and this place and its members are so great to share it with Whether we agree or respectfully disagree

[Jbabycsx]

Don't see the disagreement there.

Breeds like English Bulldogs have health issues. Not all have severe health issues. But they are there. I owned 2 of them, and they came from quality lines, I do my home work. But no matter if you get the healthiest one, they cannot breathe like a dog with a normal nose. A xray will explain why.

I still love them, though, and so do many other people.

My point was, many people easily jump on the wagon of saying this or that isn't right. Unless it hits to close to home. Its easy to say we should only breed what is strong and could survive in the wild. But really, what do we breed that could? Yet, we love our pets and livestock. I can't imagine life without them.

Also easy to say people that aren't perfect shouldn't have children, but really, where does that stop? People with obvious genetic defects? Hidden ones? Traits?

All I'm saying, its not really black and while. There is a lot of grey.

I have to say, I really like how everyone is stating opinions respectfully. This is how it should be. We don't all have to agree, but our love for those animals is what we all share, and this place and its members are so great to share it with Whether we agree or respectfully disagree

I can promise you I’ll never disrespect anyone here! I just enjoy hearing different opinions on things. And what you said is true, we all love our pets, regardless of their faults.


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[Ditto]

Really enjoying reading through this discussion, thought I might put in my two cents
I personally disagree with the purposeful breeding of animals with the potential of crippling defects. Not all spiders/other bps with defects show signs, but I think just the possibility of the having severe defects is enough to not want to breed them, even if some of them are normal, healthy animals. And I know there's a chance of any animal being born with a serious defect, but the chances are much lower. I might be in the minority here but in my opinion breeders knowing that there are high chances of an animal they're breeding to be born with a disability and still decide to breed seem kind of unethical to me. They are beautiful animals but if we're sacrificing their health for that, I can't justify supporting that.

I'm not going to say much about dogs (specifically flat faced varieties) because I don't want to get too off topic, but I wholeheartedly appose breeding them. I've seen first hand how bad their health problems can be , most of my extended family is obsessed with flat faced dogs and I've watched too many of their dogs pass away too early because of breed related issues. My parents have a pug currently who is blind and deaf, has had countless ear, face and eye infections and can barely breathe. He's a sweet dog and I love him but I feel so sad for him because he should not have been bred like this (and he came from a good, reputable breeder).

And just for the record, I'm not by any means trying to say people who breed or buy these animals are bad people, I'm sure most of them are lovely, but I do strongly disagree with their practices