Signs of hunger, stress?

[iddah]

My bp hasn't eaten for nearly three weeks now, he is three months old, and weighed 70g when I took his weight recently. He had a successful shed and appears otherwise healthy, he has been using both of his hides, and I have observed him drinking from his water dish a couple of times, after which he has gone straight back into his hide, so in that regard, his behavior seems normal/healthy to me.

I'd say during the past three or four days or so, he has been displaying morning and daytime activity, which he has not done previously; I usually barely see him during the day, other than if I happen to catch him going for a drink, and then going back to hiding. He still uses his hides, but appears to be out far more than usual. From what I can tell, his movement is not erratic; but he does appear to be exploring his enclosure, including him climbing up on top of artificial plants and nosing the metal grate/screen of the top lid of his viv - - a behavior similar to the one he displayed when I first introduced him to his tank. I have read that "escape attempt behaviors" are a sign of a stressed snake, which is why I'm worried he may not be eating due to something stressing him out for some reason all of the sudden.

What is confusing to me though is that this behavior is completely unusual for him and he has only been doing this for a few days; he has not seemed stressed previously at all, nor has he been out much when it is light out, until now.

Due to an ambient temp drop in his tank, I had to get him either a CHE or an infrared, and I chose infrared for being more affordable, I have had to use it to get his ambient temps back to the normal range, could the infrared be a reason for his activity? When I turned it on he did almost immediately come up out of his hot spot, appeared to be looking upward toward the source of heat with his tongue flicking, and went straight into his cool side - - so he switched hides in favor of the one that is receiving added heat.

At this point, I'm not sure what to do in order to get him to eat, other than offer larger prey item because the rat pinkys are smaller than his midsection - - and since he has refused the rat pinkys I have offered, I was considering offering him a fuzzy next.

- His breeder has established him on f/t rat pinkys; he was fed five times at the breeder's.

- His humidity and temperatures are good; his hot side is set to 33C at all times, his cool side is back at 25.5 to 26C after I got the infrared for him, and his humidity is at 60% (75-77% during more humid days).

- Handling has been kept to a minimum, and I have not disturbed the snake.

- He is currently in a 10 gallon baby tank.

- The area around his enclosure is quiet, with very minimal movement/traffic around it.

- His enclosure is clean (no mold, feces, etc), he has not defecated, though I have removed small urates.

- The sides and the back of his tank are covered in black paper.

- He has two identical, low-ceiling plastic hides; with crumpled up paper towels inside; he uses both hides.

[tttaylorrr]

the behavior you describe definitely sounds like the snake is hungry and a bit stressed from it. i'm just going to go through your info and try to address what i can.

- His breeder has established him on f/t rat pinkys; he was fed five times at the breeder's.

even though the snake isn't eating right now, you need to up the prey size. follow the feeding chart below.

has the snake eaten for you since you've had them?

- His humidity and temperatures are good; his hot side is set to 33C at all times, his cool side is back at 25.5 to 26C after I got the infrared for him, and his humidity is at 60% (75-77% during more humid days).

hatchlings usually do better with a slightly lower hot spot temp around 88-89° F (31° C) but your temps sound good. maybe try lowering the hot spot temps a bit.

- Handling has been kept to a minimum, and I have not disturbed the snake.

continue to do so until the snake is eating regularly.

- He is currently in a 10 gallon baby tank.

- He has two identical, low-ceiling plastic hides; with crumpled up paper towels inside; he uses both hides.

what's the L x W x H of the enclosure? you might need to move the snake to an even smaller tub. i have Coffee Bean (90g+) in a 15 quart tub with almost comically small hides. what is the behavior when a prey item is presented? does the snake poke out then retreat, or is there 0 interest?

[iddah]

@tttaylorrr:

The snake has not eaten since I got him, and I have upgraded the prey item for him, from pinky to a fuzzy, the breeder has been notified of the snake not eating and she recommended that I maintain a 7-day period between his meals despite him not having taken any food. I just lowered my thermostat from 33C to 32C, so his hot spot should now be a bit cooler, and he has not been handled today at all, and I'm willing to forego handling altogether if it will help him start eating. As I said, though, handling him in general has been very minimal since I got him, and he has /not/ displayed any symptoms of stress until recently, it only just started a couple of days ago.

I'm unable to get the exact measurements of his enclosure at the moment and cannot remember them from the top of my head, but the breeder (who maintains her own snakes in a rack system) told me his enclosure is adequate for a baby, especially with the modifications I've made to the tank (covering the back and the sides, adding clutter). I would have gotten him size S hides but I was unable to get them from anywhere, including pet stores and online, they were all sold out, which is why I had to settle for the medium size hides he has in his enclosure right now, they seem to be working for him however since he is utilizing both of them, and I added the paper towels to make the hides appear more cramped and enclosed for his safety/security.

His behavior when presented with prey item is generally zero interest, he has not shown any "real" feeding behavior toward a prey item at any of the times I have offered him f/t, including when I have imitated live prey by gently wiggling the rat pinky, at best he comes closer, flicks his tongue, then retreats, after which there is no continued interest in the prey item. My snake also suffers from a slight wobble, which is why I've been trying to avoid imitating live too much, because I was told by his breeder it could increase his chances of missing a strike due to his wobble.

[tttaylorrr]

The snake has not eaten since I got him, and I have upgraded the prey item for him, from pinky to a fuzzy, the breeder has been notified of the snake not eating and she recommended that I maintain a 7-day period between his meals despite him not having taken any food. I just lowered my thermostat from 33C to 32C, so his hot spot should now be a bit cooler, and he has not been handled today at all, and I'm willing to forego handling altogether if it will help him start eating. As I said, though, handling him in general has been very minimal since I got him, and he has /not/ displayed any symptoms of stress until recently, it only just started a couple of days ago.

i agree with sticking to a 7-day schedule.

the behavior you're seeing is probably the snake realizing he's hungry, but since your husbandry might not be meeting his needs, and trying to go elsewhere. your husbandry is fine, but if the snake isn't eating, something's gotta give.

I'm unable to get the exact measurements of his enclosure at the moment and cannot remember them from the top of my head, but the breeder (who maintains her own snakes in a rack system) told me his enclosure is adequate for a baby, especially with the modifications I've made to the tank (covering the back and the sides, adding clutter). I would have gotten him size S hides but I was unable to get them from anywhere, including pet stores and online, they were all sold out, which is why I had to settle for the medium size hides he has in his enclosure right now, they seem to be working for him however since he is utilizing both of them, and I added the paper towels to make the hides appear more cramped and enclosed for his safety/security.

on paper the enclosure might be suitable, but in reality it's not since the snake isn't eating. monitor your husbandry LIKE A HAWK for the next week or so to ensure it's EXACTLY where you say it is. if the snake still won't eat, we're going to have to try something else: moving him to a tub, smaller hides. not every baby snake can thrive in a "big" enclosure right away, and that's okay! you've done everything right so far but ur lil beep just isn't having it. there's a reason Deborah's write-up on this topic is a stickied tread and is constantly referenced in these situations: it WORKS. your situation is not new and is almost without a doubt husbandry-related. over the next week or so you should start gathering the supplies needed for "The Deb Treatment" as i like to call it. we gotta get that baby eating!

His behavior when presented with prey item is generally zero interest, he has not shown any "real" feeding behavior toward a prey item at any of the times I have offered him f/t, including when I have imitated live prey by gently wiggling the rat pinky, at best he comes closer, flicks his tongue, then retreats, after which there is no continued interest in the prey item. My snake also suffers from a slight wobble, which is why I've been trying to avoid imitating live too much, because I was told by his breeder it could increase his chances of missing a strike due to his wobble.

this sounds very typical for a snake that has improper husbandry (not the wobble of course). reference my advice above and we'll get him on the right track.

[hollowlaughter]

May have to cave and swap out the red light for the CHE too. Yours might be one of the ones who's unable to tolerate the light.

[iddah]

Thank you so much for linking me that thread and the advice.

I'll give Solidus one more week or so; and then I'll follow the instructions on the stickied thread, at first I wasn't anxious or frustrated, but now this is starting to stress me out, too, I would literally give my kidney for this baby to eat lol, and like any responsible snake owner I obviously want my guy to be healthy and happy. I've been keeping obscenely good track of my husbandry lol since I live in a country where the weather makes everything difficult and affects indoors temps and humidity a lot as well, so I'm certain it is unrelated to the temps and humidity, but could be the enclosure itself, or sizes of his hides.

I do have these plastic IKEA storage tubs already, I've been using them to store substrate, and since a tub might prove to be better for him at least until he gets to around 200g and starts to eat on regular basis, I started wondering if the ones I have at hand would be ideal/sufficient?





The tub is 40 x 30 x 18 cm.

So, what I'm planning to do next is:

- No handling whatsoever
- Try providing smaller hides
- Switch infrared to CHE and see if it makes a difference (his stressed out/overtly active behavior DID start about two days after I got him the infrared)
- Continue keep track of husbandry and numbers
- Continue to offer larger prey item (fuzzy)
- Move him to a tub and follow the instructions if he still hasn't eaten within a week from now

[tttaylorrr]

Thank you so much for linking me that thread and the advice.

I'll give Solidus one more week or so; and then I'll follow the instructions on the stickied thread, at first I wasn't anxious or frustrated, but now this is starting to stress me out, too, I would literally give my kidney for this baby to eat lol, and like any responsible snake owner I obviously want my guy to be healthy and happy. I've been keeping obscenely good track of my husbandry lol since I live in a country where the weather makes everything difficult and affects indoors temps and humidity a lot as well, so I'm certain it is unrelated to the temps and humidity, but could be the enclosure itself, or sizes of his hides.

I do have these plastic IKEA storage tubs already, I've been using them to store substrate, and since a tub might prove to be better for him at least until he gets to around 200g and starts to eat on regular basis, I started wondering if the ones I have at hand would be ideal/sufficient?





The tub is 40 x 30 x 18 cm.

So, what I'm planning to do next is:

- No handling whatsoever
- Try providing smaller hides
- Switch infrared to CHE and see if it makes a difference (his stressed out/overtly active behavior DID start about two days after I got him the infrared)
- Continue keep track of husbandry and numbers
- Continue to offer larger prey item (fuzzy)
- Move him to a tub and follow the instructions if he still hasn't eaten within a week from now

Deborah recommends a 6qt tub in her thread, and i can't say i can offer advice that's against her recommendations. HOWEVER, i'm using the same tub size in those pics (15qt) for lil Coffee Bean. with air holes (of course), those tubs can be suitable, but again, Deborah recommends a 6qt.

your plan moving forward sounds good. that's an interesting bit you mentioned about the bulb...maybe you can try switching that out right away and offer food on his next scheduled feeding. if you still get a refusal, i say it's time for The Deb Treatment^TM.

[iddah]

I'll have to see if I can get my hands on a 6qt, but if the tub I already have is suitable, I'll most likely end up using that one.

He refused his food even before the infrared so I doubt it's the the cause of him not eating, he might be sensitive to the light and that is why his activity has increased so much, combined with the hunger he's feeling, but I think I'll switch it out to a CHE, just in case.

Thanks again, I will post an update in Solidus' thread when I know how best to proceed after I've given him one more week, but as of right now, I'll probably have to re-house him in a tub instead of a tank, and honestly, if the tub works, he can remain in one even past 200g as far as I'm concerned, if he's healthy and begins to eat.

[tttaylorrr]

I'll have to see if I can get my hands on a 6qt, but if the tub I already have is suitable, I'll most likely end up using that one.

He refused his food even before the infrared so I doubt it's the the cause of him not eating, he might be sensitive to the light and that is why his activity has increased so much, combined with the hunger he's feeling, but I think I'll switch it out to a CHE, just in case.

Thanks again, I will post an update in Solidus' thread when I know how best to proceed after I've given him one more week, but as of right now, I'll probably have to re-house him in a tub instead of a tank, and honestly, if the tub works, he can remain in one even past 200g as far as I'm concerned, if he's healthy and begins to eat.

keep us posted

[dr del]

I'm sorry if I missed it but how are you heating the F/T rat fuzzy?