Personal Opinions on Spiders

[JodanOrNoDan]

My Spiders that actively wobble when excited or during feeding seem to suffer no ill effects other than the occasional weak/missed strikes, 99.5% of the time they are asymptomatic.

Any Spider morph I produce with passive wobble gets culled immediately regardless of value/genetics. I'm not for weakening bloodlines or propagating defective pets.

So you cull every one of them?

I have been away from the board for awhile. When I decided I needed to get back on here I made a decision to halt rumors and stop the propagation of false facts. When I know the facts, I am going to speak and when I don't I am going to shut up.

Spider Morph

I have quite a few at this point, and have hatched many more. I originally avoided this animal because of many of the falsehoods surrounding it. The following is what I believe to be the truth.

1. Spider is a defect. There is no debating that. It is most likely a neurological problem that demonstrates itself by the snake not being able to keep its head oriented.

2. It cannot be bred out other than by crossing it to a blackhead, and then you end up with a snake that no longer looks like a spider. This indicates the visual changes are "hard linked" to the neuro defect.

3. Spiders have less eating problems than other bp's. False. My numbers show the same ratios as other morphs.

4. Spiders like different temps than other BP's. False.

5. Spiders are better behaved than others. False. Jerk spiders come in the same ratio as other jerk snakes.

6. Non-wobbling, severe-wobbling. etc. No such thing. If they are a spider they wobble. I can get a severe wobbling snake to stop and I can get a non-severe wobbling one to demonstrate a severe wobble.

7. Younger spiders in my observation have less muscle definition in the neck which makes controlling the head more difficult. Visual wobble decreases with improved muscle definition.

8. They absolutely do eat, poop, and breed to the same degree as any other bp. There is no indication that they are in pain or even care that they have an issue.

9. The degree of the wobble is in direct proportion to how excited and or stressed the animal is.

10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

11. Spider cannot survive in the wild. This is kaka. The original spider was wild caught.

The following is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. My favorite animals happen to be spiders. Not because of what they look like but because they are "better" pets. Let's face it, bp's display little to no indication about how they are "feeling". The defect in the Spider bp gives you a not so subtle visual indicator into the snake's mental state. A corkscrewing spider is either upset about something or it is really flipping hungry. When I experiment with husbandry, I almost always use spiders because I know when something is wrong. If the animal is displaying more than a minor twitch something is up. For jerk spiders, it is very easy to tell when the animal wants to tag you.

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

[Slicercrush]

So you cull every one of them?

I have been away from the board for awhile. When I decided I needed to get back on here I made a decision to halt rumors and stop the propagation of false facts. When I know the facts, I am going to speak and when I don't I am going to shut up.

Spider Morph

I have quite a few at this point, and have hatched many more. I originally avoided this animal because of many of the falsehoods surrounding it. The following is what I believe to be the truth.

1. Spider is a defect. There is no debating that. It is most likely a neurological problem that demonstrates itself by the snake not being able to keep its head oriented.

2. It cannot be bred out other than by crossing it to a blackhead, and then you end up with a snake that no longer looks like a spider. This indicates the visual changes are "hard linked" to the neuro defect.

3. Spiders have less eating problems than other bp's. False. My numbers show the same ratios as other morphs.

4. Spiders like different temps than other BP's. False.

5. Spiders are better behaved than others. False. Jerk spiders come in the same ratio as other jerk snakes.

6. Non-wobbling, severe-wobbling. etc. No such thing. If they are a spider they wobble. I can get a severe wobbling snake to stop and I can get a non-severe wobbling one to demonstrate a severe wobble.

7. Younger spiders in my observation have less muscle definition in the neck which makes controlling the head more difficult. Visual wobble decreases with improved muscle definition.

8. They absolutely do eat, poop, and breed to the same degree as any other bp. There is no indication that they are in pain or even care that they have an issue.

9. The degree of the wobble is in direct proportion to how excited and or stressed the animal is.

10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

11. Spider cannot survive in the wild. This is kaka. The original spider was wild caught.

The following is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. My favorite animals happen to be spiders. Not because of what they look like but because they are "better" pets. Let's face it, bp's display little to no indication about how they are "feeling". The defect in the Spider bp gives you a not so subtle visual indicator into the snake's mental state. A corkscrewing spider is either upset about something or it is really flipping hungry. When I experiment with husbandry, I almost always use spiders because I know when something is wrong. If the animal is displaying more than a minor twitch something is up. For jerk spiders, it is very easy to tell when the animal wants to tag you.

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

I love seeing more opinions on this thread!

Ive done quite a bit of research since this was last discussed, and I can say for sure many other spider owners argue many of the same points you have. Just to make it clear, i didnt make this thread because i was against/for owning spiders, i was more curious on the general opinion of other hobbyists.

Spiders are still high on my wanted morph list, and lord knows if i see a cool spider morph at White Plains in 3 weeks, ill surely be picking it up to fill that 2nd rack thats waiting empty

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[skydnay]

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

I think this is a really good point. I haven't owned BPs for very long, but upon first getting into them, I was bombarded with a ton of information about how "bad" the spider gene and wobble are for BPs, complete with informational videoed with sad background music. This was alarming, because spiders were so accessible and immediately became my favorite gene. I read some more and found varying opinions on the gene, and finally decided to go ahead and get one for myself.

I have a very happy spider enchi ghost who rarely wobbles, except when striking at his food. Like Jordan points out, it's easy to tell that he is because of the lack of wobble. My other BPs just sit there, so Whiskey is a nice visual reminder that I'm doing pretty well by them.

Also, I understand that an animal behaving erratically is usually alarming, but I've been thinking of wobble as similar to the disorder in cats and dogs that causes them to be unable to balance. There's plenty of videos showing that these animals are healthy and in no pain, they just fall over a lot, especially when excited.

[paulh]

....

10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

....

The above quote is the only part of JodanOrNoDan's post I have a problem with. And that is because it can be interpreted in several ways:

1. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, one or both adults is certain to die before the eggs are laid. This is false. Mortality is no worse than when a spider ball python is mated to a normal. And, of course, all ball pythons die sooner or later.

2. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, all of the eggs will die before hatching. This is false.

3. Here is what is true, to the best of my knowledge and experience with lethal genes in other species. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two spider genes, 2/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with a spider gene paired with a normal gene, and 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two normal genes. Embryos having a spider gene paired with a normal gene hatch out as spider ball pythons. Embryos having two normal genes hatch out as normal (non-spider) ball pythons. These spider and normal ball pythons have the same survival chances as spider and normal ball pythons from a spider ball python x normal mating. Embryos having two spider genes die before hatching.

If I wanted to mate two spider ball pythons, I would do it. Your mileage may vary.

[Ashe9]

Let me start off by saying that I have a fire spider. Most of the time, he doesn’t seem to have any issues. Other times, he wobbles so bad that he lays on his back. I don’t have any problems with different paint jobs, but I think it is completely unethical to breed a snake for its paint job while sacrificing its health. Yes, many spiders barely have a wobble, but I don’t think this matters. We have no way of talking to these snakes and seeing really how badly they are affected by the wobble. For all we know, it could cause plenty of other problems that we have no way of seeing. Just because they shed and poop and eat well doesn’t mean they don’t have neurological problems that we can’t see. And that’s just not worth the risk to me.

A video on this issue that I agree with: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uflWWZhmoYM&t=513s

[the_rotten1]

We may not have a way of talking to snakes, but we can read their body language. After working with snakes for awhile you get a sense for how they feel. A snake that is comfortable will have a relaxed body posture, move at a steady pace, and flick it's tongue to sniff the air. When a snake is uncomfortable they will tense their muscles, pull away quickly, and maybe even strike or ball up if they feel threatened.

Often, I can tell that my snakes are uncomfortable before I notice signs that they're going into shed. I notice the differences in their behavior before I notice color changes. I'll open a cage and think "so-and-so isn't herself today" and then notice she has a pink belly. Or I'll realize that one of my snakes isn't moving much, and then I'll see that his pattern is darker than normal.

Spiders don't exhibit the defensive behaviors of a snake that is uncomfortable, unless there is something making them uncomfortable. A snake that is uncomfortable doesn't move around much. You can see this in snakes that are injured, in shed, or gravid. They like to stay put for the most part and when they move they do it slowly. If spiders were in constant pain, you'd expect them to act like that all the time, but they don't do it anymore often than any other snake. I've only seen them act defensive when in shed or gravid.

Even if you believe that the pain is only concurrent with the wobble, it would likely make them slow down and stop, which is not something I've observed with wobblers. Usually they just keep going. They're disoriented, not in pain.

Beyond that, I think it's absolutely asinine for people to assert that spiders shouldn't be bred just because they have one (or have seen one) that has a severe wobble. I am sorry that those snakes have problems, but I don't think it a few bad examples outweigh the multitudes of spiders out there that are healthy pets and breeders. I don't see how your wobbling fire spider means that I shouldn't breed my female spider who has thus far produced healthy offspring.

"We can't talk to them" is never going to be a valid argument to me, because all it proves is that you don't understand your own snake. Cats and dogs can't talk either, but people still seem to recognize when they're in pain.

[Jmarshall]

First off I am a complete newbie and first time owner. I have never owned nor handled a spider so take this with a grain of salt.. as far as ethics are concerned I feel I have an opinion on the matter tho.. I would ask myself this question. Is there a chance that the neurological problem bothers, causes pain, or otherwise negatively affects the snakes? If the answer is yes, then I would be opposed. They could be completely unaffected but if you answer yes then you believe there is a chance it could lead to a poor quality of life, why do it? Again just my opinion and I am new to this so take from it what you will.

Essentially i I think it comes down to the individual and there beliefs on the issue.

[Lord Sorril]

I have been away from the board for awhile. When I decided I needed to get back on here I made a decision to halt rumors and stop the propagation of false facts. When I know the facts, I am going to speak and when I don't I am going to shut up.

Please link unbiased Sources and Statistics for your Facts. I would be interested in reading them.

[JodanOrNoDan]

The above quote is the only part of JodanOrNoDan's post I have a problem with. And that is because it can be interpreted in several ways:

1. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, one or both adults is certain to die before the eggs are laid. This is false. Mortality is no worse than when a spider ball python is mated to a normal. And, of course, all ball pythons die sooner or later.

2. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, all of the eggs will die before hatching. This is false.

3. Here is what is true, to the best of my knowledge and experience with lethal genes in other species. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two spider genes, 2/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with a spider gene paired with a normal gene, and 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two normal genes. Embryos having a spider gene paired with a normal gene hatch out as spider ball pythons. Embryos having two normal genes hatch out as normal (non-spider) ball pythons. These spider and normal ball pythons have the same survival chances as spider and normal ball pythons from a spider ball python x normal mating. Embryos having two spider genes die before hatching.

If I wanted to mate two spider ball pythons, I would do it. Your mileage may vary.

Yes, all this is correct. I was too lazy to type it though. I maybe should have clarified. Having spider on both sides of the ladder is lethal. I don't do the cross because I do not want my females producing non-viable embryos if it can be prevented.

[JodanOrNoDan]

Please link unbiased Sources and Statistics for your Facts. I would be interested in reading them.

Good luck with unbiased sources. You cannot quantify it because the people that can have a valid opinion on the gene is a person that owns at least one. If I remember correctly, doing personal research on the gene is how I found this place. Every piece of information I have comes from other breeders and my own personal experience. No one is going to spend the money to do a proper study of these animals, there is not enough interest to get funding as far as I know.

This is one of the main reasons I am on the board. I want to discuss and exchange information with other hobby breeders. Once again, it is not scientific. After awhile you learn who knows their business and who is operating with an agenda. As far as I know, there are not any breeders here that have an agenda. There are not many large breeders if any here and those would be the ones that would be most likely to develop an agenda due to the money involved. There are a lot of dirt bags in the pet industry as a whole. I personally don't buy anything from any of the the "big boys" any more

There is a least on breeder here that totally stopped breeding spiders for various reasons. I personally will continue. I like the product and they will sell regardless of what people want to believe about them. I have no agenda. I could stop breeding spiders tomorrow and it would make very little difference to my bottom line. I could stop breeding snakes entirely and my quality of life would not change. This may be my first year I am solidly in the black.