Spider Ball Python feeding trouble

[SherlockAstral]

I have a male spider banana ball python. His name is Custard and I've owned him for a little over a year. I imagine he's only a year and a half, and around 2 feet, 7 inches in length. I have yet to weigh him, but he shows no signs of being overweight.

His temps are high 80s in his warm spot (with belly heater), and low 70s on his cold spot. The ambient humidity is usually high 50s to mid 60s in the winter, mid 60s to mid 70s in the summer. Both sides have adequate hiding spots and his tank is 30 gallons. I use aspen shavings as bedding too. He has had a couple stuck sheds, but they are always removed with a light soak.

He has always been a great pet and never refused a feeding, even during shed. At first, he had trouble with deciding where to start eating, but once he reached a couple months he was incredible at feeding. However, lately I've had a lot of trouble.

In the past couple weeks Custard has been doing weird things during feeding time. He will start off fine, but when he has most of the mouse down (with the tail sticking out), he starts twisting around. His neck will twist into strange positions as if he's choking and he'll turn red as if he can't breathe. I've even heard him squeak out in this position before. It's almost like it's involuntary.

Ive been using the same size mice (large) for a while now. I'm only now switching to two medium mice because he's getting bigger. I dont know why he would suddenly start doing these behaviors.

Thank you so much for reading. I'm really worried about my baby. I was thinking it could be his spider morph or possibly that he just doesn't like the mouse tail in his way.
Any suggestions are welcome. I want to try and help him so he doesn't hurt himself.

[Codil7]

I have a male spider banana ball python. His name is Custard and I've owned him for a little over a year. I imagine he's only a year and a half, and around 2 feet, 7 inches in length. I have yet to weigh him, but he shows no signs of being overweight.

His temps are high 80s in his warm spot (with belly heater), and low 70s on his cold spot. The ambient humidity is usually high 50s to mid 60s in the winter, mid 60s to mid 70s in the summer. Both sides have adequate hiding spots and his tank is 30 gallons. I use aspen shavings as bedding too. He has had a couple stuck sheds, but they are always removed with a light soak.

He has always been a great pet and never refused a feeding, even during shed. At first, he had trouble with deciding where to start eating, but once he reached a couple months he was incredible at feeding. However, lately I've had a lot of trouble.

In the past couple weeks Custard has been doing weird things during feeding time. He will start off fine, but when he has most of the mouse down (with the tail sticking out), he starts twisting around. His neck will twist into strange positions as if he's choking and he'll turn red as if he can't breathe. I've even heard him squeak out in this position before. It's almost like it's involuntary.

Ive been using the same size mice (large) for a while now. I'm only now switching to two medium mice because he's getting bigger. I dont know why he would suddenly start doing these behaviors.

Thank you so much for reading. I'm really worried about my baby. I was thinking it could be his spider morph or possibly that he just doesn't like the mouse tail in his way.
Any suggestions are welcome. I want to try and help him so he doesn't hurt himself.

It honestly just sounds like the spider gene starting to show its true colors with age. The wobble and corkscrewing with the head are all affiliated with that. Some have it worse than others but only time will tell. But I haven’t seen a snake “turn red” before so that’s something new to me. I’m sure someone on here that’s more experienced with spiders will have a better educated answer for you.


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[Caali]

It doesn't totally sound like the spider gene to me. Maybe the turning of the head and neck but turning red is something that has nothing to do with the Spider gene as far as I know. I have never heard of a snake that's turning red and I am not exactly sure how that''s supposed to work but I am gonna just take your word for it.
My thought would be that he might have trouble balancing himself (maybe due to the Spider gene).
Normally I would expect that Custard would start the whole head shaking thing when he sees the food. The Spider gene often shows itself when the snake gets excited but that doesn't seem to be the case. Doing it after he's almost finished eating the mouse seems weird to me.
You also said that the whole twisting and turning starts when only the tail is left. Normally the ball python would lift itself up when only the tail is left but yours seems to fail at exactly that. He has trouble raising his head properly.
The squeak (that's just an assumption) might be caused by that as well. Every constrictor has a small tube in their mouth that enables them to breath while swallowing somethng big. The twisting and turning might be making it difficult for him to breath.
I would also like to add that your temps are a bit off. You want to have something around 90 degrees on the hot side and around 80 degrees on the cold side. Your ball python has it really cold. Maybe that is also causing these symptoms.


On an unrelated note: Are you sure you're feeding him the right sized prey? He seems really small for 1,5 year old ball python and adult mice still seem quite small for him. Maybe increasing the food size would be more healthy for him.

[SDA]

Spider gene has nothing to do with this. Spiders actually are often the best eaters and any wobble does not interfere with their feeding so don't consider the gene a culprit. Age plays no factor in it either. I have an over 7 year old spider that has no feeding issues for example.

How are you measuring your temps? What are you using for heat and how are you controlling it (as in thermostat)? High 80s and low 70s seem off to me.

Ball pythons can not get "red" they lack the ability to get flushed so unless he has consumed a large amount of substrate or his glottis (little breathing tube that sticks out when they swallow a prey) is blocked, they are almost incapable of choking on a meal.

You just switched feed sizes but you do not know the weight of your snake. How are you heating and defrosting this prey? How fast between downing one mouse are you offering the second?

How warm is the prey when you offer it or are you offering live prey? How do you present it to the snake? Meaning how is it given... on tongs or tweezers or just tossed in the cage?

What else have you changed? Anything you can think of from decor to substrate to the heating/cooling of the house.

[MD_Pythons]

Spider gene has nothing to do with this. Spiders actually are often the best eaters and any wobble does not interfere with their feeding so don't consider the gene a culprit. Age plays no factor in it either. I have an over 7 year old spider that has no feeding issues for example.

I don't think we should just rule out the spider playing a part in this. Sometimes it can show up later in life, just because your spider is fine doesn't mean others will be. Some spiders have nero issues so bad they can't even strike.That said it could be anything, maybe stress or exposure to chemicals could be at play here.

[SherlockAstral]

Hello again everyone! I see some of you are a little confused.

So as for husbandry, I measure my temps with a ground level thermostat and hygrometer on both sides of the tank, it sticks to the glass. The 70 degrees is ONLY a thing during the winter months. It is closer to 83 degrees in the summer. And actually, Custard prefers his cold side.

As for his size, I was giving a very rough estimate. Custard is big, and very healthy. The length was something I guesstimated. I had no idea it would cause such a fuss. I've fed adult mice because they are the same circumference as his belly. But since he's so big now, I'm moving to two mediums because that would be closer to 1.3 times his belly size. However, I am considering getting larger prey very soon.

Regarding feeding, I switched to medium mice two days ago. I let the frozen mice thaw in the fridge, then I take them out and wrap them in a heated blanket. When I feed them to custard, they are slightly warm to the touch and a little bit of blood is coming from the mouses nose.
The mice I feed are local, and they keep their mouse scent. Custard always knows where to start eating.
I offer using tongs, and move it slowly along the bottom of his feeding tub. He always gets excited and strikes quickly.

When I fed the two medium mice, I waited about two minutes after the first one was in his belly to offer the second. He only began to twist on the first mouse, and was abolsutely normal on the second.

And on to turning red. As a banana, custard is very light in color. He has always gotten a shade of red during his feedings due to stretching his neck to eat. It does get worse when he twists, though. The red coloring is likely due to stretching or strain.

And finally, the spider gene. Custard, as a baby, had a bad wobble. He would corkscrew and wobble quite a bit, missing his strikes. However, as an adult, he is much more deliberate and rarely misses his strikes. He does not wobble nearly as much, and only occasionally disorients himself while his head is in midair.

He only acts like this at the end of feeding, while he's trying to move it back into his stomach. The twist isn't so much wild movements as it is getting his neck into a kink.

I hope I answered all of your questions. Thanks for the feedback.

[MD_Pythons]

Could you weigh him? That would give a better idea of proper prey size than length would. A kitchen scale should work for that. Weigh your feeders too if you can.

[SDA]

So as for husbandry, I measure my temps with a ground level thermostat and hygrometer on both sides of the tank, it sticks to the glass. The 70 degrees is ONLY a thing during the winter months. It is closer to 83 degrees in the summer. And actually, Custard prefers his cold side.

I think you meant thermometer (thermostat is a controller for heating sources). I am wondering if you have those analog thermometers and hygrometers you get at most pet stores.

Something like this?


If so those are not only wildly inaccurate but the adhesive on them can come off and get stuck to the snake. Most people here will recommend getting rid of those and upgrading to digital thermometers and an infrared heat gun to read accurate tempuratures.

The temperature of the bottom of the inside of the tank on the hot side where the under tank heater is should read approximately 90 degrees (88-90 is ideal). The cool side where the cool hide should read no less than 75 degrees and ideally 10 degrees cooler than the hot side so roughly 80 degrees. Using an analog thermometer to read lower 70s could mean it is lower than that.

More importantly do you have a thermostat for the under tank heater? Unregulated under tank heaters can heat to temps that can cause burns on snakes and should never be used without a thermostat.

I am concerned your heating is off and not being adjusted properly. This can cause issues with a snake feeding and with it being the winter months can cause issues with their digestion and feeding habits.

As for his size, I was giving a very rough estimate. Custard is big, and very healthy. The length was something I guesstimated. I had no idea it would cause such a fuss. I've fed adult mice because they are the same circumference as his belly. But since he's so big now, I'm moving to two mediums because that would be closer to 1.3 times his belly size. However, I am considering getting larger prey very soon.

Weighing your snake is the only measure to accurately gauge how they should feed, the size of the prey, and how often they should feed. It is very difficult to just guesstimate the weight of a snake and know if you are over feeding or under feeding. This isn't a fuss but we are trying to answer the root cause of feeding issues you rae reporting.

When I fed the two medium mice, I waited about two minutes after the first one was in his belly to offer the second. He only began to twist on the first mouse, and was abolsutely normal on the second.

He only acts like this at the end of feeding, while he's trying to move it back into his stomach. The twist isn't so much wild movements as it is getting his neck into a kink.

Again, this could be husbandry issues or could be due to changing prey size and feeding frequency. Feeding multiple prey items is not uncommon but if you noticed this behavioral change only when switching to multiple prey at one feeding, it might be best to switch back to old feeding habits and see if the behavior improves. You want to rule out changes first before making any husbandry or other switches.

However if multiple feedings are not causing the issue and feeding one rodent does the same thing (same with if you return to the previous size prey and the same thing happens) then you can look at your husbandry and see if you have anything that can improve.

What you do want to change is how you choose prey size. Weigh your snake and feed appropriate to size not visual interpretation. Granted the rule of thumb of prey no larger than the largest part of the snake still stands but weight is also a key factor.

Please take a look at this feed chart for a guideline on prey size compared to weight.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ing-Guidelines

[Nathanhimmerich]

When I read 'had a bad wobble' 'was corkscrewing in the past' and so on, then he's exhibiting bad motor control of the head later on specifically while feeding, I figure it's due to the neurological condition brought on because of the spider gene. I know there are great examples, but denial about the potential is just denial. The condition doesn't go away with age, but they might have better times and worse times. First thought would be husbandry adding stress and making the condition manifest worse, but your temps and humidity and general environment sound adequate at least, nearly ideal (just be careful about the cold side in the winter). The food item IN MY OPINION is judged by the belly of the animal, same circumference is fine. People might disagree about this, but it would not make issues at the mouth but further down if it were too big.

So basically I imagine it's an example of the possible negative aspect of spider balls, the neurological disorder giving bad motor skills of the head. I have had a bad experience with a definitely mentally disabled spider ball, and I don't intend on owning another because of it. But that's up to the individual owner. The denial of the condition altogether, however, that is not going to help educate. "I have good examples of healthy spider balls" does not mean they are all healthy.

[SherlockAstral]

My thermometer and hygrometer is attached using a suction cup. The belly heater is attached under the glass and is covered by substrate. He has never gotten any burns or shown any adverse effects to temperature.

This feeding issue came up out of nowhere. My temps have been the same for a year now. He always acts as any bp would. Relaxed, somewhat active before feeding time, and curious. He tongue flicks, he has bright black eyes.

I understand that my husbandry can be an issue when regarding adverse effects, but the fact of the matter is that nothing has changed. And I honestly feel a little upset that some of you think I am not caring for him properly.

Im going to try two things next feeding. I'm going to cut off the tail of the rodent, and weigh him to give a properly sized feeder. If these options don't work, I'll consider changing my setup.

Thank you all for the feedback. I'll take it all into consideration, especially the comments about the spider gene issues. I always keep a close eye on his feedings so I can intervene if he does anything detrimental to his health. Have a nice day everyone.